Convert Me...

[Balloon guy 158]

i don't think this is the point. i would hope that religion has more value to you than just being right. religions can have equal value without even worrying about truth/faslity.

Depends on your definition of religion

[Balloon guy 158]

Well, if you think the consequences of being wrong is eternal suffering, I can't imagine what would be more important to you than not only being right, but having no doubt that you are right.

This would be similar to mine

[Southern Buddhist 1]

You only assign greater value to one religion (your own) because you already believe its claim to be the one true faith. And everyone else inside the other religions assigns the same, greater value to their own faith because they accepts its claims. Your argument demands prior belief. Without that belief, your religion has no greater value than any other.You also assert the falsity of other faiths based on your own prior belief. Again, to anyone who doesn't already share your prior belief, that's not a convincing argument.

[checkymcfold 0]

Well, if you think the consequences of being wrong is eternal suffering, I can't imagine what would be more important to you than not only being right, but having no doubt that you are right.

i'm not a fan of afterlife stories, personally, but i think that even they can be understood in a different sort of context than just right/wrong. if you focus on the positive aspects of the christian understanding of heaven and hell, you find stories of redemption, of reward for being a good person, and of happiness, generally. you could do otherwise, i suppose, but i don't see a lot of value in claiming the authority for saying others are going to hell when that right is explicitly reserved for god even within one's own tradition.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

This would be similar to mine

I thought it was, which was why I brought it up. Fear of hell is a powerful thing, and I don't really blame people for not being able to overcome it.

i'm not a fan of afterlife stories, personally, but i think that even they can be understood in a different sort of context than just right/wrong. if you focus on the positive aspects of the christian understanding of heaven and hell, you find stories of redemption, of reward for being a good person, and of happiness, generally. you could do otherwise, i suppose, but i don't see a lot of value in claiming the authority for saying others are going to hell when that right is explicitly reserved for god even within one's own tradition.

Oh, I agree with you, I was just playing devil's advocate, so to speak. If you take, as a given, that people who don't believe x are going to hell, and you truly believe that, that I think a lot of the ways christians act and talk makes much more sense. I personally don't believe in an afterlife, but if one does believe in hell, many christians' behavior is fairly logical. I just don't accept their premises.

[Balloon guy 158]

You only assign greater value to one religion (your own) because you already believe its claim to be the one true faith. And everyone else inside the other religions assigns the same, greater value to their own faith because they accepts its claims. Your argument demands prior belief. Without that belief, your religion has no greater value than any other.You also assert the falsity of other faiths based on your own prior belief. Again, to anyone who doesn't already share your prior belief, that's not a convincing argument.

You are assuming I know nothing of these other religions. And that there is no correct religion.Put it this way: If God Himself came down and declared Biblical Christianity to be 100% true, would my prior belief make any difference to what He said?I think we can both agree that looking at scientology with even a cursory logic test would leave us knowing Tom Cruise is a fruit cake. Just because he was lucky enough to get his world view labeled a religion, doesn't elevate it above tin foil hat status.

[Balloon guy 158]

i'm not a fan of afterlife stories, personally, but i think that even they can be understood in a different sort of context than just right/wrong. if you focus on the positive aspects of the christian understanding of heaven and hell, you find stories of redemption, of reward for being a good person, and of happiness, generally. you could do otherwise, i suppose, but i don't see a lot of value in claiming the authority for saying others are going to hell when that right is explicitly reserved for god even within one's own tradition.

There is also a difference between telling someone and warning someone.Picking the worst examples doesn't make for good debate.But on a social scale, I agree that Biblical Christianity has had very good results for society and governments. Even though it is not without a few skeletons

[Southern Buddhist 1]

i don't see a lot of value in claiming the authority for saying others are going to hell when that right is explicitly reserved for god even within one's own tradition.

It's that God-ventriloquism act again. I've had Xians tell me exactly what God thinks of something. When I asked point-blank, "Do you actually believe you know, for 100% certain, what's in God's mind?" they say, "YES -- because the bible tells me, and it's God's word, so God has told me what he thinks and I can tell you what he thinks with absolute certainty and I can speak on his behalf here on earth."Depending on your viewpoint, that's either: [ ] freaking back-away-slowly scary[ ] blasphemous (see the book of Job for God getting pissed at having his ways/plans/thoughts assumed for him)[ ] a reflection of nothing more than their own opinionOr, if you're a Xian:[ ] a perfectly innocuous truth

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

You are assuming I know nothing of these other religions. And that there is no correct religion.Put it this way: If God Himself came down and declared Biblical Christianity to be 100% true, would my prior belief make any difference to what He said?I think we can both agree that looking at scientology with even a cursory logic test would leave us knowing Tom Cruise is a fruit cake. Just because he was lucky enough to get his world view labeled a religion, doesn't elevate it above tin foil hat status.

you, maybe.. I label him fruit cake.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

There is also a difference between telling someone and warning someone.Picking the worst examples doesn't make for good debate.But on a social scale, I agree that Biblical Christianity has had very good results for society and governments. Even though it is not without a few skeletons

Well, I don't know about biblical christianity, but practical christianity has had tremendous success.

[Balloon guy 158]

Well, I don't know about biblical christianity, but practical christianity has had tremendous success.

We keep ending up agreeing on things.We must be incredibly open minded and able to overlook petty things like politics and religions.I guess what I'm saying is that for a heathen with a foul mouth, you're not a bad guy.

[Balloon guy 158]

It's that God-ventriloquism act again. I've had Xians tell me exactly what God thinks of something. When I asked point-blank, "Do you actually believe you know, for 100% certain, what's in God's mind?" they say, "YES -- because the bible tells me, and it's God's word, so God has told me what he thinks and I can tell you what he thinks with absolute certainty and I can speak on his behalf here on earth."Depending on your viewpoint, that's either: [ ] freaking back-away-slowly scary[ ] blasphemous (see the book of Job for God getting pissed at having his ways/plans/thoughts assumed for him)[ ] a reflection of nothing more than their own opinionOr, if you're a Xian:[ ] a perfectly innocuous truth

Depends on he subject really. Many things are very black and white in the Bible.It clearly says don't bear false witness. So if you ask me if God would mind if you perjure yourself about your boss, I cna easily say God doesn't want you to do that.If you want to know who to vote for: God clearly wants you to not vote democratMuch of the rest is kind of open to interpretation

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

We keep ending up agreeing on things.We must be incredibly open minded and able to overlook petty things like politics and religions.I guess what I'm saying is that for a heathen with a foul mouth, you're not a bad guy.

man, it took a long time for that warm up to happen. Part of it is I'm not as angry as I was a while back, I was pretty depressed and bitter for a while there. Not so much now, though I can still be caustic and foul mouthed.And also, to be fair.. the enlightenment, the age of reason, and the secularization of government also had a great deal to do with the success of western civilization, I'm not just going to give xianity all the credit.

[checkymcfold 0]

Oh, I agree with you, I was just playing devil's advocate, so to speak. If you take, as a given, that people who don't believe x are going to hell, and you truly believe that, that I think a lot of the ways christians act and talk makes much more sense. I personally don't believe in an afterlife, but if I did believe in hell, many christians' behavior is fairly logical. I just don't accept their premises.

that's probably fair, i suppose. i'm not so much a fan of literal interpretations of anything religious, but i don't think that arguing with christians about their premises is necessarily the most functional way of going about things. if you want to change someone's mind, you're probably better off finding resources from within their logical framework to do so, rather than having them throw out the whole framework itself and ask them to throw their world into upheaval. the fortunate thing for religious debate is that religious texts in general are multivalent enough to allow multiple interpretations without anyone being able to claim the final word. that's why i brought up kierkegaard earlier--he, perhaps more than any other christian thinker i've ever encountered, was absolutely committed to the idea that religion isn't about being sure of anything, but rather about being profoundly unsure of one's convictions. i like that idea, personally, and i think that there are a lot of resources within most traditions to make a similar case.

[gilbertology 0]

someone sent me this link and i watched the first 30 mins or so, pretty interesting. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=55...h&plindex=0

[Southern Buddhist 1]

You are assuming I know nothing of these other religions. And that there is no correct religion.Put it this way: If God Himself came down and declared Biblical Christianity to be 100% true, would my prior belief make any difference to what He said?I think we can both agree that looking at scientology with even a cursory logic test would leave us knowing Tom Cruise is a fruit cake. Just because he was lucky enough to get his world view labeled a religion, doesn't elevate it above tin foil hat status.

I make no assumptions about what you might know of other religions. You might know plenty, but still have prior faith in your own; or you might know nothing and have prior faith. It works either way. We've been in the same forums often enough that I do respect your intellect and I would not assume that you're dumb about anything.I am assuming that there is no correct religion based on what we know now here on earth, from our limited perspective and information. I don't believe that you (or anyone else) has ever definitively proven all other faiths false without falling back on an appeal to something that is prior belief, such as "the bible is truth" or something similar."If God came down and declared..." That's the problem. That's an extra-large IF, isn't it? And if your next answer is, "no, he DID do that in the form of Jesus," then bang, you're right back to prior belief, because that's only a convincing argument if I already believe that Jesus is the son of/is God, which I don't.Re: Tom Cruise, yep, we both agree. Also that his tin foil hat is gay, gay, gay.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

someone sent me this link and i watched the first 30 mins or so, pretty interesting. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=55...h&plindex=0

[gilbertology 0]

lol yeh i figured that video has been posted a million times. I only ventured into this forum because i saw Jamie had the last post but i also don't want to read through this thread - therefore the link to said video and me dissapearing while more religious argumentation funtimez ensues.

[checkymcfold 0]

There is also a difference between telling someone and warning someone.Picking the worst examples doesn't make for good debate.But on a social scale, I agree that Biblical Christianity has had very good results for society and governments. Even though it is not without a few skeletons

well, here, on the same token as what i just mentioned to BDMG, i don't think christian warnings ought to be phrased in such absolute terms. if it's not the most productive for atheists to try to convince christians by having them drop their christian axioms, so too would it not be best for a christian to convince an atheist not to end up in hell by threatening him/her with stories of eternal damnation and devil-torment. if you want to spread the gospel, don't do it by telling people they're going to hell. positive rather than negative reinforcement, etc., etc.it's all about the rhetoric, baby. the rhetoric.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

lol yeh i figured that video has been posted a million times. I only ventured into this forum because i saw Jamie had the last post but i also don't want to read through this thread - therefore the link to said video and me dissapearing while more religious argumentation funtimez ensues.

[checkymcfold 0]

lol yeh i figured that video has been posted a million times. I only ventured into this forum because i saw Jamie had the last post but i also don't want to read through this thread - therefore the link to said video and me dissapearing while more religious argumentation funtimez ensues.

read through it. you might learn something, donkey.

[Balloon guy 158]

read through it. you might learn something, donkey.

Again with the groundless faith.this thread is full of it

[checkymcfold 0]

Again with the groundless faith.this thread is full of it

balloons, too, are full of hot air. js.

[Balloon guy 158]

well, here, on the same token as what i just mentioned to BDMG, i don't think christian warnings ought to be phrased in such absolute terms. if it's not the most productive for atheists to try to convince christians by having them drop their christian axioms, so too would it not be best for a christian to convince an atheist not to end up in hell by threatening him/her with stories of eternal damnation and devil-torment. if you want to spread the gospel, don't do it by telling people they're going to hell. positive rather than negative reinforcement, etc., etc.it's all about the marketing, baby. the marketing.

unless you are a Calvinist, then it's a done deal so there's really not much to do.

[Balloon guy 158]

I make no assumptions about what you might know of other religions. You might know plenty, but still have prior faith in your own; or you might know nothing and have prior faith. It works either way. We've been in the same forums often enough that I do respect your intellect and I would not assume that you're dumb about anything.I am assuming that there is no correct religion based on what we know now here on earth, from our limited perspective and information. I don't believe that you (or anyone else) has ever definitively proven all other faiths false without falling back on an appeal to something that is prior belief, such as "the bible is truth" or something similar."If God came down and declared..." That's the problem. That's an extra-large IF, isn't it? And if your next answer is, "no, he DID do that in the form of Jesus," then bang, you're right back to prior belief, because that's only a convincing argument if I already believe that Jesus is the son of/is God, which I don't.Re: Tom Cruise, yep, we both agree. Also that his tin foil hat is gay, gay, gay.

Actually I did prove that. Very clearly and everyone agreed. I can't find the paper work, you'll just have to take my word on it. Really was some good stuff I might add.Ah to be young and care about others again...