Convert Me...

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

unless you are a Calvinist, then it's a done deal so there's really not much to do.

Fred and SHirley Pheleps are Calvinists. A lil fun fact I learned from wone of Shirley's calls to the Adam Carolla show.

[crowTrobot 2]

that's why i brought up kierkegaard earlier--he, perhaps more than any other christian thinker i've ever encountered, was absolutely committed to the idea that religion isn't about being sure of anything, but rather about being profoundly unsure of one's convictions.

nice ideal. unfortunately in functional reality the opposite is true.

[Southern Buddhist 1]

that's why i brought up kierkegaard earlier--he, perhaps more than any other christian thinker i've ever encountered, was absolutely committed to the idea that religion isn't about being sure of anything, but rather about being profoundly unsure of one's convictions. i like that idea, personally, and i think that there are a lot of resources within most traditions to make a similar case.

See, everyone thinks all skeptics are hard-core scientific materialists or faithless hedonistic a-holes or something. What I admire about Christianity is the surrender to the mystery that all great thinkers/believers have managed, notably Kierkegaard but also Thomas Merton, Saint Teresa of Avila, etc. God IS a mystery, because we cannot in this lifetime objectively prove or disprove him. I mean, we all know we're not changing each other's minds here -- we just enjoy the debate. For believers, God is a beautiful mystery. For non-believers, an implausible mystery. But Christians who actually do surrender to the mystery wholeheartedly are so damn few and far between. The rest just hammer us over the head with their boring, earth-bound, hyperpoliticized certainty [i'm excepting BG from that characterization, since I think he's just here to yank chains and raise points in his own affectionately politicized way].Side note: all these people who have "surrendered to the mystery" are Catholics. Protestants seem way more wrapped up in being right and in getting government power than in actually having that ecstatic experience of the holy divine.I disagree that Christianity, biblical or practical, has been all that great for Western Civ. The Greeks and Romans had successful thoracic surgeries, flush toilets, running hot and cold water, and medical and astronomical understanding on a level that often surprises people when they hear about it (i.e., the ancient Greeks not only knew damn well that the earth wasn't flat, they had calculated its circumference to an accuracy of a few hundred miles). After the FIRST (and worst) wave of the plague ripped through the dying Roman empire, people flocked to the new faith in town, Christianity. Christians, once in power, decided that Greek and Roman learning was demon-influenced, so they abandoned it, and many of the ideas they turned their backs on would not be rediscovered again for centuries. The Dark Ages descended when Roman rule vanished and Christianity took over.Not saying they never did anything right, but a lot of knowledge got abandoned because it came from non-believers, at a time when Europe really could have used that knowledge.

[crowTrobot 2]

I think we can both agree that looking at scientology with even a cursory logic test would leave us knowing Tom Cruise is a fruit cake. Just because he was lucky enough to get his world view labeled a religion, doesn't elevate it above tin foil hat status.

it should be significant to you that most of the world views you the same way as you view tom cruise, but somehow it isn't.

[Southern Buddhist 1]

Actually I did prove that. Very clearly and everyone agreed. I can't find the paper work, you'll just have to take my word on it. Really was some good stuff I might add.Ah to be BUDDHIST and care about others again...

FYPFunny that both Crow and I pulled out that Kierkegaard quote.

[crowTrobot 2]

Don't mind me though. I got kicked out of Jr high school and was not allowed to attend the continuation school. So I am mostly ignorant, which explains my being a Christian.

from what you've said i'd guess it was more your alcoholism and stint in AA that explains your being a christian.

[Southern Buddhist 1]

Oh, yeah, the Greeks also had democracy, another good idea that wouldn't return for a few centuries.

[timwakefield 68]

From my perspective it is ridiculous, so my point is that I don't accept the question of whether he exists or not.

So you have faith God doesn't exist?

It's almost like you didn't read my post. I don't have faith one way or the other. Do you have "faith" that other things don't exist? I mean, I can't even begin to think about describing some of the things that don't exist...

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

It's almost like you didn't read my post. I don't have faith one way or the other. Do you have "faith" that other things don't exist? I mean, I can't even begin to think about describing some of the things that don't exist...

it's almost like you didn't read ours...

So you have faith God doesn't exist?

oh god, no one's dumb enough to take that bait, I hope.

I had such a good response prepared.I think I need to learn to be more subtle.How about: So you feel you are sure there is no God?

hey, sorry, I didn't mean to hate on the game you were running on the religious forum newbies lol

Next time check with me please.Man it takes weeks sometimes to get the right thread, get the right responses etc.Not that I think Tim would have really fallen for it.

Looks like we were both wrong, BG..You took the bait, Tim.. hook line and sinker.

[timwakefield 68]

Looks like we were both wrong, BG..You took the bait, Tim.. hook line and sinker.

lol, I guess so. I don't see how my post is naive though...?

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

lol, I guess so. I don't see how my post is naive though...?

LOL it's not that, it's that BG was just obviously trying to bait someone into that. He just wanted to yank on some atheist chains, because he knows nothing fires atheists up like being told that atheism is faith based. After having my chain pulled by BG on several occasions, and sinking right into the bait, letting myself get fired up, my radar is finally getting attuned to it.

[KramitDaToad 0]

Boy, are you gonna get flamed. I dunno if you've read the rest of this thread, but apparently atheism isn't something that you convert to. You return there once you revert to thinking objectively.

FYPYou're getting closer. Atheism is the null set of irrationality.

[SuperJon 175]

I disagree that Christianity, biblical or practical, has been all that great for Western Civ. The Greeks and Romans had successful thoracic surgeries, flush toilets, running hot and cold water, and medical and astronomical understanding on a level that often surprises people when they hear about it (i.e., the ancient Greeks not only knew damn well that the earth wasn't flat, they had calculated its circumference to an accuracy of a few hundred miles). After the FIRST (and worst) wave of the plague ripped through the dying Roman empire, people flocked to the new faith in town, Christianity. Christians, once in power, decided that Greek and Roman learning was demon-influenced, so they abandoned it, and many of the ideas they turned their backs on would not be rediscovered again for centuries. The Dark Ages descended when Roman rule vanished and Christianity took over.Not saying they never did anything right, but a lot of knowledge got abandoned because it came from non-believers, at a time when Europe really could have used that knowledge.

So what you're saying is, the Christians caused the plauge.

[Balloon guy 158]

it should be significant to you that most of the world views you the same way as you view tom cruise, but somehow it isn't.

I guess if you rule your life by how others view you then you would have something there.but I guess MOST of the world will just have to get along with out me.

[Balloon guy 158]

LOL it's not that, it's that BG was just obviously trying to bait someone into that. He just wanted to yank on some atheist chains, because he knows nothing fires atheists up like being told that atheism is faith based. After having my chain pulled by BG on several occasions, and sinking right into the bait, letting myself get fired up, my radar is finally getting attuned to it.

I'll get you again my pretty.......and your little dog too.

[Balloon guy 158]

FYPYou're getting closer. Atheism is the null set of irrationality.

You're getting closer.Nihilism differs from skepticism in that skepticism doesn't reject claims to truth outright; it only rejects these claims if there is insufficient empirical evidence to support them. Additionally, skepticism does not necessarily come to any conclusions about the reality of moral concepts nor does it deal so intimately with questions about the meaning of an existence without knowable truth.

[KramitDaToad 0]

You're getting closer.Nihilism differs from skepticism in that skepticism doesn't reject claims to truth outright; it only rejects these claims if there is insufficient empirical evidence to support them. Additionally, skepticism does not necessarily come to any conclusions about the reality of moral concepts nor does it deal so intimately with questions about the meaning of an existence without knowable truth.

You're not.Skepticism and/or Nihilism != AtheismHope you cut & paste that quote as wasted keystrokes are not refundable

[Spademan 94]

There is a shit ton of drivel up in this mother.

[Southern Buddhist 1]

So what you're saying is, the Christians caused the plauge.

Not even remotely.

[Balloon guy 158]

Not even remotely.

The plauge casued Christianity?

[Balloon guy 158]

I love how people slap "IMO" on stuff, and expect their retarded statements to somehow be immune to criticism. "I can't be wrong, dude, it's just like, my opinion, man"

With all due respect: That is really a dumb thing to say. Really dumb.With all due respect.

[speedz99 145]

With all due respect: That is really a dumb thing to say. Really dumb.With all due respect.

No offense, but you can go fuck yourself.

[Balloon guy 158]

No offense, but you can go *** yourself.

I'm just saying, you are a bone head.I'm JUST saying

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I'm just saying, you are a bone head.I'm JUST saying

yeah, well, it is what it is.

[Southern Buddhist 1]

The plauge casued Christianity?

Just say no to spelling drift.I'm just giving a quick and dirty timeline. Christians start out as a small, marginal sect. Empire is already dying -- land lost, lousy emperors, invasions from the East, etc. One of the last blows to the empire is the first wave of Black Death. [Just to prove I watch too much History Channel: the first wave of the plague was called the Plague of Justinian, in 541-2 AD, and it killed an estimated 100 million people worldwide. There's also a Wikipedia article on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian. That actually makes it twice as bad as the medieval plague that most people are familiar with.] It was so devastating that the Roman-based systems that people had trusted, like civil religion, medicine, and government, collapsed in the face of it. People assumed that their gods had let them down or turned their backs on the empire. Christians leapt into this breach and asserted that their God was stronger than the plague and that they were still alive because of it (truth is, believers died, too, but possibly in fewer numbers because they did segregate themselves from city life). Many traumatized Romans embraced the new faith. Christianity expanded greatly (so while the plague didn't cause Christianity, you're much closer to the truth than SuperJon, because the plague did help it grow). Christians, following their logic, ignored Roman libraries, denounced Roman learning, and abandoned the Roman point of view and way of life, because all of that was God-less. The result of that was what Petrarch dubbed "The Dark Ages," when the light of Greece and Rome had gone out and in its place was left only the darkness of a fairly despotic Catholic papacy.So the plague helped Christianity expand and helped tighten the Pope's grip on what was left of the empire, and Christians did play a significant role in causing the Dark Ages (and most other European history after that)......in my view. I don't add that to say "don't argue with me." Just the opposite -- I add it to say, "I don't pretend to have the only version of truth. Here's my opinion, but don't take my word for it. Learn the details yourself and come to your own conclusion."Damn, I love history!We now return to the atheism debate already in progress.Actually, as a secondary note, let me add this. I would also include Daniel's faith in what I call "surrendering to the mystery." Jerry Yang's praying that his hand would hold up is that version of faith that I don't admire -- the God-as-cosmic-Santa/slot machine version of faith, the "gimme, gimme, gimme" level of faith, the kind that puts money and poker first. Daniel's kind of prayer is that he becomes a better person, that he serves God's will, that he embodies (a concept I love) divine love. That's not quite as extreme as Kierkegaard or Teresa of Avila, but it's in the same direction. That is surrendering the ego to something greater, and I don't see how Yang's prayer is. So even though I don't share Daniel's faith, I don't diss it either. [Well, not too much -- it's hard not to be snarky when I hear rednecks around here asking Jesus for help paying their cable bill.]