Cnn Vs Fox News

[timwakefield 68]

Or shall we punish several more generations of innocent people to satisfy the sins of the distant past?

Who is being punished, and how? I honestly don't know what you mean there. And it's nothing about satisfying the sins of the distant past. It's about realizing that those sins have long-lasting effects. I guess I really just don't understand your concept of "distant past." One single generation ago (a generation that is very much still living), half of the country was segregated. And not just segregated like 'you have a different water fountain.' Segregated like somebody rapes your sister and the police literally don't care, and sure as shit aren't going to investigate or anything. Also, you can't vote.

[hblask 1]

Who is being punished, and how? I honestly don't know what you mean there. And it's nothing about satisfying the sins of the distant past. It's about realizing that those sins have long-lasting effects. I guess I really just don't understand your concept of "distant past." One single generation ago (a generation that is very much still living), half of the country was segregated. And not just segregated like 'you have a different water fountain.' Segregated like somebody rapes your sister and the police literally don't care, and sure as shit aren't going to investigate or anything. Also, you can't vote.

You don't think that redistributing from the unfavored to the favored is punishment? Or racial quotas, which punish white and asians merely because of an accident of birth is a form of punishment?Also, a generation is generally considered to be 20 years, so no, when I was in college there were no separate drinking fountains. I think you are thinking of the 60's. And I'm not sure why you think a massive failure of government in the past is justification for an increase in government power in the present -- which seems to be the implication of your original response to BG's post.

[85suited 0]

Who is being punished, and how? I honestly don't know what you mean there. And it's nothing about satisfying the sins of the distant past. It's about realizing that those sins have long-lasting effects. I guess I really just don't understand your concept of "distant past." One single generation ago (a generation that is very much still living), half of the country was segregated. And not just segregated like 'you have a different water fountain.' Segregated like somebody rapes your sister and the police literally don't care, and sure as shit aren't going to investigate or anything. Also, you can't vote.

What do the TOP 10 cities with the HIGHEST POVERTY RATE have in common - DEMOCRAT leadership.Detroit The Poorest City in America last Republican mayor 1961 (47 years)Buffalo 2nd 1954 (54 yrs)Cincinnati 3rd since 1984 (24 yrs)Cleveland 4th since 1989 (19 yrs)Miami 5th NEVER had Republican MayorSt. Louis 6th since 1949 (59 yrs)El Paso 7th NEVER had Republican MayorMilwaukee 8th since 1908; (100 yrs)Philadelphia 9th since 1952 (56 yrs)Newark 10th since 1907(101 yrs)

[Flushgarden 0]

SNL spoofs Glenn Beck. Pretty funny.

[strategy 4]

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[timwakefield 68]

You don't think that redistributing from the unfavored to the favored is punishment?

Wait, what? Is that a typo? Aren't we talking about redistributing from the favored (whitey) to the unfavored (blacky)?

Also, a generation is generally considered to be 20 years, so no, when I was in college there were no separate drinking fountains.

That's splitting hairs. 0-29 years old is the future generation, 30-60ish is "this generation," and 60+ is the previous generation, by another perfectly reasonable definition. To put it another way, people consider their parents to be the immediately previous generation. My parents went to college in the 60s.

And I'm not sure why you think a massive failure of government in the past is justification for an increase in government power in the present -- which seems to be the implication of your original response to BG's post.

Slavery, segregation, institutionalized racism, etc are not simply a 'massive failure of government.' They were massive failures on every scale, large and small, from individual citizens, to individuals in limited power like police officers, and then of course in the government as well. But it was also the government that ended legal segregation. 'The government does something' does not always equal 'the government does something bad.' Characterizing the country's entire history of racism as a government problem let you draw the connection to "increased government power," implying that since the government caused segregation we should probably not trust the government to fix it. That's a pretty ridiculous oversimplification of how the world works. EDIT: Either that, or you are simply characterizing any sort of social program as 'increased government power' and implying that this makes them bad by definition.

[akoff 0]

Wait, what? Is that a typo? Aren't we talking about redistributing from the favored (whitey) to the unfavored (blacky)?That's splitting hairs. 0-29 years old is the future generation, 30-60ish is "this generation," and 60+ is the previous generation, by another perfectly reasonable definition. To put it another way, people consider their parents to be the immediately previous generation. My parents went to college in the 60s. Slavery, segregation, institutionalized racism, etc are not simply a 'massive failure of government.' They were massive failures on every scale, large and small, from individual citizens, to individuals in limited power like police officers, and then of course in the government as well. But it was also the government that ended legal segregation. 'The government does something' does not always equal 'the government does something bad.' Characterizing the country's entire history of racism as a government problem let you draw the connection to "increased government power," implying that since the government caused segregation we should probably not trust the government to fix it. That's a pretty ridiculous oversimplification of how the world works. EDIT: Either that, or you are simply characterizing any sort of social program as 'increased government power' and implying that this makes them bad by definition.

you continue to sound silly...there is no merit in your comments.Every minority that has come to this country started with nothing and built themselves up...every single one. I won't deny the history of racism or defend it, segragation was wrong...no arguement. That is not an excuse for the problems that exist. I think you have been reading history books and think it is still the 1950's. Blacks have every opportuninty to grow just like every other ethnic group in the country. The fact they, as group, haven't taken advantage of it is not due to racism or history, it is due to government intervention, lack of responsibility, reliance on government assistance for generations….pretty much the programs you bleeding hearts support and mandate have been the biggest factor. You are kind of like the drug dealer…LOL Democrats.

[vbnautilus 48]

I think you have been reading history books and think it is still the 1950's. Blacks have every opportuninty to grow just like every other ethnic group in the country. The fact they, as group, haven't taken advantage of it is not due to racism or history, it is due to government intervention, lack of responsibility, reliance on government assistance for generations….pretty much the programs you bleeding hearts support and mandate have been the biggest factor. You are kind of like the drug dealer…LOL Democrats.

I gotta say this is some pretty weak sociology.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Who is being punished, and how? I honestly don't know what you mean there. And it's nothing about satisfying the sins of the distant past. It's about realizing that those sins have long-lasting effects. I guess I really just don't understand your concept of "distant past." One single generation ago (a generation that is very much still living), half of the country was segregated. And not just segregated like 'you have a different water fountain.' Segregated like somebody rapes your sister and the police literally don't care, and sure as shit aren't going to investigate or anything. Also, you can't vote.

Apparently they have worse effects now than they did several generations ago. Well would you say we are a more racist country now than say the turn of the last century? Did you know that black students in Washington DC performed as well or better than their white peers in the early 1900s? It would appear to me that racism is not high on the list of causes of the plight of inner city blacks. It would be lack of access to a good education. As has been pointed out several times in many different threads the democrats have run inner city schools for many years. So what are your solutions? Besides of absolving blacks of any accountability for their own actions. What next? Seriously what do you want to see done? Reparations? What?

[Balloon guy 158]

Rush will be on Jay Leno's show tomorrow or the next day.Personally I think he can either hit a home run or fail miserably.

I think he was in between.I liked what he said, but this venue didn't allow him to explain it all well.But it was all good when he raced the car.Not only did he hit Algore on the track...he backed up and hit him again.

[hblask 1]

Wait, what? Is that a typo? Aren't we talking about redistributing from the favored (whitey) to the unfavored (blacky)?

Yes, typo, sorry

That's splitting hairs. 0-29 years old is the future generation, 30-60ish is "this generation," and 60+ is the previous generation, by another perfectly reasonable definition.

I actually consider it 3 generations since a sizeable number of people in power have accepted institutuional racism. Basically, I'm old, and it has never been accepted in my memory, and there are two generations after me. You'd probably have to go back to 60 y/o's to find people who openly and unapologetically think like that.

Slavery, segregation, institutionalized racism, etc are not simply a 'massive failure of government.' They were massive failures on every scale, large and small, from individual citizens, to individuals in limited power like police officers, and then of course in the government as well. But it was also the government that ended legal segregation. 'The government does something' does not always equal 'the government does something bad.' Characterizing the country's entire history of racism as a government problem let you draw the connection to "increased government power," implying that since the government caused segregation we should probably not trust the government to fix it. That's a pretty ridiculous oversimplification of how the world works. EDIT: Either that, or you are simply characterizing any sort of social program as 'increased government power' and implying that this makes them bad by definition.

The government's PRIMARY purpose is the protection of human rights against infringement from others. They failed with a capital F. When they finally stopped failing at their primary job, that was a Good Thing, but hardly a reason to punish people like me and my kids, who had nothing to do with racist sheriffs in rural Dixie.

[timwakefield 68]

you continue to sound silly...there is no merit in your comments.

Thanks for pointing that out. You know what really adds to the spirit of discussion and debate and helps make this place interesting and enjoyable? When people say really stupid shit like you just did. Seriously, it's like people are having a discussion and you pop your head in and say 'Hey dude, nobody cares what you think, shut the hell up!' My response to you is: who the fuck asked you? The only person who's comment truly has no merit is yours. I mean really, you just sound like an ass when you say things like that. And then if we wanna discuss the actual content of your post...

The fact they, as group, haven't taken advantage of it is not due to racism or history, it is due to government intervention, lack of responsibility, reliance on government assistance for generations….pretty much the programs you bleeding hearts support and mandate have been the biggest factor.

I will just say that it would be totally amazing if you wanted to back that up with anything more than your own vaguely racist beliefs. Like, all of what you said there is complete opinion and you offer no evidence. Stupid blacks and their lack of responsibility and reliance on welfare! Stupid democrats for offering welfare! Yeah, that's probably the whole puzzle right there.Also, your whole response has so little to do with my post that you quoted that I'm not even sure you read it.

[SAM_Hard8 50]

It would appear to me that racism is not high on the list of causes of the plight of inner city blacks. It would be lack of access to a good education. As has been pointed out several times in many different threads the democrats have run inner city schools for many years.

This is crap. If a family values a good education a good education will be had. What needs to be changed is the culture and how should the Gov change that? They can't.

[colonel Feathers 5]

Apparently they have worse effects now than they did several generations ago. Well would you say we are a more racist country now than say the turn of the last century? Did you know that black students in Washington DC performed as well or better than their white peers in the early 1900s? It would appear to me that racism is not high on the list of causes of the plight of inner city blacks. It would be lack of access to a good education. As has been pointed out several times in many different threads the democrats have run inner city schools for many years. So what are your solutions? Besides of absolving blacks of any accountability for their own actions. What next? Seriously what do you want to see done? Reparations? What?

inner city blacks that attend private schools do just fine. Its the public schools run by teacher unions that suck.

[Balloon guy 158]

This is crap. If a family values a good education a good education will be had. What needs to be changed is the culture and how should the Gov change that?

Midnight Basketball?

[Zealous Donkey 0]

This is crap. If a family values a good education a good education will be had. What needs to be changed is the culture and how should the Gov change that? They can't.

I think that was my point, the whole education system needs to be changed. The governement has reinforced that culture, so again, I agree the less govt involvement the better. But we do have to be practical, there are not going to be a massive overhaul of education, you can't get democrats to even acknowledge a problem aside from underfunding which is complete BS and has been debunked many times. Charter Schools would offer some relief to a few motivated to get an education. You right though, it really depends on how much you value your childrens education.

[hblask 1]

I will just say that it would be totally amazing if you wanted to back that up

The data

[navybuttons 15]

What needs to be changed is the culture...

which culture?

[CaneBrain 95]

Apparently they have worse effects now than they did several generations ago. Well would you say we are a more racist country now than say the turn of the last century? Did you know that black students in Washington DC performed as well or better than their white peers in the early 1900s? It would appear to me that racism is not high on the list of causes of the plight of inner city blacks. It would be lack of access to a good education. As has been pointed out several times in many different threads the democrats have run inner city schools for many years. So what are your solutions? Besides of absolving blacks of any accountability for their own actions. What next? Seriously what do you want to see done? Reparations? What?

I think Wakefield's point is that the effects/consequences of a long, systemic period of racism are still being felt today and that IS high on the list of causes of the plight of inner city blacks.

[timwakefield 68]

Yes, typo, sorry

Good, cuz I was severely confused .

I actually consider it 3 generations since a sizeable number of people in power have accepted institutuional racism. Basically, I'm old, and it has never been accepted in my memory, and there are two generations after me. You'd probably have to go back to 60 y/o's to find people who openly and unapologetically think like that.

What I really meant by splitting hairs was that obviously we all know that legal segregation ended with the 60s. So whether you want to call that 1 or 2 or 3 generations ago, the point I was making was that people from 'today's generation' are closely related to people who lived through the really bad times. Like, their parents and grandparents. That point still stands, however you want to define a generation.

The government's PRIMARY purpose is the protection of human rights against infringement from others. They failed with a capital F. When they finally stopped failing at their primary job, that was a Good Thing, but hardly a reason to punish people like me and my kids, who had nothing to do with racist sheriffs in rural Dixie.

I guess what I'm not seeing is the punishment. It seems like it's mostly theoretical. Did a black dude steal your job? What's the punishment? I'm pretty sure most of your taxes aren't going to welfare.

[akoff 0]

Stupid blacks and their lack of responsibility and reliance on welfare! I never said that, that would be you who speaking for what you believe. I said it was about being responsible to yourself and family....you disagree with this? The facts are self evident. You need a link to somwhere to see what is obvious if you just look around our country?? My opinions have nothing to due with racism if you chose to not feel that whatever, i no need to defend myself from you. you take the typical route for a Democrat attack and blame others...well done.Stupid democrats for offering welfare! Yeah, that's probably the whole puzzle right there.

you are close on this one, stupid democrats for attempting to help but just making the problems larger and worse...that part is true. Welfare for needy is fine but when you have multi generations living off it as a way of life....yea stupid Democrats. sorry if you don't like this but it is a way of life in many black communities.if this makes me racist...so be it. I didn't create it, I don't think it is good or heathy for anyone.

[timwakefield 68]

you are close on this one, stupid democrats for attempting to help but just making the problems larger and worse...that part is true. Welfare for needy is fine but when you have multi generations living off it as a way of life....yea stupid Democrats. sorry if you don't like this but it is a way of life in many black communities.if this makes me racist...so be it. I didn't create it, I don't think it is good or heathy for anyone.

There is no merit in your comments.

[Sal Paradise 57]

There is no merit in your comments.

hahahahaha

[Zealous Donkey 0]

The data

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Rednecks-Liber...1528&sr=1-1

[Zealous Donkey 0]

I think Wakefield's point is that the effects/consequences of a long, systemic period of racism are still being felt today and that IS high on the list of causes of the plight of inner city blacks.

Well, the most crippling effects today that effect inner city blacks are because they adopted the culture of the racist south. So yes this certainly could be considered a result of the "systemic period of racism" but certainly not in the way he implied. BTW, I am not saying the culture has anything to do with skin color, it doesn't. What, in the inner city is called authentically black is the adaptation of redneck culture of the racist south, and before that the rednecks in Europe, (yes, I believe they were actually called rednecks before they came to this country). My point is that almost all of the recent govt. social programs, and education reforms reinforce this culture which has made the problems worse and longer lasting. If you take any group of people of any color, and adopt the culture that too many inner city blacks have bought into, then you would see the same condition.