daniel and phil talking about the challenge

[Hawk21 0]

He says 100 million in endorsments to come :wink:

[mark33f 0]

He says 100 million in endorsments to come  :wink:

That is probably a stretch (I mean one time he said possibly $400 million) but it is definitley in the multiple millions.

[KowboyKoop 0]

Phil would give Daniel a good fight in holdem and thats it.

I like and respect Daniel and realize that he is likely a better all-around poker player than Phil, but Phil is THE best hold'em player in the world, hands down. His attitude stinks so people sometimes do not want to give him the credit he deserves, but he is capable of making some sick laydowns and, if i have my facts straight, all NINE of his bracelets are in Hold'em. Hellmuth would, in the long run, own daniel in hold'em. Also, I believe a heads up tourney was held with all the best pros in it and Hellmuth won, by owning Chris Ferguson in the finals. Bottom line, Hellmuth is the best hold'em player in the world, and also a huge ******* at times.

[mark33f 0]

Phil would give Daniel a good fight in holdem and thats it.

I like and respect Daniel and realize that he is likely a better all-around poker player than Phil, but Phil is THE best hold'em player in the world, hands down. His attitude stinks so people sometimes do not want to give him the credit he deserves, but he is capable of making some sick laydowns and, if i have my facts straight, all NINE of his bracelets are in Hold'em. Hellmuth would, in the long run, own daniel in hold'em. Also, I believe a heads up tourney was held with all the best pros in it and Hellmuth won, by owning Chris Ferguson in the finals. Bottom line, Hellmuth is the best hold'em player in the world, and also a huge censored at times.

Sorry his game just isn't been there lately.He wasn't won a major tournament in a really long time.The Heads Up thing was a great win, but I am taking a normal freezeout.I hope he finally does soon though.

[KowboyKoop 0]

I realize that Hellmuth may not have won a "major" tourney in a while, although the Heads Up thing was a pretty solid win in my opinion, but Hellmuth had a lot better of a World Series than Daniel did. I know Daniel got pretty unlucky on numerous occasions during these tournaments, but a bad beat is pretty much required to knock Phil out of a holdem tourney. So saying Phil's game "hasn't been there" doesn't really hold up when you look at the World Series that Daniel had.....just my opinion though.

[na3r0k 0]

Ughhhh what a dilema both players are my 2 favs in the poker world. Even though it's a dn following here, i do have to say phil has the edge. I mean it's ivey the guy is just untouchable. You can't really compare anyone to him.

[mark33f 0]

bad beat is pretty much required to knock Phil out of a holdem tourney.Aint that the truth...

[kfernandez 0]

Ughhhh what a dilema both players are my 2 favs in the poker world.  Even though it's a dn following here, i do have to say phil has the edge.  I mean it's ivey the guy is just untouchable.  You can't really compare anyone to him.

They're talking about Phil Hellmuth, not Phil Ivey.

[AC BillP 0]

I realize these 'Poker Pros" have to market ther egos, but gimme a break. To hear Daniel talk about the "amatuers" with such a condescending attitude makes me sick. Listening to Daniel complain about having to work his way through the crowd during a break and comparing it to Michale Jordan having to mingle with the fans during a game is hilarious.Daniel, there are about 20,000,000 players out there that play as well as you do. Poker is not rocket science..Its a game of intuition and math..you may do well is listening and learning from a realist like Raymer and what he has to say when he talks about the game. Everyone at that final table and everyone at that final tournament probably play with a 10% variance in skill level. Pros are no better than amatuers. The only, repeat only, difference between amatuers and pros is that amauteurs have chosen a life that includes other responsibilities beside playing poker. To hear Daniel squeak about how it seems a little unfair that these "amatuers" should compete for the World title and that there should be a way to get the"name" players in the final table for ratings is his understanding that his influence in this game, and the influence of the other "pros" has a shelf life similar to his hair on his head.Poker is a game that many millions of people can play well, and we dont watch to see the name players. We watch to see the action and how folks react to each situation. The ratings will be just fine, you watch.

If there weren't 1000's of other poker players who agree with Mr. Arnold, there wouldn't be 100's of PRO's walking away from the WSOP this year several $100,000 richer-- Yes the pros agree with you Ben, no ones any better than most amateurs-- see ya next year --and better luck.

[golferbrent 0]

Phil would give Daniel a good fight in holdem and thats it.

I like and respect Daniel and realize that he is likely a better all-around poker player than Phil, but Phil is THE best hold'em player in the world, hands down. His attitude stinks so people sometimes do not want to give him the credit he deserves, but he is capable of making some sick laydowns and, if i have my facts straight, all NINE of his bracelets are in Hold'em. Hellmuth would, in the long run, own daniel in hold'em. Also, I believe a heads up tourney was held with all the best pros in it and Hellmuth won, by owning Chris Ferguson in the finals. Bottom line, Hellmuth is the best hold'em player in the world, and also a huge censored at times.

Best Holdem player?? Come on... Phil is a good tournament NL Holdem player... but he is far from a good cash game player and that is what these matches are... a big cash game... and Phil himself admits to being a poor cash game player. He would have a chance certainly against DN... but I would say DN would be a favorite in the order of 5-10% on a consisitent basis!!Everybody on here needs to learn that tournament players are very good at what they do... which is capitalize on the overlay that they receive from weaker players in a tournament format... but most of them do not fare well in a cash game sitting. Truly great players like Doyle, Ivey, DN and Chip excel at both b/c they are able to adjust to the different skill sets that are required to excel at the two distinct disciplines.

[GamblinLeaf 0]

Maybe....but you dont invest your money if you don't think the stock is good do you? Phil knows its not worth the risk because the odds of Daniel winning are better.

The better analogy would be the following: You have $100k allocated for this morning's trading. You have a dozen potential trades. Do you:a) Put all $100k in the one stock that is offering you no better than 1-to-1 risk/reward?B) Put all $100k in another stock offering a better risk/reward?c) Spread out that $100k across, say, 7 or 8 stocks ALL offering you better than 1-to-1 risk/reward?This happens to me on an almost daily basis, and the answer is c. Only ego (I know *this one* is going to the moon) has a trader/investor choosing a or b. It's very likely that Phil, even if he considered himself a favorite against DN in hold'em, is smart enough to realize that c is the correct choice.

[greatwhite 0]

This sounds more like a heads up tournament then a cash game. They are playing until one loses all their money. Although they can break at anytime they are going after every chip of each other. It's like the Heads Up Championship only with just 2 people.

[Pokerghost2 0]

Phil would give Daniel a good fight in holdem and thats it.

I like and respect Daniel and realize that he is likely a better all-around poker player than Phil, but Phil is THE best hold'em player in the world, hands down. His attitude stinks so people sometimes do not want to give him the credit he deserves, but he is capable of making some sick laydowns and, if i have my facts straight, all NINE of his bracelets are in Hold'em. Hellmuth would, in the long run, own daniel in hold'em. Also, I believe a heads up tourney was held with all the best pros in it and Hellmuth won, by owning Chris Ferguson in the finals. Bottom line, Hellmuth is the best hold'em player in the world, and also a huge censored at times.

Best Holdem player?? Come on... Phil is a good tournament NL Holdem player... but he is far from a good cash game player and that is what these matches are... a big cash game... and Phil himself admits to being a poor cash game player. He would have a chance certainly against DN... but I would say DN would be a favorite in the order of 5-10% on a consisitent basis!!Everybody on here needs to learn that tournament players are very good at what they do... which is capitalize on the overlay that they receive from weaker players in a tournament format... but most of them do not fare well in a cash game sitting. Truly great players like Doyle, Ivey, DN and Chip excel at both b/c they are able to adjust to the different skill sets that are required to excel at the two distinct disciplines.

take a good look at the format of this challenge and then u will understand why ur post was donkified.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Maybe....but you dont invest your money if you don't think the stock is good do you? Phil knows its not worth the risk because the odds of Daniel winning are better.

It reveals no more about whether he thinks he's a favorite at the game than it would reveal that a CEO has no faith in a companies success on account of the fact that he isnt investing a substantial percentage of his net worth in the company.

[KowboyKoop 0]

Two players playing each other until one person has no chips left, sounds like a, a......a CASH GAME!!!! Wow, next time i play a heads up sit 'n' go on Stars, i am just going to leave whenever i have the lead and demand that i get paid based upon the ratio of chips I have compared to my opponent, seeing as how it is definitely not a tournament.....sw

[SFkid 0]

guys like ivey and brunson take this challenge and guys like hellmuth don't.The fact is ivey and brunson are profesional gamblers.Hellmuth is a calculated risk taker.The fact that hellmuth does not take risks is the reason he never wins any events and why he would not take this challenge

[Guest]

guys like ivey and brunson take this challenge and guys like hellmuth don't.The fact is ivey and brunson are profesional gamblers.Hellmuth is a calculated risk taker.The fact that hellmuth does not take risks is the reason he never wins any events and why he would not take this challenge

Yeah, Hellmuth=complete donkeyhe never wins. ever. I hear he stole his nine bracelets. sw

[Abbaddabba 0]

Taking a 500K challenge against someone who is indisputably one of the better name pro's out there is, from ANYONE'S perspective, a bad financial decision. Even if you think you have a small edge, there's no good reason to take that challenge. You could average much more at a similarly priced high stake tables against much weaker competition. People who do this are not doing it for the money. Well, maybe the stupid ones are.

[LuckyMcCatcher 0]

I realize that Hellmuth may not have won a "major" tourney in a while, although the Heads Up thing was a pretty solid win in my opinion, but Hellmuth had a lot better of a World Series than Daniel did. I know Daniel got pretty unlucky on numerous occasions during these tournaments, but a bad beat is pretty much required to knock Phil out of a holdem tourney. So saying Phil's game "hasn't been there" doesn't really hold up when you look at the World Series that Daniel had.....just my opinion though.

A. The Head Up was a major tourneyB. Its virtually the same format we are talking aboutC. Its a horrible investment (500K to win 500K?) in a match where there is no clear edge?D. Phil is a great Omaha player and has come real close to winning bracelets in Omaha.E. He has more cashes than anyone at the world series.F. Smash's coin flipping analogy is right. If they really want to prove something play Johnny Moss and Nick the Greek style for a year.G. BTW, I'd love to see Forrest take on Daniel in any game.

[pockets 0]

C. Its a horrible investment (500K to win 500K?) in a match where there is no clear edge?

If there is no edge, then EV is 0. Phil could be using that time to make money. So yes, that is a horrible investment.

[blueodum 0]

Didn't the heads up tournament have escalating blinds?Don't Daniel's matches have fixed blinds?If true, that is a MAJOR difference between the formats.

[SFkid 0]

guys like ivey and brunson take this challenge and guys like hellmuth don't.The fact is ivey and brunson are profesional gamblers.Hellmuth is a calculated risk taker.The fact that hellmuth does not take risks is the reason he never wins any events and why he would not take this challenge

Yeah, Hellmuth=complete donkeyhe never wins. ever. I hear he stole his nine bracelets. sw

I am not talking about his past.I am talking about the past two years.He has not been able to do well in these large fields because he is not willing to get into coin flips when he needs to.

[P_Head2 0]

guys like ivey and brunson take this challenge and guys like hellmuth don't.The fact is ivey and brunson are profesional gamblers.Hellmuth is a calculated risk taker.The fact that hellmuth does not take risks is the reason he never wins any events and why he would not take this challenge

Yeah, Hellmuth=complete donkeyhe never wins. ever. I hear he stole his nine bracelets. sw

I am not talking about his past.I am talking about the past two years.He has not been able to do well in these large fields because he is not willing to get into coin flips when he needs to.

He had one bad year in 2004, I guess you could say he had a bad 2003 because he only won two braclets, only made one WPT final table and only cahsed for ~1.2 million. 2005 has been pretty bad too, only ~600k so far with 4 WSOP cashes and one lousy win for 500k.also, fyi for those who like to refer to the hendon mob db for alltime stats results for any tournaments besides the WSOP are pretty much non-existant for dates early than 1999 or so. Many of the bigname players who have been on the tournament trail for awhile (cloutier, hellmuth, etc.) have won a good amount more than their records there indicate. I know the prize pools were alot smaller back in the late 80s and 90s but I think it's worht mentioning since those stats are often used to to evaluate players...

[kfernandez 0]

The fact of the matter is that Hellmuth knows that he doesn't have enough of an edge against DN to make any HU match worth it for the 500k. It is far too near a coin flip for Hellmuth to invest money into any match.

[P_Head2 0]

The fact of the matter is that Hellmuth knows that he doesn't have enough of an edge against DN to make any HU match worth it for the 500k. It is far too near a coin flip for Hellmuth to invest money into any match.

Does anyone have enough of an edge to make the matches worth it? I think most people agree that the majority of these matches are close to 50/50 either way (involving pros anyway). There are really only two aspects that I can think of that would interest pros in these challenges, ego and/or publicity. I would imagine that for the amount of coverage being generated someone like Barry Greenstein might think it's worth it even he goes 4-5 in the matches if it helps books sales, etc. out enough. As for DN as long as he breaks even in these matches he comes out ahead if helps his video game sales and other endorsements in any way at all...