Convert Me...

[Balloon guy 158]

yeah, well, it is what it is.

There you go

[Loismustdie 0]

Just say no to spelling drift.I'm just giving a quick and dirty timeline. Christians start out as a small, marginal sect. Empire is already dying -- land lost, lousy emperors, invasions from the East, etc. One of the last blows to the empire is the first wave of Black Death. [Just to prove I watch too much History Channel: the first wave of the plague was called the Plague of Justinian, in 541-2 AD, and it killed an estimated 100 million people worldwide. There's also a Wikipedia article on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian. That actually makes it twice as bad as the medieval plague that most people are familiar with.] It was so devastating that the Roman-based systems that people had trusted, like civil religion, medicine, and government, collapsed in the face of it. People assumed that their gods had let them down or turned their backs on the empire. Christians leapt into this breach and asserted that their God was stronger than the plague and that they were still alive because of it (truth is, believers died, too, but possibly in fewer numbers because they did segregate themselves from city life). Many traumatized Romans embraced the new faith. Christianity expanded greatly (so while the plague didn't cause Christianity, you're much closer to the truth than SuperJon, because the plague did help it grow). Christians, following their logic, ignored Roman libraries, denounced Roman learning, and abandoned the Roman point of view and way of life, because all of that was God-less. The result of that was what Petrarch dubbed "The Dark Ages," when the light of Greece and Rome had gone out and in its place was left only the darkness of a fairly despotic Catholic papacy.So the plague helped Christianity expand and helped tighten the Pope's grip on what was left of the empire, and Christians did play a significant role in causing the Dark Ages (and most other European history after that)......in my view. I don't add that to say "don't argue with me." Just the opposite -- I add it to say, "I don't pretend to have the only version of truth. Here's my opinion, but don't take my word for it. Learn the details yourself and come to your own conclusion."Damn, I love history!We now return to the atheism debate already in progress.Actually, as a secondary note, let me add this. I would also include Daniel's faith in what I call "surrendering to the mystery." Jerry Yang's praying that his hand would hold up is that version of faith that I don't admire -- the God-as-cosmic-Santa/slot machine version of faith, the "gimme, gimme, gimme" level of faith, the kind that puts money and poker first. Daniel's kind of prayer is that he becomes a better person, that he serves God's will, that he embodies (a concept I love) divine love. That's not quite as extreme as Kierkegaard or Teresa of Avila, but it's in the same direction. That is surrendering the ego to something greater, and I don't see how Yang's prayer is. So even though I don't share Daniel's faith, I don't diss it either. [Well, not too much -- it's hard not to be snarky when I hear rednecks around here asking Jesus for help paying their cable bill.]

Jerry Yangs "faith" is a sham. Just sayin. As far as your dark ages spiel, no. Christianity ran for the hills during the dark ages, or haven't you ever compared what the bible says to what catholocism says? It's not the same thing, far from it. I see what you are saying, but the light of christ was just as dim at that time.

[checkymcfold 0]

Jerry Yangs "faith" is a sham. Just sayin. As far as your dark ages spiel, no. Christianity ran for the hills during the dark ages, or haven't you ever compared what the bible says to what catholocism says? It's not the same thing, far from it. I see what you are saying, but the light of christ was just as dim at that time.

you really shouldn't say stuff like this if you don't want to open yourself to all sorts of criticism.fwiw, SB et al, there is a really good book on female christian mystics by amy hollywood that kinda echoes what we're talking about re: kierkegaard in parts (though that's not her primary aim): sensible ecstasy.

[Loismustdie 0]

you really shouldn't say stuff like this if you don't want to open yourself to all sorts of criticism.fwiw, SB et al, there is a really good book on female christian mystics by amy hollywood that kinda echoes what we're talking about re: kierkegaard in parts (though that's not her primary aim): sensible ecstasy.

Take your best shot. I will say it again- a total sham, a joke. What kind of christian gets in bed with all sorts of gamblers and then has the audacity to pray to God on national television- sort of prayer fighting if you remember- and pretend that God actually cares whether or not he wins this money. It was a sickening display of a complete lack of understanding of what God is about. Devastating for real christians everywhere, too, because of the results. Satan is awesome. Remember, I stopped going to church because of my love for gambling and this fine game we play. I did not stop believing in God, but my belief and understanding of how God thinks does dictate that this is a different path than one God would approve of. It's that simple. I am keenly aware of the idea that when it comes to this lifestyle, this thing we do, love, aspire to be great at, God does not care one iota to see me succeed at it. Not one bit. It goes against everything Christ was about.

[checkymcfold 0]

Take your best shot. I will say it again- a total sham, a joke. What kind of christian gets in bed with all sorts of gamblers and then has the audacity to pray to God on national television- sort of prayer fighting if you remember- and pretend that God actually cares whether or not he wins this money. It was a sickening display of a complete lack of understanding of what God is about. Devastating for real christians everywhere, too, because of the results. Satan is awesome. Remember, I stopped going to church because of my love for gambling and this fine game we play. I did not stop believing in God, but my belief and understanding of how God thinks does dictate that this is a different path than one God would approve of. It's that simple. I am keenly aware of the idea that when it comes to this lifestyle, this thing we do, love, aspire to be great at, God does not care one iota to see me succeed at it. Not one bit. It goes against everything Christ was about.

mostly what i mean is that i don't understand why you care what someone else does with their own understanding of christianity. if you start to care about what other christians say and do, then it's only fair that you allow them to criticize your version of christianity as well. which is more than a little weird, imo.

[Loismustdie 0]

mostly what i mean is that i don't understand why you care what someone else does with their own understanding of christianity. if you start to care about what other christians say and do, then it's only fair that you allow them to criticize your version of christianity as well. which is more than a little weird, imo.

I don't care. God does, in that the end result is hell. Yang can live as he pleases. No skin off my back. That being said, it's fairly easy to see what a joke that was, easier to say it out loud. Who said you can't criticize me? Criticize away. I have no problem with that, if anything, I invite it. I don't think you know what you are talking about.

[speedz99 145]

Who said you can't criticize me? Criticize away. I have no problem with that, if anything, I invite it.

Ooh, can I play?You gave up going to church in favor of gambling even though you know it's wrong (according to your version of Christianity, anyway)...and yet you have the balls to criticize someone else for being a bad Christian when it comes to playing poker. I don't disagree with what you were saying about Yang, but it's incredibly hypocritical for you to be the one that says it. It seems to me that in many ways your version of god would consider you way worse than someone like Yang. He probably sincerely believes in his heart that god would want him, a good christian who would do good works with the money, to conquer the playing field...so he acts accordingly. You, on the other hand, think that you know what god wants you to do, and yet you do the exact opposite by continuing to gamble...and, not only that, you quit going to church (compounding your error). I think Pascal's wager is bogus, but if it turns out to be valid, you're in some serious trouble.That was fun, thanks for the invite.

[Loismustdie 0]

Ooh, can I play?You gave up going to church in favor of gambling even though you know it's wrong (according to your version of Christianity, anyway)...and yet you have the balls to criticize someone else for being a bad Christian when it comes to playing poker. I don't disagree with what you were saying about Yang, but it's incredibly hypocritical for you to be the one that says it. It seems to me that in many ways your version of god would consider you way worse than someone like Yang. He probably sincerely believes in his heart that god would want him, a good christian who would do good works with the money, to conquer the playing field...so he acts accordingly. You, on the other hand, think that you know what god wants you to do, and yet you do the exact opposite by continuing to gamble...and, not only that, you quit going to church (compounding your error). I think Pascal's wager is bogus, but if it turns out to be valid, you're in some serious trouble.That was fun, thanks for the invite.

Lol. So, I believe that according to christianity this lifestyle isn't the way to go, and then instead of living a lie I choose my path, but I cannot point out when someone else is living a lie? It's actually the opposite of hypocrisy if you think about it.

[speedz99 145]

Lol. So, I believe that according to christianity this lifestyle isn't the way to go, and then instead of living a lie I choose my path, but I cannot point out when someone else is living a lie?

I'm saying that in his heart he probably believes that he is following the right path. You KNOW that you're following the wrong path. I have no idea if there's a path or how to get on it.If there really is a god that knows our every thought and feeling, I'm guessing that you're in the worst shape here. Just saying, if you truly believe in hell I'm not sure why you do what you do.

[Loismustdie 0]

I'm saying that in his heart he probably believes that he is following the right path. You KNOW that you're following the wrong path. I have no idea if there's a path or how to get on it.If there really is a god that knows our every thought and feeling, I'm guessing that you're in the worst shape here. Just saying, if you truly believe in hell I'm not sure why you do what you do.

Because I have free will, and each needs to choose his own path. It's hard to give your life to God, it really is. Handing over ones own will is a daunting task. Not like poker has gone all that well for me. I agree that my punishment would be/will be worse, knowing and not obeying. You are right about that... there are reasons why few will be saved. This flesh is strong, and even knowing all that I do, still hard to do what is right. It's more than just poker, obviously. My wife isn't exactly down with God, which is tough to deal with. There are alot of things that I love that I shouldn't, and when I say I chose to not go to church anymore thats not to say I didn't try to serve two masters, I did. It just doesn't work. I can't tell you how many months I would drag myself to church and sit there and either doze or run through hands and scenarios, and then zoom home so I could play in the big guaranteeds on Sundays. I no longer had the desire to serve God. Tough to swallow but it's true- I was so torn it made me sick, but poker won. All that being said, I have learned more about myself and who I am not going to church than I did while in church. Combination of things, really, but mostly I see now that I never really was in it to begin with. I was living a lie even as I thought I wasn't, doing things because I thought it was expected, playing the part, etc.,but not really changing. I know me more now than I ever did. So, while I see what you are saying, it's not hypocrisy. Like I have said many times what I believe condemns me as well.

[speedz99 145]

So what you're saying is that you believe in the unquestionable truth of christianity (or whatever sect you're in)...but it's just not for you? And you mentioned punishment, but I thought it was all or nothing, heaven or hell. Are you saying that I'll get one punishment for being unsure about whether or not there's a god (say 7 years in purgatory) and you'll get another for believing in him but not following his expressed commands (say 3 years in hell)?I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this one.

[Loismustdie 0]

So what you're saying is that you believe in the unquestionable truth of christianity (or whatever sect you're in)...but it's just not for you? And you mentioned punishment, but I thought it was all or nothing, heaven or hell. Are you saying that I'll get one punishment for being unsure about whether or not there's a god (say 7 years in purgatory) and you'll get another for believing in him but not following his expressed commands (say 3 years in hell)?I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this one.

Actually, biblically, yes. He does say those that know and don't do will receive a harsher punishment. Heaven and Hell will not be the same for all- some will receive different punishment/reward than others. Still for eternity, but at different levels if you will. In physical terms, you may sing in the choir and I may shine your shoes. Still in heaven, can't beat it, but he does allude to possible status in heaven, a hierarchy that even in the end would continue. The same goes for hell.

[Loismustdie 0]

So what you're saying is that you believe in the unquestionable truth of christianity (or whatever sect you're in)...but it's just not for you? And you mentioned punishment, but I thought it was all or nothing, heaven or hell. Are you saying that I'll get one punishment for being unsure about whether or not there's a god (say 7 years in purgatory) and you'll get another for believing in him but not following his expressed commands (say 3 years in hell)?I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this one.

I hate to put it that way, that it's not for me, because I wish I could obey, I do, and I believe that someday I will, even though I know that belief is irrational because we have no guarantee of someday. But, when it comes down to it, yes, I had/have a problem with putting God first. If it makes you feel better realize that none of this is said lightly. I absolutely love the church, the people, if I wasn't raised the way I was I would not be who I am today, would not even be able to see a possible way through who I am today, and even in not putting god first I believe that I have made some large strides as a person in the past few years, so maybe my path is a bit different, but either way at some point I will have to let go of my will, if I don't it will not work and I will not be in heaven when I die. I do know this- God would rather have you walk away than pretend and be lukewarm, he REALLY hates that, and I wonder if he realizes that for some people, for whatever reason, they are just not ready and he may even allow them time to become ready, I don't know. I certainly hope so. I have a good heart, and have changed so much in the past few years, but to say that I had given up on some of my dreams that have nothing to do with serving God would just be a lie.

[Balloon guy 158]

You know lois, when you first accepted Christ, and were on fire for Him. God knew at that moment all the things you were going to do now, and He still picked you.He isn't done with you, even if you feel you are on a break, you're not.But I know you know that, I am more just keeping this fresh in your mind.I would cast a stone, but I am fresh out from throwing them at myself.

[speedz99 145]

You know lois, when you first accepted Christ, and were on fire for Him. God knew at that moment all the things you were going to do now, and He still picked you.

Are you saying this literally, or figuratively?Lois, I found that all really interesting, thanks.

[checkymcfold 0]

ugh, double post.

[checkymcfold 0]

I don't care. God does, in that the end result is hell. Yang can live as he pleases. No skin off my back. That being said, it's fairly easy to see what a joke that was, easier to say it out loud. Who said you can't criticize me? Criticize away. I have no problem with that, if anything, I invite it. I don't think you know what you are talking about.

if it was a joke, meh. the idea was to point out that whole "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" thing. i have very little vested in criticizing your or any other person's religion unless you try to tell me what to do too often. that's been my argument all along. if you want me to, i will, but i don't think either of us wants that. :)i'm sure i know what i'm talking about, btw. i'm also reasonably sure that you do. i'm not in this for a fight or defensiveness, lol.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Actually, biblically, yes. He does say those that know and don't do will receive a harsher punishment. Heaven and Hell will not be the same for all- some will receive different punishment/reward than others. Still for eternity, but at different levels if you will. In physical terms, you may sing in the choir and I may shine your shoes. Still in heaven, can't beat it, but he does allude to possible status in heaven, a hierarchy that even in the end would continue. The same goes for hell.

Well, I'll see you in the pit then I suppose. This is the best stuff I've read in a while, Lois. Fascinating, and yet tragic. I feel in many ways, I went down the same path you did, w/r/t serving two masters and what not... but my path eventually lead me to rejecting the church entirely, and while it was incredibly hard for me at the time, it eventually brought me peace of mind. It's much better than living in a netherworld, or living a lie. I hope that you soon either go back to the church, or embrace atheism, 'cause no one needs that kind of guilt and duality hanging around their neck.

[Loismustdie 0]

You know lois, when you first accepted Christ, and were on fire for Him. God knew at that moment all the things you were going to do now, and He still picked you.He isn't done with you, even if you feel you are on a break, you're not.But I know you know that, I am more just keeping this fresh in your mind.I would cast a stone, but I am fresh out from throwing them at myself.

Sometimes, when I am feeling a bit hopeless I think about that- "Frank, he is not done with you, not by a long shot." There are times when that is all that is left, just hope, especially the times when you are not what you should be. As far as casting stones, it's funny how people react but I am perfectly comfortable winding up and firing away because I know that literally nobody is more vicious throwing them at me then none other than me. It's funny,too, because I wish this was a break!!! In some ways it is but in many others it is so far from it. I will throw this out there, although I think it is coincidental, or maybe it isn't. I have not had a true tourney win since I stopped attending church, except for the Protege thing I have not truly taken down ANYTHING, and that was only a win in that I have a signed DVD saying I was there, with my fat sunburned ass playing like crap. Now, my theory is that once I made that mental turn and decided to just focus on my selfish I dream I just went full bore into degeneracy with no real compunctions and maybe it was the constant guilt from before that kept me wary, kept me on my toes, and once I tossed it aside the adrenaline took over and my play suffered. I know that once I let myself slip into the 50 hour a week full blown addiction everything changed. Having gone through all of that though has been a boon for me as a person in terms of making me seriously look at me, at who I was and what was driving me, the reasons behind it, etc. and even before poker I was very selfish. I still am, just less so. Interesting little thing- this year I did not get the raise I thought I deserved or the bonus, and it mattered very little to me. My boss tried to paint my year as some sort of failure, but I know what this year was about. I must work, but this year was not about advancing at work, this year was about focusing on family, debt that I had accumulated, rebuilding the relationship with my wife, etc. While my boss is trying to paint this year as "You did not reach your potential" I am thinking,"Man, I haven't even scraped the surface, but I am getting there, and it has nothing to do with my employee ranking." First time in my life I received a crap raise and it literally meant nothing to me, because what I made this year I cannot buy. Don't get me wrong, I was attentive at work, nobody worked more OT on my team than I did, I was just focused on making as much as I could without the pressure of being ranked numero uno and I pulled that off. Win some, lose some, but in the end this year I feel like a winnerx10. Alright, that's enough peeking behind the curtain. Bring on the dinosaur threads.

[Loismustdie 0]

Well, I'll see you in the pit then I suppose. This is the best stuff I've read in a while, Lois. Fascinating, and yet tragic. I feel in many ways, I went down the same path you did, w/r/t serving two masters and what not... but my path eventually lead me to rejecting the church entirely, and while it was incredibly hard for me at the time, it eventually brought me peace of mind. It's much better than living in a netherworld, or living a lie. I hope that you soon either go back to the church, or embrace atheism, 'cause no one needs that kind of guilt and duality hanging around their neck.

There is a certain peace in going your own way. It's hard to explain. My mom certaintly doesn't get it.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

There is a certain peace in going your own way. It's hard to explain. My mom certaintly doesn't get it.

I just lie to my mom... if she knew i was an athiest, it would put her in the hospital with worry. Literally. Keeping her content and worry free is more important to me than proving some dumb, selfish point about my beliefs.Not saying that you are being dumb or selfish, I'm more talking about atheists who do it as a form of rebellion, to piss off their xian parents.

[Southern Buddhist 1]

This is very interesting and deep stuff. I left for the same reason...no great dilemma, but I knew I didn't feel it in my heart, and thought it was far better to be honest and walk away than it was to lie and fake my way through. I wanted something that spoke to my heart, and researched all the faiths until I found it.By the way, Lois, I think I might have given you the impression that I'm Catholic. I'm not. It's just that for 1300 years, it had the hammerlock on church, until the Protestant Reformation. And since history is my thing and what I'm interested in is how the faith got from Jesus to where it stands today, I wind up doing a lot of reading about the first 1,000 years of church history. My next really big reading project is a 600-page history of the Reformation itself. I'm a geek for saying this, but I'm looking forward to it. After I finish that, I'll probably sound very Lutheran.What you're doing is something I have respect for: you're querying your faith, engaging in a dialogue with it that is broader and deeper than most people would dare do.

[Loismustdie 0]

This is very interesting and deep stuff. I left for the same reason...no great dilemma, but I knew I didn't feel it in my heart, and thought it was far better to be honest and walk away than it was to lie and fake my way through. I wanted something that spoke to my heart, and researched all the faiths until I found it.By the way, Lois, I think I might have given you the impression that I'm Catholic. I'm not. It's just that for 1300 years, it had the hammerlock on church, until the Protestant Reformation. And since history is my thing and what I'm interested in is how the faith got from Jesus to where it stands today, I wind up doing a lot of reading about the first 1,000 years of church history. My next really big reading project is a 600-page history of the Reformation itself. I'm a geek for saying this, but I'm looking forward to it. After I finish that, I'll probably sound very Lutheran.What you're doing is something I have respect for: you're querying your faith, engaging in a dialogue with it that is broader and deeper than most people would dare do.

Maybe, although I see it as more a questioning of me vs. a questioning of the faith itself. I am reminded quite a bit of Paul and King Agrippa, where Paul is teaching him, and the king says,"Almost thou hast persuaded me." It says alot, in that he was right there, but for whatever reason just couldn't bring himself to obey, the bible never says why. Almost is a valuable lesson there because in many things in life almost will still get you the benefit of the doubt. Not this.

[Balloon guy 158]

Lois,I kind of know what you mean about not being able to succeed in poker while remaining a Christain. I do not have it in me to take advantage of other's weaknesses, or to feel comfortable taking their money. So I decided not to persue cash games except at really low levels. Also I am very big on having my wife okay with what I spend my money on, even though at times it makes look whipped. I love sleeping in a friendly bed.You know that God's grace is sufficient for you. He's not looking for your performance. I see alot of my own past in what your saying. I was very critical of myself regarding my walk, thought I should be much holier than I was. This translated into my looking down at others who really had luke warm walks imo. I even had an arguement with a buddy that we should be able to lead a life that is sin free. Then I went through my own wilderness experience, trouble with kids trouble with marriage, trouble with church, found myself not respecting myself etc. I can't say what helped me, maybe just being tired of being tired. But now I am very comfortable relying on God and less on me. I am firmly convinced that if God picked me to do great things, He will be disappointed. And over all, my works are as filthy rags. Still along way for me to go to reach a level of walk that I am comfortable with, like maybe reading the Bible once a day? a week? But the wilderness ends, and you find that it's not as deep as you thought. In fact it is really nothing more than a sand box in God's backyard. And God isn't upset that we doubted or stumbled, if He would be than why would he have accepted Peter back, or Paul in the first place.1John3:20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things

[Southern Buddhist 1]

Maybe, although I see it as more a questioning of me vs. a questioning of the faith itself. I am reminded quite a bit of Paul and King Agrippa, where Paul is teaching him, and the king says,"Almost thou hast persuaded me." It says alot, in that he was right there, but for whatever reason just couldn't bring himself to obey, the bible never says why. Almost is a valuable lesson there because in many things in life almost will still get you the benefit of the doubt. Not this.

Yes, I was thinking of it not in terms of questioning whether the faith was right or wrong, but questioning what it demands of you.