what makes pros so different from us?

[MichaelShakes 0]

I think the question was, "What makes professional poker players so special and successful?" and "If phil ivey or daniel came to one of the home games would he win every time? "Not, What is the definition of a professional?And If Phil or DN came over to play poker; they would win most of the time/ if not every time. Why, not because of the definission of professional, but because they can.What makes professional poker players so successful?See my last post and other posts similar to that one.

[gadjet 11]

Pro's are better then xyz because they are playing A LOT MORE than xyz player, they can read people A LOT BETTER then xyz player, they know money management A LOT BETTER then xyz player, they know pot odds and percentages A LOT BETTER than xyz player, they keep their composure A LOT BETTER than xyz player, they know how and when to bluff/raise/check/fold A LOT BETTER than xyz player.

Majore problems with this post...1. Playing a lot more, I'd disagree there are tons of regular joe average players playing everyday for 6-10 hours live at my casino, if you look on this forum you'd find even more players who MULTI-table x hours a day, to a ridiculous amount of hands... there are players here who have played more hands in a year than I'd wager Brunson has in his lifetime. So that is not what makes them the best. 2. Money management has nothing to do with it, there are tons of pros who have been broke multiple times in their careers, check out DN's comments somewhere recently where he laughed at how far out of his bankroll he's played. This was in reference to the speculation on his bankroll cause he can afford to play $500,000 heads up...

[Dirtydutch 8]

People could learn so much form Bluff Magazine ( the only magazine stocked by Sams Club).

I wipe my ass with Bluff Magazine, because "All In" magazine is so much cooler.

Damn!

[Dirtydutch 8]

I think they sell All-In at Big Lots.

[greatwhite 0]

Bad player- doesn't know what they are doingOk player- Just plays the cardsGood player- Figures out what his opponent hasPro- Knows what the other player has and then makes them believe what they want their opponent to believeAnyone could master the basics or math of the game, but it takes skill to make your opponent believe you have the best or the worst hand when you have the opposite.

[DeadMoney6545 0]

Smasharoooooos wrote:

No. They wouldn't win everytime against a monkey shitting on the floor with the words "Call, raise, fold" written randomly on it.

Absolutely Fucking priceless... Ya Clownshoe...

[rocksquid 50]

I am going to guess that they are more aware of the odds and percentages of hitting certain outs.He asked what made pros diffrent, not what made people with IQs above 60 diffrent.

60 isn't a good IQ score?

[DeadMoney6545 0]

Under most IQ screenings i believe below eighty is considered mentally disabled..could be wrong....

[rocksquid 50]

Under most IQ screenings i believe below eighty is considered mentally disabled..could be wrong....

phew. good thing I scored higher than 80 on Tickle Test.

[Stylin_Fish 0]

Of course one big difference is their experience in the game. Most of the pros have been playing way longer than most of us so they have been in most every situation and know what to do in each one. Aggression is key to, they know when to push and when to sit back. I think the experience is the biggest part though, learning tells and just learning how to get a successful read on someone.

[Scanner313 0]

I think what separates pros from the average guy is experience. The more you play, the more you learn, the better you get. Some people are just quicker at absorbing information than others, so just playing a lot doesn't make the difference. It's what you learn during that play that counts.Think of it this way, you could read every good poker book on the market 20 times over and gain all of the book knowledge possible, and you'd definitely be better in your first live outing than another rookie who didn't read those books. But, for all of the knowledge you gained from those books there has got to be much more out there that you can only get from years of experience.Anyway, that's just my $.02. I'm interested to hear DirtyDutch's take on my comments. He always makes me laugh.

[MichaelShakes 0]

Pro's are better then xyz because they are playing A LOT MORE than xyz player, they can read people A LOT BETTER then xyz player, they know money management A LOT BETTER then xyz player, they know pot odds and percentages A LOT BETTER than xyz player, they keep their composure A LOT BETTER than xyz player, they know how and when to bluff/raise/check/fold A LOT BETTER than xyz player.

Majore problems with this post...1. Playing a lot more, I'd disagree there are tons of regular joe average players playing everyday for 6-10 hours live at my casino, if you look on this forum you'd find even more players who MULTI-table x hours a day, to a ridiculous amount of hands... there are players here who have played more hands in a year than I'd wager Brunson has in his lifetime. So that is not what makes them the best. 2. Money management has nothing to do with it, there are tons of pros who have been broke multiple times in their careers, check out DN's comments somewhere recently where he laughed at how far out of his bankroll he's played. This was in reference to the speculation on his bankroll cause he can afford to play $500,000 heads up...

If these people are playing a lot more and learning as they are playing they should be getting better. If they are not, they will not get to be like DN and Phil Ivey. If they do, it's for an entirely different reason.If you ask DN or Phil Ivey about managing his money on those certain times where he or any pro went broke, they will tell you that this is where they should have practiced better money management.

[MichaelShakes 0]

Money management and Poker-http://www.bodog.com/frontlines/2004/issue...ment-skills.jspIt's not the most important thing in poker. But you do need it.

[speedz99 145]

Money management and Poker-http://www.bodog.com/frontlines/2004/issue...ment-skills.jspIt's not the most important thing in poker. But you do need it.

The funny thing is that almost all pros have gone broke a number of times in their careers because of poor money management.And the difference between us and them is the fact that they are better at poker and have bigger testicles.

[crowTrobot 2]

So you got cleaned out by Bubbles too? Damn chimps.

the monkey in chris griffin's closet got my bankroll

[potpumper43 0]

I understand professional athlete's difference between us, the normal ppl, the main difference being the physical aspect, but i cant seem to understand the difference between a professional poker player and ourselves.  If phil ivey or daniel came to one of the home games. would he win every time? Surely michael jordan or allen iverson will in a 1:1 with us.  What makes professional poker players  so special and successful?

You are using a narrow definition of what a professional player is if you are thinking that only the personalities that you are seeing on TV are professionals. The fact is many of the posters on this forum count as professionals (no primary job, majority of income from poker). Also, many of the no names you see in tournaments on TV along the way to the final table, and at the final table are professionals as well, but they haven't had television exposure yet. No exposure doesn't mean they aren't winning, full time players. There are many qualities that combine to make a person a successful professional. Experience. Dedication to constant improvement and education. Honest introspection. Emotional control. Bankroll management (and a healthy disregard for money, though those seem to contradict each other). Love of the game and of competition (a person who feels they are merely grinding and aren't enjoying what they do are not successful imo). The fact is, most anything you do in your life that is measured by success or failure is going to be affected by these qualities, in any profession.As far as what makes them special, their mommies love them.

[lboarts 0]

As for my thoughts, it's about ability to pick up betting patterns. The average player doesn't pay as much attention to betting patterns as they should. Picking up tells is a good part of it too, but mostly a player that can pick up on betting patterns well is going to make a significant amount of money due to reads. Along the same lines, pros can switch it up at any time so that noone can pick up their betting patterns. Like Jennifer Harman said during the final table broadcast, most of the time the cards don't matter, they are thinking about what the other person has and how they would have played the hand in the past. That's why the pros have problems with the internet qualifiers and people they have never seen before. They don't have the information that they might have with someone that they play with every day or every week. Ok, I'ver rambled on, but that's why I think a pro is seperated from the average player. They will push edges based on past information better than the average player.Well put. The only thing I might question in this post is the pro's struggles with internet qualifiers. While it is true they have never played most of these people, pros have the ability to pick up on betting patterns in a very short amount of time. If a player is loose the time it takes gets even shorter, but at most 1 or 2 levels would suffice. In cash games, an hour, 2 at the most should be enough time, for your top pros. betting patterns arent based on specific hands, rather types of hands. For instanc, if the player in seat 1 raises preflop in late position with limpers in front of him and winds up showing a small pair, they'll likely be holding a small pair next time they make that bet in the same situation, whether or not they won the previous hand. This information can be very useful if you enter the hand with this player in this situation. Because a pro knows this, he himself is unlikely to play his small pairs the same way twice in a given situation. The bottom line is, professional poker players are pros because they know enough about the game to take our money while we analyze our hands and ask for advice on forums. Not that there's anything wrong with that.[/b]

[Big-Ern777 0]

Simple definition of Pro as said by others is making a net profit off of poker.In terms of what makes them better at the game is the raw skill area of the game, containing reads (in bets and physical tells), knowing when to bluff, when to fold a big hand or correctly make a tough call. Anyone can slow play a set at the flop or throw out a bluff, but all pro's have over amateurs is increasing profit with the luck given to them more so than an average player. For example, a pro will pick up when to bluff in a certain spot through an opponent's bet and how they've played their cards, where as an amateur may simply look at his cards, see them as weak and muck. A pro simply makes more out of his oppurtunities in the game. With that said, I think there's a very small, finite line between an amateur and a pro, so small that it keeps poker's golden rule in play. Anyone can win.

[TS Clark 0]

Pros are much less risk adverse than I am.

This is 100% true. After reading and thinking about this for a long time, I am convinced this is a key, key difference between pros and amateurs (even very accomplished amateurs, such as Smash). Not the only difference, but a pretty big one.Most people just don't have the emotional frame of mind to push edges and take risks the way pros do. And many of those who do aren't very good players and are soon broke. I'm absolutely convinced that a very large percentage of pro players are just sick gamblers (and Doyle Brunson has said the same thing). They've just found a way to profit from their sickness because of their talent.I could never play poker for a living -- I am way too risk averse. And knowing that even the best players have gone broke many times (and I'm not in the same league with these people), it's not something I could ever pursue. Those who do proceed at their peril.

[lboarts 0]

Another quick thought on betting patterns. I've seen so many people, more live than online, show thier cards when they don't have to. And they usuall do it because they made a good hand and want to show it, taking pride in what they accomplished, lmao. Anytime I see this I just get all warm and fuzzy inside, like I found my new best friend. These are the people I enjoy playing hands with, because they don't have a complete understanding of the game. They don't realize they are helping everyone at the table (that are actively trying) to pick up on thier betting patterns. I will admit to showing my cards once in a while, but only when I want to pass out information that I can then use in the future. But thats a whole nother subject we dont need to get into now.P.S. You gotta love the B&M cardrooms with TVs on the wall. Watch how many guys at your table watch the TV after mucking each hand, then take thier money as well, lol.

[speedz99 145]

Another quick thought on betting patterns. I've seen so many people, more live than online, show thier cards when they don't have to. And they usuall do it because they made a good hand and want to show it, taking pride in what they accomplished, lmao. Anytime I see this I just get all warm and fuzzy inside, like I found my new best friend. These are the people I enjoy playing hands with, because they don't have a complete understanding of the game. They don't realize they are helping everyone at the table (that are actively trying) to pick up on thier betting patterns. I will admit to showing my cards once in a while, but only when I want to pass out information that I can then use in the future. But thats a whole nother subject we dont need to get into now.P.S. You gotta love the B&M cardrooms with TVs on the wall. Watch how many guys at your table watch the TV after mucking each hand, then take thier money as well, lol.

Give this a try once. Keep an eye on the table, but pretend that you are real involved in one of the games on the big screen. Guys that like to think they can pick up on tells (but aren't yet able to catch a false tell) will pay you off big time.

[Douglas333 0]

I understand professional athlete's difference between us, the normal ppl, the main difference being the physical aspect, but i cant seem to understand the difference between a professional poker player and ourselves. If phil ivey or daniel came to one of the home games. would he win every time? Surely michael jordan or allen iverson will in a 1:1 with us. What makes professional poker players so special and successful?

(if anyone already said this, please be easy on me i dont feel like reading every single post) The difference between us and pro athletes is NOT the physiacl aspects. Pro athletes have, or had, a die hard work ethic to be the best they can be. Natural ability helps but, MOST people do not have the downright love for the game or work ethic. People get pissed because they suck a*ss at golf, but they only play on the weekends so what do you expect.Pro poker players, (the REAL ones, like DN) have this same love for what they do , and strive to be the best they can be. And will do anything to improve their game. Thats not to say you couldn't own Dn or Ivey in a home game or even once or twice in the big game. But their pure knowledge and experience of the game is what seperated them. The cream rises to the top.

[lrlslo 0]

There is much more to being a top poker pro than just having the BR or the balls to play higher limits. You have to understand that almost all top pros worked their way up the ranks to be at the limits they are at now (few exceptions obviously). DN started playing home games and 3/6 working up the ladder, but he and others like him climb it much faster because they are simply better players.Think about how much knowledge of the game it takes to write a book on poker, well to write a good book. These guys have such a deep understanding of the game, and most of them developed it on their own. The tools available to players now are far better than what most pros had when they were coming up the ranks, and that deserves respect.No, Ivey and DN wouldn't beat you EVERYTIME, but if you sat in on their games, over time they would break you, consistently.

[pockets 0]

They bathe in money.Seriously.Daniel's shower sprays quarters.It's a fact.

[blueodum 0]

An important difference between successful high stakes players (I prefer not to use the term "pros", since a guy grinding out a living at 5-10 in his local casino or online is technically a pro), and those who play smaller stakes is that the former are used to playing against other skilled players.Playing small stakes, you search for the softest games - and that maximizes your income.At very high stakes, you of course are looking for soft games, and you will find them once in a while (relatively speaking of course). But mostly, you are playing against a table of players who you think are a little bit worse than you, but are still solid players.In chess, the only way to improve is to play against people who are as good or (preferably) better than you. You learn from them, and consequently, your game becomes more sophisticated.In poker, the same thing is accomplished by moving up stakes. Each time you do, you are facing opposition that is (in theory, anyways) a little bit better than the competition you've beat at the previous level. Howard Lederer is a good example of a player who claims he struggled with each new level until he improved his game enough to beat that level, before moving up stakes.There is a danger, though. Each time you move up, it's possible that you aren't going to hack it and you are going to lose a bunch of money, forcing you to drop down and build up your bankroll for another shot later. There are people who reach a level they are comfortable with and don't wish to take the risk of moving up stakes. The risk-taking element is another important ingredient a high-stakes player needs to have.So, successful high stakes players are those who had the ability, confidence, work-ethic and DESIRE to move up stakes. Those are the things that make them different from the ordinary grinder.