Bin Laden Is Dead

[FCP Bob 1,312]

I think this is what we have been doing for a while now. I don't think anyone is under the illusion that Pakistan is a real ally of ours. It's just strategically better for us (and for India) that we pretend that they are friendly instead of being in an all-out conflict with them.

As usual The Economist has a great article on this.http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook/20...osama_bin_laden

[mrdannyg 274]

You are like a cop trying to give a speeding ticket to the pregnant woman on her way to the hospital. Sticking to rules like this even when they are out of context is a form of dogmatism. It's what leads to binladenesque fanaticism. The reason we have those rules and regulations about fair trials and such is in order to make sure that justice is served. Those rules serve the interests of justice, and not the other way around. In this case, justice was done. There is no question about OBL's innocence. The man sent us videotapes bragging about what he did. He was a fugitive and resisted capture. He was shot. There is no court proceeding necessary here.

Link? My understanding was the opposite - that he has admitted to many things, but explicitly denied involvement in 9/11. Which is weird, because he knew he was being hunted, confessed to enough to get him on the top 10 list and targeted by the US. But he denies this...Oh, I guess he denied this. Not doing too much denying these days

[El Guapo 8]

Did digitalmonkey loan his account to All-In and enable spell check.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Did digitalmonkey loan his account to All-In and enable spell check.

Thank you for complementing my spelling.The Peanut Gallery is a good hiding place.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Link? My understanding was the opposite - that he has admitted to many things, but explicitly denied involvement in 9/11. Which is weird, because he knew he was being hunted, confessed to enough to get him on the top 10 list and targeted by the US. But he denies this...Oh, I guess he denied this. Not doing too much denying these days

I am quite certain I will be put on at least one list for posting this, but yes, he did deny any involvement in 9/11...http://911review.com/articles/usamah/khilafah.html

[mrdannyg 274]

I am quite certain I will be put on at least one list for posting this, but yes, he did deny any involvement in 9/11...http://911review.com/articles/usamah/khilafah.html

Holy crap. He didn't just deny it, he said this (from the above link):"In the name of Allah (God), the most beneficent, the most merciful. Praise be to Allah, Who is the creator of the whole universe and Who made the Earth as an abode for peace, for the whole humankind. Allah is the Sustainer, who sent Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) for our guidance. I am thankful to the Ummat Group of Publications, which gave me the opportunity to convey my viewpoint to the people, particularly the valiant and momin (true Muslim) people of Pakistan who refused to believe the lies of the demon (Pakistani military dictator General Pervez Musharraf).I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act."That's only part of it. It may all be BS, but THAT has got to be the best denial I have ever seen. Seriously, it runs of like 4 more paragraphs, and a quick skim reveals a reference to General Noriega. I'm guessing it took the US the last 9 years just to figure out what the hell that all meant.

[vbnautilus 48]

I am quite certain I will be put on at least one list for posting this, but yes, he did deny any involvement in 9/11...http://911review.com/articles/usamah/khilafah.html

A few years after that, he admitted it:http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/binladen_10-29-04.htmlIn addition to 9/11 he took credit for many other attacks, including the 1998 embassy bombings.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Holy crap. He didn't just deny it, he said this (from the above link):"In the name of Allah (God), the most beneficent, the most merciful. Praise be to Allah, Who is the creator of the whole universe and Who made the Earth as an abode for peace, for the whole humankind. Allah is the Sustainer, who sent Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) for our guidance. I am thankful to the Ummat Group of Publications, which gave me the opportunity to convey my viewpoint to the people, particularly the valiant and momin (true Muslim) people of Pakistan who refused to believe the lies of the demon (Pakistani military dictator General Pervez Musharraf).I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act."That's only part of it. It may all be BS, but THAT has got to be the best denial I have ever seen. Seriously, it runs of like 4 more paragraphs, and a quick skim reveals a reference to General Noriega. I'm guessing it took the US the last 9 years just to figure out what the hell that all meant.

Seeing I'm already on a list...http://www.mydemocracy.net/war_crimes/bin_...responsible.htmI'm sure it will be rebuffed with the usual tin-foil-hat-anti-conspiracy-theory pictures and comments.

[mrdannyg 274]

A few years after that, he admitted it:http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/binladen_10-29-04.htmlIn addition to 9/11 he took credit for many other attacks, including the 1998 embassy bombings.

I saw that, though my initial googling seemed to indicate those were faked tapes. Upon further googling, and some actual reading, it seems to me that the links indicating they are fakes are not very promising, whereby several more official-looking sources do not mention faking. Plus, wikipedia doesn't say anything about being faked, so that's proof enough for me.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

So this has been kicking around in my head since I heard the news, and I think I've finally got a little handle of what I think about this whole deal. I have no problem with Osama being killed at all. He was a military target, and was dealt with militarily. The problem that I have with him, and america's whole obsession with finding him, is that he has been, from beginning to end, the most Orwellian figure of my life time. The way the american public has been manipulated to hate certain figures, Castro, Ghadaffi, Saddam and most importantly Osama, has always reminded me of the villain Goldstein. (certainly they are worthy of hate without manipulation, but it's the manipulation that disturbs me, not the hate). The average citizen ( and even the above average one, much less the below average one) doesn't have the interest and/or the ability to understand complex geo-political events. So, instead of educating themselves, they latch onto certain figures, Saddam, Osama, who ever, and they are propped up as the Villain, the face of the evil we are fighting. We get lathered up with our 2 minutes of hate, and turn off our brains and the government can go do what ever it wishes. And maybe with a figure like Saddam, it's more warranted. HE's an evil man, with an evil regeme. he had a tangible domain. So when he dies, people can hope that Iraq can be a free place ( it is, of course, much more complex that that, but I can see that line of thinking). But with global terrorism.. no regime has been toppled. Radical muslims still hate us. Terrorist organizations like Al-queda aren't the hierarchal power structures that petty dictator has. They are decentralized. We aren't cutting the head off a snake, we're cutting a head off a hydra. I think our killing of Osama is more akin to killing Escobar than it is Saddam. As soon as Escobar was gone, there were new escobar's to pop up to take his place, and there will be new Osama's .So this war we're in, this never ending idealogical (rather than territorial) war verses terror, is all ready the most orwellian of wars to date. Even more than the cold war, if that is possible. And to have everyone just jump into the streets, wrap themselves up in flags, and act like they'd just won the superbowl... it disturbs me. This is a somber day, I think. one long step in a war that's likely to be never ending, until cultural hegemony is achieved through technology or something. It's certainly never going to end in my life time, so as far as I'm concerned it's an eternal war. I think people should take time out, and think about what this war has cost us, and the things, the hard things, we need to do to keep america safe. I don't think it's something to have a drunken orgy about. He was a symbol, and his death is symbolic, and I understand why people are excited, particularly ones who have had friends/loved ones victims of terrorism. But even though he is dead, his movement lives on, and is now has it's biggest and best martyr. This isn't D day, this isn't the end of a war. It's an end of a chapter.

[PillyPill 0]

Not gonna read much of this to be honest, but god bless america!!!

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

So this has been kicking around in my head since I heard the news, and I think I've finally got a little handle of what I think about this whole deal. I have no problem with Osama being killed at all. He was a military target, and was dealt with militarily. The problem that I have with him, and america's whole obsession with finding him, is that he has been, from beginning to end, the most Orwellian figure of my life time. The way the american public has been manipulated to hate certain figures, Castro, Ghadaffi, Saddam and most importantly Osama, has always reminded me of the villain Goldstein. (certainly they are worthy of hate without manipulation, but it's the manipulation that disturbs me, not the hate). The average citizen ( and even the above average one, much less the below average one) doesn't have the interest and/or the ability to understand complex geo-political events. So, instead of educating themselves, they latch onto certain figures, Saddam, Osama, who ever, and they are propped up as the Villain, the face of the evil we are fighting. We get lathered up with our 2 minutes of hate, and turn off our brains and the government can go do what ever it wishes. And maybe with a figure like Saddam, it's more warranted. HE's an evil man, with an evil regeme. he had a tangible domain. So when he dies, people can hope that Iraq can be a free place ( it is, of course, much more complex that that, but I can see that line of thinking). But with global terrorism.. no regime has been toppled. Radical muslims still hate us. Terrorist organizations like Al-queda aren't the hierarchal power structures that petty dictator has. They are decentralized. We aren't cutting the head off a snake, we're cutting a head off a hydra. I think our killing of Osama is more akin to killing Escobar than it is Saddam. As soon as Escobar was gone, there were new escobar's to pop up to take his place, and there will be new Osama's .So this war we're in, this never ending idealogical (rather than territorial) war verses terror, is all ready the most orwellian of wars to date. Even more than the cold war, if that is possible. And to have everyone just jump into the streets, wrap themselves up in flags, and act like they'd just won the superbowl... it disturbs me. This is a somber day, I think. one long step in a war that's likely to be never ending, until cultural hegemony is achieved through technology or something. It's certainly never going to end in my life time, so as far as I'm concerned it's an eternal war. I think people should take time out, and think about what this war has cost us, and the things, the hard things, we need to do to keep america safe. I don't think it's something to have a drunken orgy about. He was a symbol, and his death is symbolic, and I understand why people are excited, particularly ones who have had friends/loved ones victims of terrorism. But even though he is dead, his movement lives on, and is now has it's biggest and best martyr. This isn't D day, this isn't the end of a war. It's an end of a chapter.

yeah, that's pretty much it.

[digitalmonkey 929]

So this has been kicking around in my head since I heard the news, and I think I've finally got a little handle of what I think about this whole deal. I have no problem with Osama being killed at all. He was a military target, and was dealt with militarily. The problem that I have with him, and america's whole obsession with finding him, is that he has been, from beginning to end, the most Orwellian figure of my life time. The way the american public has been manipulated to hate certain figures, Castro, Ghadaffi, Saddam and most importantly Osama, has always reminded me of the villain Goldstein. (certainly they are worthy of hate without manipulation, but it's the manipulation that disturbs me, not the hate). The average citizen ( and even the above average one, much less the below average one) doesn't have the interest and/or the ability to understand complex geo-political events. So, instead of educating themselves, they latch onto certain figures, Saddam, Osama, who ever, and they are propped up as the Villain, the face of the evil we are fighting. We get lathered up with our 2 minutes of hate, and turn off our brains and the government can go do what ever it wishes. And maybe with a figure like Saddam, it's more warranted. HE's an evil man, with an evil regeme. he had a tangible domain. So when he dies, people can hope that Iraq can be a free place ( it is, of course, much more complex that that, but I can see that line of thinking). But with global terrorism.. no regime has been toppled. Radical muslims still hate us. Terrorist organizations like Al-queda aren't the hierarchal power structures that petty dictator has. They are decentralized. We aren't cutting the head off a snake, we're cutting a head off a hydra. I think our killing of Osama is more akin to killing Escobar than it is Saddam. As soon as Escobar was gone, there were new escobar's to pop up to take his place, and there will be new Osama's .So this war we're in, this never ending idealogical (rather than territorial) war verses terror, is all ready the most orwellian of wars to date. Even more than the cold war, if that is possible. And to have everyone just jump into the streets, wrap themselves up in flags, and act like they'd just won the superbowl... it disturbs me. This is a somber day, I think. one long step in a war that's likely to be never ending, until cultural hegemony is achieved through technology or something. It's certainly never going to end in my life time, so as far as I'm concerned it's an eternal war. I think people should take time out, and think about what this war has cost us, and the things, the hard things, we need to do to keep america safe. I don't think it's something to have a drunken orgy about. He was a symbol, and his death is symbolic, and I understand why people are excited, particularly ones who have had friends/loved ones victims of terrorism. But even though he is dead, his movement lives on, and is now has it's biggest and best martyr. This isn't D day, this isn't the end of a war. It's an end of a chapter.

I can get behind this with the addendum that there is always shit on both sides of the fence and sometimes evil is standing beside you pretending to be your friend.

[SuperJon 175]

I am quite certain I will be put on at least one list for posting this, but yes, he did deny any involvement in 9/11...http://911review.com/articles/usamah/khilafah.html

I honestly don't know all of the facts, so I won't question the validity of your link.However, even if he wasn't behind 9/11, I thought he was guilty of other crimes. If so, then I don't see how someone could believe his denial of the 9/11 attacks with 100% certainty.I mean, surely a man who was capable of murdering thousands, is also capable of lying.

[Balloon guy 158]

So this has been kicking around in my head since I heard the news, and I think I've finally got a little handle of what I think about this whole deal. I have no problem with Osama being killed at all. He was a military target, and was dealt with militarily. The problem that I have with him, and america's whole obsession with finding him, is that he has been, from beginning to end, the most Orwellian figure of my life time. The way the american public has been manipulated to hate certain figures, Castro, Ghadaffi, Saddam and most importantly Osama, has always reminded me of the villain Goldstein. (certainly they are worthy of hate without manipulation, but it's the manipulation that disturbs me, not the hate). The average citizen ( and even the above average one, much less the below average one) doesn't have the interest and/or the ability to understand complex geo-political events. So, instead of educating themselves, they latch onto certain figures, Saddam, Osama, who ever, and they are propped up as the Villain, the face of the evil we are fighting. We get lathered up with our 2 minutes of hate, and turn off our brains and the government can go do what ever it wishes. And maybe with a figure like Saddam, it's more warranted. HE's an evil man, with an evil regeme. he had a tangible domain. So when he dies, people can hope that Iraq can be a free place ( it is, of course, much more complex that that, but I can see that line of thinking). But with global terrorism.. no regime has been toppled. Radical muslims still hate us. Terrorist organizations like Al-queda aren't the hierarchal power structures that petty dictator has. They are decentralized. We aren't cutting the head off a snake, we're cutting a head off a hydra. I think our killing of Osama is more akin to killing Escobar than it is Saddam. As soon as Escobar was gone, there were new escobar's to pop up to take his place, and there will be new Osama's .So this war we're in, this never ending idealogical (rather than territorial) war verses terror, is all ready the most orwellian of wars to date. Even more than the cold war, if that is possible. And to have everyone just jump into the streets, wrap themselves up in flags, and act like they'd just won the superbowl... it disturbs me. This is a somber day, I think. one long step in a war that's likely to be never ending, until cultural hegemony is achieved through technology or something. It's certainly never going to end in my life time, so as far as I'm concerned it's an eternal war. I think people should take time out, and think about what this war has cost us, and the things, the hard things, we need to do to keep america safe. I don't think it's something to have a drunken orgy about. He was a symbol, and his death is symbolic, and I understand why people are excited, particularly ones who have had friends/loved ones victims of terrorism. But even though he is dead, his movement lives on, and is now has it's biggest and best martyr. This isn't D day, this isn't the end of a war. It's an end of a chapter.

USA USA USAIf this had happened 1 month after the towers fell, I think we would have slowed down our desire to invade for sure. Maybe Iraq never happens, maybe we wait for another major attack.But after ten years, the middle east is changing. For good or bad we will see, but it was a place where anti-American rhetoric was working. Now it is slowly coming out of the dark ages and demanding more freedoms and less corruption. The direction is a positive, the results are an unknown.You also need to understand that the more people in the group, the lower the IQ/ability to grasp any nuance. It's not a manipulation, its a reality. To ignore that is foolish. The question of islam's jihad with a few million of its followers needed to be addressed. They were already bombing embassies, war ships, people waiting for buses. The towers gave us a centralizing theme to wake up to the reality that radical islam demanded a response militarily. Osama gave us the poster child.If we could flash to the parallel universe where Clinton took out Osama when he had the chance, and 9-11 never happened, we could see 'what if'...but we don't have any Fringe-like abilities to drop some cortexiphan and see how our actions changed things.So we have to do the best we can with the information we have. And once you make a decision, you go with it, irregardless( love that word) of the Monday morning quarterbacks who are going to criticize everything they can.Now that he's gone, we can start to pull back if that's the decision of the people in the know, and use him as another swivel point for a change in direction. Or we can continue to bring the middle east out of the dark ages. I trust that the military with the civilian leadership will make the decision that is best for the future of this country, even the current administration, because behind closed doors I think they all recognize that radical islam needs to be dealt with.Of course its also possible that this is the beginning of the apocalypse, and you should prepare. I'm ready either way.

[colonel Feathers 5]

What? What do you mean they didnt read him his rights?

[brvheart 1,752]

I'm sure it's already been posted, but still awesome... http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=13512344&page=1

[hblask 1]

I'm sure it's already been posted, but still awesome... http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=13512344&page=3

The title of that article is not addressed in the body. One unwary phone call? I want more details now.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

The title of that article is not addressed in the body. One unwary phone call? I want more details now.

he linked us to page 3. Go back to page one.

[hblask 1]

he linked us to page 3. Go back to page one.

Ah, got it, apparently I'm a bit slow today.A quote from the story jumped out:

"We got beat up for [torturing prisoners], but those efforts led to this great day," said Marty Martin, a retired CIA officer who for years led the hunt for bin Laden.

Apparently, "the end justifies the means" is now official policy.

[Balloon guy 158]

Ah, got it, apparently I'm a bit slow today.A quote from the story jumped out:Apparently, "the end justifies the means" is now official policy.

Even Obama recognized that extreme methods of interrogation need to be available in certain circumstances. Being able to determine those circumstances is the part that keeps us from falling down the slippery slope.The story now is that 4 years ago the guy we waterboarded gave us the name of Usama's courier. 2 years ago we found the courier and began following him, until he led us to Usama.So it seems that they were able to determine the right circumstances for waterboarding Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

[timwakefield 68]

Catching Osama at this point is probably almost entirely symbolic - it seems like he was pretty much just hiding, without the resources or ability to plan attacks or lead anybody. However, it's huuuuuugely symbolic - some newscaster last night described how our country has appeared impotent and incompetent in our search for the man who carried out the worst attack against us in history. Now that we finally got him, we can instantly shed those feelings and labels and remind ourselves that America fuck yeah (the reporter didn't use those exact words). You don't mess with us and get away with it. Period.I think this event will have a surprisingly wide and major effect on Americans and America. Maybe I'm just being wishful though.

[gobears 0]

Even Obama recognized that extreme methods of interrogation need to be available in certain circumstances. Being able to determine those circumstances is the part that keeps us from falling down the slippery slope.The story now is that 4 years ago the guy we waterboarded gave us the name of Usama's courier. 2 years ago we found the courier and began following him, until he led us to Usama.So it seems that they were able to determine the right circumstances for waterboarding Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

I don't think that you can make that statement BG - in this specific case, it's still unclear as to whether waterboading was necessary. And you can't say that Obama has recognized that since there is no evidence that Obama has agreed to extreme methods of interrogation. Doesn't mean that he hasn't; just means that it's not yet been proven.Mohammed did not discuss al-Kuwaiti while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He acknowledged knowing him many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/pho...QyaF_story.html

[coug2828 8]

CNN's animation of the assault on the compound is awesome. Looks like the army guys from Toy Story

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I can get behind this with the addendum that there is always shit on both sides of the fence and sometimes evil is standing beside you pretending to be your friend.

Yeah, I really don't think of it in terms of good and evil, ultimately. They are trying to kill us, and while I know there are reasons beyond "evil, crazy and muslim," ultimately all that shit is academic to me. I'm on Team USA, so they gotta go.