sitting out a sit and go

[Dr_Shakes 0]

When this happens to me I usually just try to pay attention and raise the post and folder whenever I have a stong hand or good position. If someone reraises I will release unless I have a monster (AA or KK maybe QQ). Then I will play the flop cautiously, only putting alot of chips in if I have flopped something very strong. Usually collusion isn't needed, the other people at the table have noticed and without even talking we will take turns stealing their dead money. I will even be nice to my opponents who haven't noticed yet and type "BET" if they are checking to a post and folder who is auto checking behind them. Is this collusion? Just wondering?

[wilheldp 0]

I was playing a $10, Limit O/8 SnG the other day on Party. I think we were on the 3rd or 4th level, there were still 8 people in, and I was sitting 3rd in chips. Well, it had been a long day, and I was tired. I ended up dozing off. I woke up about 45 minutes later to see that I had taken 3rd place, and won $20. Then I scrolled up through the chat, and apparently it had allowed me to play all of my big blinds, and I had won every hand. They other two guys at the table were saying things like "he's not even playing, and he's going to win" and "he was doing pretty well before he quit". I got a good chuckle out of it...then I went to bed.

[mulhs82 2]

If I run into someone whose sitting out on the bubble, I will make a personal decision to make sure that they don't beat me. I have never typed into the chat box that we should blind the guy out, but I make sure that if I am going to play a hand it's a premium hand. I also get the feeling that you don't reallly need to type anything in the chat box to accomplish getting to the money. If people are paying attention, they know what needs to be done in this situation. I have played with people who are ultra aggressive, but when they see the bubble and a person sitting out is in their way, well the folds start coming quickly.

[ChuckSty 0]

If I run into someone whose sitting out on the bubble, I will make a personal decision to make sure that they don't beat me. I have never typed into the chat box that we should blind the guy out, but I make sure that if I am going to play a hand it's a premium hand. I also get the feeling that you don't reallly need to type anything in the chat box to accomplish getting to the money. If people are paying attention, they know what needs to be done in this situation. I have played with people who are ultra aggressive, but when they see the bubble and a person sitting out is in their way, well the folds start coming quickly.

yeah, that's more what i was implying.

[PT0077 0]

When the 3 players decide to blind the guy whos not playing out by folding to the blind, and raising his bb.. thats called collusion, and its illegal on online poker sites

It is collusion if it is discussed in the chat box. It's not if it just happens. It should be an unspoken thing if it is bubble time and someone is sitting out that they should be taken out before proceeding.

[BaneTheBastard 0]

One time I was in a SNG on Party (I believe it was a $30) and was having such bad connection problems that I was losing my connection every 3-4 hands.  This was driving me crazy and holding up the game, so I just basically quit.  I later found out that I finished 3rd.  After this I tried an experiment and signed up for a $5 SNG and didn't play.  I figured these players should be worse than the $30 players and I might cash again.  It didn't work, as I finished 5th.  I didn't try it again, but if you really want to know what happens, try it in a cheap SNG and figure you are just losing "curiousity money", or try it for play money.

Sadly it works in party poker freeroll.

[SAM_Hard8 50]

One time I was playing a SNG and my DSL line crapped out. I was second in chips and there were 5 people left. The next day I when I logged on I found out I finished third. I couldn't believe it. Another time I was at a table of six and one guy was disconnected. When he was blinded down to all-in at the big blind 4 of us also called. He had pocket A's and quadrupled up. Three more time he got blinded down and still won the pot. He eventually finished third. It was one of the most amazing things I have ever seen.

[Guest Anonymous]

i've seen sng's where someone sat out and got 3rd money twice.......no one at the table was interested in blinding the guy out. weird.

Playchip tables don't count.

[Guest Anonymous]

just wondering for a one person nl he sit and go with 9 players1. If you sat out the whole thing what ave place do you think you would finish and what percentage would you finish 2nd or 3rd manually folding not sitting out2. If you sat out for 20 minutes and then played how many people would you figure would be left and how much of a disadvantage do you think you'd be at assuming you studied the others betting patters3, if you doubled up early and sat out how would this affect one and two

1. Sitting out the whole thing will almost never allow you to finish in the money.2. Depending on what site you are at, this number will vary. At PP, I would say 2-4 people would be gone. At poker stars, one or two less on average. At UB, for $10 tables and above at most one or two will be gone on average.3. You may be able to make it to at least the bubble, but you are sacrificing an incredible opportunity to start bullying your table around, which is one of the easiest ways to win SnGs with an early chip lead.

[lboarts 0]

start bullying your table around, which is one of the easiest ways to win SnGs with an early chip leadI've seen so many people try this and fail, its not even funny. I absolutely love when people do this. I immediately go into "ambush predator" mode. If you double up early in a SnG, you're just asking for trouble, trying to bully a full table. Stick to a tight aggressive game and protect your chip lead. At the higher level SnGs, this is even more true, because the quality of your opponents is overall better and most know how to deal with a bully.While aggression is a key factor in NL holdem, patience ranks higher, IMO. Selective aggression far outweighs blind aggression, which is the type most bullies incorporate.There are times to play the bully, however. One is on the bubble against smaller stacks. Another is when you're ITM on any stack. In both cases your playing short handed. Bullying a full table is only asking for trouble.

[Dr_Shakes 0]

start bullying your table around, which is one of the easiest ways to win SnGs with an early chip leadI've seen so many people try this and fail, its not even funny.  I absolutely love when people do this.  I immediately go into "ambush predator" mode.  If you double up early in a SnG, you're just asking for trouble, trying to bully a full table.  Stick to a tight aggressive game and protect your chip lead.  At the higher level SnGs, this is even more true, because the quality of your opponents is overall better and most know how to deal with a bully.While aggression is a key factor in NL holdem, patience ranks higher, IMO.  Selective aggression far outweighs blind aggression, which is the type most bullies incorporate.There are times to play the bully, however.  One is on the bubble against smaller stacks.  Another is when you're ITM on any stack.  In both cases your playing short handed.  Bullying a full table is only asking for trouble.

Exactly! Well said.

[Pudge714 0]

First off, you will never make the money by sitting out, so don't try it.  I play SnGs full time, and Ive seen this tried.  When we get to 4 handed, I simply suggest to the others that we blind out the guy sitting out before battling each other.  I've folded AA preflop to ensure someone sitting out does not make the money.Secondly, sitting out the first 10 min isnt too harmful, but don't sit out any longer than that.  Once the blinds start going up, you'll be losing chips that you're going to need.  If you're sitting in front of your pc, however, studying betting patterns, there is really no good reason to sit out.I've seen people who will sit out until they get a playable hand, then sit down just in time, hoping to induce action this way.  It's really kind of pitiful to see the lengths people will go to gain an advantage on their opponents.  When I see people doing this it tells me they are not confident enough in their own abilities and they feel they need an edge, and look for absurd ways to gain that edge.Even doubling up early then sitting out will not get you in the money.

Folding AA is retarted I am sorry when I have chips and some is on post and fold I get super agressive I want to keep the guy sitting out alive, so I can steal the other guys chips and build up a massive chip lead. In fact one time three handed in the player sitting out blinded all in and I folded my sb, so I could get the chips of the other guy who was there, no way was he going to lose to a guy posting and folding so he would not get involved in a pot with me, I ended up winning the SNG because of this strategy. Even if you are short or medium stacked with AA, it is a negative EV play to fold it it is that simple.

[Guest Anonymous]

start bullying your table around, which is one of the easiest ways to win SnGs with an early chip leadI've seen so many people try this and fail, its not even funny.  I absolutely love when people do this.  I immediately go into "ambush predator" mode.  If you double up early in a SnG, you're just asking for trouble, trying to bully a full table.  Stick to a tight aggressive game and protect your chip lead.  At the higher level SnGs, this is even more true, because the quality of your opponents is overall better and most know how to deal with a bully.While aggression is a key factor in NL holdem, patience ranks higher, IMO.  Selective aggression far outweighs blind aggression, which is the type most bullies incorporate.There are times to play the bully, however.  One is on the bubble against smaller stacks.  Another is when you're ITM on any stack.  In both cases your playing short handed.  Bullying a full table is only asking for trouble.

Exactly! Well said.

Funny how you can disagree without asking me what my definition of proper bullying consists of. Yes, there are lots of people that become overaggressive after building up early chip leads, and in effect donk off their stacks relatively quickly. That is not what I am talking about.If you think not pushing a big early chip lead is a solid SnG stradegy, I want you at my table.

[lboarts 0]

First off, you will never make the money by sitting out, so don't try it.  I play SnGs full time, and Ive seen this tried.  When we get to 4 handed, I simply suggest to the others that we blind out the guy sitting out before battling each other.  I've folded AA preflop to ensure someone sitting out does not make the money.Secondly, sitting out the first 10 min isnt too harmful, but don't sit out any longer than that.  Once the blinds start going up, you'll be losing chips that you're going to need.  If you're sitting in front of your pc, however, studying betting patterns, there is really no good reason to sit out.I've seen people who will sit out until they get a playable hand, then sit down just in time, hoping to induce action this way.  It's really kind of pitiful to see the lengths people will go to gain an advantage on their opponents.  When I see people doing this it tells me they are not confident enough in their own abilities and they feel they need an edge, and look for absurd ways to gain that edge.Even doubling up early then sitting out will not get you in the money.

Folding AA is retarted I am sorry when I have chips and some is on post and fold I get super agressive I want to keep the guy sitting out alive, so I can steal the other guys chips and build up a massive chip lead. In fact one time three handed in the player sitting out blinded all in and I folded my sb, so I could get the chips of the other guy who was there, no way was he going to lose to a guy posting and folding so he would not get involved in a pot with me, I ended up winning the SNG because of this strategy. Even if you are short or medium stacked with AA, it is a negative EV play to fold it it is that simple.

OK, let me clarify. I was large (had 1/2 the chips in play) and we just got to 4 handed. I was on the button, UTG moves all in on a small stack (smallest was sit out guy). Before calling his all in, UTG sais "I probably shoulda waited out "sit out guy"". I then said, "OK, I'll fold AA here so you can do that." I was so large I didn't mind folding here, and I went on to win the trny anyway. Agree, disagree, flame me, whatever.

[dank773 0]

Now for my little story on this topic. In a $20 sng on Bodog, one guy was up to about 2500 in chips with 8 people left. He proceded to sit out and get blinded down. On the bubble, I was 2nd shortest stack (sit out guy was short) with about 1300 (sit out had about 1100), and the blinds at 250-500. I'm on the button and I pick up 99, I didn't like the idea of just waiting until sit out guy got blinded off, as it would leave with very few chips to fight with 3 handed. Well, the hand that I pick up 99, sit out guy comes back to the game and moves all in. I feel like I have to call here and he has 9-10. You all know the rest of the story, he caught a straight, and I was all in the on the next hand and out on the bubble. Don't know what point I'm trying to make here. I don't necessarily think it's advantageous to sit out at any point of a sng. However, when I do double or triple up early, I usually try and protect my chip lead, and only push people around occasionally.

[lboarts 0]

start bullying your table around, which is one of the easiest ways to win SnGs with an early chip leadI've seen so many people try this and fail, its not even funny.  I absolutely love when people do this.  I immediately go into "ambush predator" mode.  If you double up early in a SnG, you're just asking for trouble, trying to bully a full table.  Stick to a tight aggressive game and protect your chip lead.  At the higher level SnGs, this is even more true, because the quality of your opponents is overall better and most know how to deal with a bully.While aggression is a key factor in NL holdem, patience ranks higher, IMO.  Selective aggression far outweighs blind aggression, which is the type most bullies incorporate.There are times to play the bully, however.  One is on the bubble against smaller stacks.  Another is when you're ITM on any stack.  In both cases your playing short handed.  Bullying a full table is only asking for trouble.

Exactly! Well said.

Funny how you can disagree without asking me what my definition of proper bullying consists of. Yes, there are lots of people that become overaggressive after building up early chip leads, and in effect donk off their stacks relatively quickly. That is not what I am talking about.If you think not pushing a big early chip lead is a solid SnG stradegy, I want you at my table.

OK, I'll bite. What is YOUR definition of proper bullying?

[Merlopj 0]

my favorite is when Sit Out guy is in BB, and one limper. Then it gets checked down and Sit Out guy takes the pot. One little raise or bet and he automatically folds, but some dummies don't know that. I dunno about higher buy ins, but see it at $5 tables on Pokerroom and it cracks me up.As far as sitting out, it's a crapshoot to try and money. That said, I usually fold thru the 1st 2 rounds unless it's a monster or my limped BB hits the flop. That strategy usually helps weed out the loose callers that suck out on you without risking many chips early. By then you appear as a rock anyway and can win most pots w/o a showdown and some big raises against smarter players left.

[lind0 0]

Why would anybody ever sit out as a strategy? This makes absolutely no sense. Why not just sit in and not play a hand unless you get something huge. That way you can atleast capitalize if you're dealt a monster and you're still staying alive deep into the tournament unless someone cracks your big pair.

[Guest Anonymous]

start bullying your table around, which is one of the easiest ways to win SnGs with an early chip leadI've seen so many people try this and fail, its not even funny.  I absolutely love when people do this.  I immediately go into "ambush predator" mode.  If you double up early in a SnG, you're just asking for trouble, trying to bully a full table.  Stick to a tight aggressive game and protect your chip lead.  At the higher level SnGs, this is even more true, because the quality of your opponents is overall better and most know how to deal with a bully.While aggression is a key factor in NL holdem, patience ranks higher, IMO.  Selective aggression far outweighs blind aggression, which is the type most bullies incorporate.There are times to play the bully, however.  One is on the bubble against smaller stacks.  Another is when you're ITM on any stack.  In both cases your playing short handed.  Bullying a full table is only asking for trouble.

Exactly! Well said.

Funny how you can disagree without asking me what my definition of proper bullying consists of. Yes, there are lots of people that become overaggressive after building up early chip leads, and in effect donk off their stacks relatively quickly. That is not what I am talking about.If you think not pushing a big early chip lead is a solid SnG stradegy, I want you at my table.

OK, I'll bite. What is YOUR definition of proper bullying?

SnG bullying, play tight in general but:1) Always come in raising. Never be one of the overcallers in a long string of limpers. Even if you would normally do this with suited connectors, Ax suited, Kx suited, etc. do this no longer. A considerable raise is better, although play these hands less often. You also want to create a looser image in general because as the dominant stack you will automatically get less action otherwise.2) look for someone overplaying their hands. A third party at your table will eventually take a shot at him while he's on a steal. Come over the top of that third party regardless of what you have. Most of the time he will have Ax or two face cards and will fold. The original better should usually have the good sense to fold as well with two others displaying considerable strength.3) Attacking the #2 stack at the table is more profitable than attacking the short stack, and usually more effective.4) Make any play that you figure will result in a coinflip for less than half your chips and over 3/4 of someone else's. Just make sure you are the one making the initial bet. The added chance of him folding makes this a better than even money practice.There are other more subtle changes to make to your gameplan, but I won't give away all my secrets .

[Dr_Shakes 0]

start bullying your table around, which is one of the easiest ways to win SnGs with an early chip leadI've seen so many people try this and fail, its not even funny.  I absolutely love when people do this.  I immediately go into "ambush predator" mode.  If you double up early in a SnG, you're just asking for trouble, trying to bully a full table.  Stick to a tight aggressive game and protect your chip lead.  At the higher level SnGs, this is even more true, because the quality of your opponents is overall better and most know how to deal with a bully.While aggression is a key factor in NL holdem, patience ranks higher, IMO.  Selective aggression far outweighs blind aggression, which is the type most bullies incorporate.There are times to play the bully, however.  One is on the bubble against smaller stacks.  Another is when you're ITM on any stack.  In both cases your playing short handed.  Bullying a full table is only asking for trouble.

Exactly! Well said.

Funny how you can disagree without asking me what my definition of proper bullying consists of. Yes, there are lots of people that become overaggressive after building up early chip leads, and in effect donk off their stacks relatively quickly. That is not what I am talking about.If you think not pushing a big early chip lead is a solid SnG stradegy, I want you at my table.

OK, I'll bite. What is YOUR definition of proper bullying?

SnG bullying, play tight in general but:1) Always come in raising. Never be one of the overcallers in a long string of limpers. Even if you would normally do this with suited connectors, Ax suited, Kx suited, etc. do this no longer. A considerable raise is better, although play these hands less often. You also want to create a looser image in general because as the dominant stack you will automatically get less action otherwise.2) look for someone overplaying their hands. A third party at your table will eventually take a shot at him while he's on a steal. Come over the top of that third party regardless of what you have. Most of the time he will have Ax or two face cards and will fold. The original better should usually have the good sense to fold as well with two others displaying considerable strength.3) Attacking the #2 stack at the table is more profitable than attacking the short stack, and usually more effective.4) Make any play that you figure will result in a coinflip for less than half your chips and over 3/4 of someone else's. Just make sure you are the one making the initial bet. The added chance of him folding makes this a better than even money practice.There are other more subtle changes to make to your gameplan, but I won't give away all my secrets .

Thanks you make some interesting points. I especially agree with #3. Trying to bully a small stack is almost worthless unless they are extremely weak tight.I will try #1 to see how it works. However it only works if people fold to strength like they should, too often I think I would find medium (medium low) stacks who are willing to gamble with a small pair or KQ or even an Ace medium card. Probably depends on how tight the table is in general.As for #2. I just don't see how you can have a good enough "read" to push with any two. Seems like asking to walk into a monster.I also like #4 and will start looking for those situations.Thanks for the input. I think I was agreeing with lboarts becacuse I often see big stacks blow their leading playing too many hands and too agressively ( i love setting traps for these people) :-)

[Guest Anonymous]

As for #2.  I just don't see how you can have a good enough "read" to push with any two.  Seems like asking to walk into a monster.

Haha. Tricks of the trade. How to get a good enough read on someone coming over the top of an overaggresive player with only Ax or Kx?He normally has around 1200 in chips (we're assuming less than 5 orbits overall as you have doubled up early on - and starting stacks were 1500) and has either limped, or called a minimum raise a few times, and has had the same person come over the top of him forcing him to fold everytime either preflop, or post flop (in which case the villain consistantly makes a pot sized bet forcing all to fold).Frustrated, he will be looking for a chance to take a stand against this fellow, with relatively weak holdings (he will just want to have the overaggressive player beat), and this is a great way to get an easy few hundred chips by coming over the top. He assumes everyone else thinks he is tight because he has folded a few times to signs of strength, so with his raise he fully expects to be heads up. Always happens. And I'd say I get caught doing this less than a quarter of the time. And those times I do get caught, I get a lucky flop every now and then, further worsening my image much to my delight.The hardest thing to do in a sit and go is to ensure you get action after doubling up early. If you get a second monster early on, its useless if noone will pay you off. You don't want people folding to your aces when you make a small raise after not playing for 30 hands while sitting on your 3K in chips.

[jdquads 0]

Kill them all I hate it when a sitter outer goes all in and wins the final fricking hand so whe have to go through it again.

[Guest Anonymous]

Kill them all I hate it when a sitter outer goes all in and wins the final fricking hand so whe have to go through it again.

Aggravates me too. How hard is it to just sit there and fold all your hands to at least give the impression of a fair play attitude. At least open another table and play two games at once if you find sitting on a huge stack and playing tighter than a virgin boring.

[lboarts 0]

start bullying your table around, which is one of the easiest ways to win SnGs with an early chip leadI've seen so many people try this and fail, its not even funny.  I absolutely love when people do this.  I immediately go into "ambush predator" mode.  If you double up early in a SnG, you're just asking for trouble, trying to bully a full table.  Stick to a tight aggressive game and protect your chip lead.  At the higher level SnGs, this is even more true, because the quality of your opponents is overall better and most know how to deal with a bully.While aggression is a key factor in NL holdem, patience ranks higher, IMO.  Selective aggression far outweighs blind aggression, which is the type most bullies incorporate.There are times to play the bully, however.  One is on the bubble against smaller stacks.  Another is when you're ITM on any stack.  In both cases your playing short handed.  Bullying a full table is only asking for trouble.

Exactly! Well said.

Funny how you can disagree without asking me what my definition of proper bullying consists of. Yes, there are lots of people that become overaggressive after building up early chip leads, and in effect donk off their stacks relatively quickly. That is not what I am talking about.If you think not pushing a big early chip lead is a solid SnG stradegy, I want you at my table.

OK, I'll bite. What is YOUR definition of proper bullying?

SnG bullying, play tight in general but:1) Always come in raising. Never be one of the overcallers in a long string of limpers. Even if you would normally do this with suited connectors, Ax suited, Kx suited, etc. do this no longer. A considerable raise is better, although play these hands less often. You also want to create a looser image in general because as the dominant stack you will automatically get less action otherwise.2) look for someone overplaying their hands. A third party at your table will eventually take a shot at him while he's on a steal. Come over the top of that third party regardless of what you have. Most of the time he will have Ax or two face cards and will fold. The original better should usually have the good sense to fold as well with two others displaying considerable strength.3) Attacking the #2 stack at the table is more profitable than attacking the short stack, and usually more effective.4) Make any play that you figure will result in a coinflip for less than half your chips and over 3/4 of someone else's. Just make sure you are the one making the initial bet. The added chance of him folding makes this a better than even money practice.There are other more subtle changes to make to your gameplan, but I won't give away all my secrets .

1 and 4 are sound strategies, but not ones I would consider to be bullying tactics. 2 and 3 are a couple reasons why most people who get large early piss away their stacks and finish out of the money. Coming over top of a reraiser with nothing is just asking your chips to go away, and targeting the #2 stack is not, IMHO, the way to go. You're advocating attacking the one stack that can do the most damage to your stack. Target the short stacks and keep applying pressure to them, and avoid mixing it up with the other large stacks unless you're sure you have the best of it.

[Guest Anonymous]

start bullying your table around, which is one of the easiest ways to win SnGs with an early chip leadI've seen so many people try this and fail, its not even funny.  I absolutely love when people do this.  I immediately go into "ambush predator" mode.  If you double up early in a SnG, you're just asking for trouble, trying to bully a full table.  Stick to a tight aggressive game and protect your chip lead.  At the higher level SnGs, this is even more true, because the quality of your opponents is overall better and most know how to deal with a bully.While aggression is a key factor in NL holdem, patience ranks higher, IMO.  Selective aggression far outweighs blind aggression, which is the type most bullies incorporate.There are times to play the bully, however.  One is on the bubble against smaller stacks.  Another is when you're ITM on any stack.  In both cases your playing short handed.  Bullying a full table is only asking for trouble.

Exactly! Well said.

Funny how you can disagree without asking me what my definition of proper bullying consists of. Yes, there are lots of people that become overaggressive after building up early chip leads, and in effect donk off their stacks relatively quickly. That is not what I am talking about.If you think not pushing a big early chip lead is a solid SnG stradegy, I want you at my table.

OK, I'll bite. What is YOUR definition of proper bullying?

SnG bullying, play tight in general but:1) Always come in raising. Never be one of the overcallers in a long string of limpers. Even if you would normally do this with suited connectors, Ax suited, Kx suited, etc. do this no longer. A considerable raise is better, although play these hands less often. You also want to create a looser image in general because as the dominant stack you will automatically get less action otherwise.2) look for someone overplaying their hands. A third party at your table will eventually take a shot at him while he's on a steal. Come over the top of that third party regardless of what you have. Most of the time he will have Ax or two face cards and will fold. The original better should usually have the good sense to fold as well with two others displaying considerable strength.3) Attacking the #2 stack at the table is more profitable than attacking the short stack, and usually more effective.4) Make any play that you figure will result in a coinflip for less than half your chips and over 3/4 of someone else's. Just make sure you are the one making the initial bet. The added chance of him folding makes this a better than even money practice.There are other more subtle changes to make to your gameplan, but I won't give away all my secrets .

1 and 4 are sound strategies, but not ones I would consider to be bullying tactics. 2 and 3 are a couple reasons why most people who get large early censored away their stacks and finish out of the money. Coming over top of a reraiser with nothing is just asking your chips to go away, and targeting the #2 stack is not, IMHO, the way to go. You're advocating attacking the one stack that can do the most damage to your stack. Target the short stacks and keep applying pressure to them, and avoid mixing it up with the other large stacks unless you're sure you have the best of it.

Your quote says that scared money never wins, and yet you don't want to put pressure on the stack that can do the most damage to you....do you play $5 SnGs or $50 ones? Different atmosphere altogether.From your comments, sounds like $5 ones.Actually, I don't know why I'm getting defensive. I keep forgetting that educating potential opponents is -EV.