Public School, Ethics, And Teachers

[hblask 1]

I have a question about a situation that came up in my son's 6th grade class. I know this is probably not the best forum for this sort of thing, but I'm curious about any new way of thinking about this:The class was assigned to do a brochure on Internet safety, and was given a list of websites that would be good references. The teacher also warned the class that they should not plagiarize the websites, but didn't explain what that meant. This assignment will probably be between 10% and 20% of the final grade for the class.When the papers came back, 1/3 of the class was given a zero for plagiarism, despite including references in their paper, and despite not copying any material word for word.QUESTION 1: Is this fair? Is it plagiarism? QUESTION 2: What should the teacher do about it? QUESTION 3: Is there such a thing as "unintentional plagiarism with references"?Here's what happened: some parents complained to the teacher and the principle, and the teacher agreed that the students would get a score of whatever they would've if it hadn't been "plagiarized" minus 20 points. They could then make up 10 of those points by writing another report on plagiarism. QUESTION 4: Is this a fair compromise?QUESTION 5: Is it worth pursuing this any further?

[HubDub04 0]

As the teacher to play HU for grades?

[El Guapo 8]

First, the fact that the teacher did not explain plagerism to 10 and 11 years olds make the rest of what I am going to say Void, but I will because that obviously did not happen here.1. This one depends, using quotes, discussing said quotes and citing references is not palgerism, rewording a whole paragraph from a source is, regardless of whether it was cited or not.2. The teacher should explain plagerism, assuming she/he fully understands it and re-assign a new project to everyone.3. There can be, when you read things and get idea from them and write your thoughts, a lot of times their is a fine line of whether or not you just copied what was said and changed a couple words/phrases.4. NO5. Yes

[SBriand 4]

Don't take offense to this as it is not a personal type question, but something I think is important to the matter at hand.Who said she didn't explain it? All the kids, your kid, a few kids? I am back in school and had an issue similar about a project that was due and the teacher did explain it in detail but when the day came to give the presentations over 75% of the class missed the one thing she said and all got zero's because of it. Some others and myself all heard her say it but the others didn't. And this class has people from the ages of 18-55 and the 55 yr old was one who got a zero for not hearing the instructions. So it is feasible in my mind that a group of 6th graders could miss her simply telling them not to copy things word for word. On another note, when I was in 6th grade I was flunked out of a class for turning in a large report on motorcycles. She gave me a zero and flunked me because she said I plagiarized but I did no such thing. I had a tutor help me as I was having difficulty so my writing improved compared to earlier papers so she assumed I copied it all. She got fired and I got a passing grade. If she truly is at fault here, take it all the way till you yourself and your child are happy.

[donk4life 34]

Don't take offense to this as it is not a personal type question, but something I think is important to the matter at hand.Who said she didn't explain it? All the kids, your kid, a few kids? I am back in school and had an issue similar about a project that was due and the teacher did explain it in detail but when the day came to give the presentations over 75% of the class missed the one thing she said and all got zero's because of it. Some others and myself all heard her say it but the others didn't. And this class has people from the ages of 18-55 and the 55 yr old was one who got a zero for not hearing the instructions. So it is feasible in my mind that a group of 6th graders could miss her simply telling them not to copy things word for word. On another note, when I was in 6th grade I was flunked out of a class for turning in a large report on motorcycles. She gave me a zero and flunked me because she said I plagiarized but I did no such thing. I had a tutor help me as I was having difficulty so my writing improved compared to earlier papers so she assumed I copied it all. She got fired and I got a passing grade. If she truly is at fault here, take it all the way till you yourself and your child are happy.

But there is a hugeee difference between sixth graders and college students..If the teacher said to the 6th graders "Do not plagiarize", and that's all she said on the matter, some of the kids may not understand what that word means...

[hblask 1]

Don't take offense to this as it is not a personal type question, but something I think is important to the matter at hand.Who said she didn't explain it? All the kids, your kid, a few kids? I am back in school and had an issue similar about a project that was due and the teacher did explain it in detail but when the day came to give the presentations over 75% of the class missed the one thing she said and all got zero's because of it. Some others and myself all heard her say it but the others didn't. And this class has people from the ages of 18-55 and the 55 yr old was one who got a zero for not hearing the instructions. So it is feasible in my mind that a group of 6th graders could miss her simply telling them not to copy things word for word. On another note, when I was in 6th grade I was flunked out of a class for turning in a large report on motorcycles. She gave me a zero and flunked me because she said I plagiarized but I did no such thing. I had a tutor help me as I was having difficulty so my writing improved compared to earlier papers so she assumed I copied it all. She got fired and I got a passing grade. If she truly is at fault here, take it all the way till you yourself and your child are happy.

I guess I trusted my kid on this, he's an A student. That's not to say he never misses instructions, because, like anyone, he can be distracted, but for 1/3 of the class to just have no idea what she was talking about is a pretty high percentage. The other parents who were affected said basically the same thing -- that their child tried but didn't understand what is and isn't against the rules. I think the only way to explain plagiarism is to to give lots of examples: "this one is, this one isn't, these are the gray areas." Especially to 6th graders.I'll give more of my thoughts on this after I get a few more responses, because I don't want to influence the discussion too much.

[donk4life 34]

I guess I trusted my kid on this, he's an A student. That's not to say he never misses instructions, because, like anyone, he can be distracted, but for 1/3 of the class to just have no idea what she was talking about is a pretty high percentage. The other parents who were affected said basically the same thing -- that their child tried but didn't understand what is and isn't against the rules. I think the only way to explain plagiarism is to to give lots of examples: "this one is, this one isn't, these are the gray areas." Especially to 6th graders.I'll give more of my thoughts on this after I get a few more responses, because I don't want to influence the discussion too much.

That's a pretty lousy teacher IMO....She should have realized that if 1/3rd of the class plagiarized, she didn't do a very good job of explaining.. and perhaps assign another essay on plagiarism to help the kids grasp the concept of it more..To fail those kids is ridiculous on her part..

[SBriand 4]

But there is a hugeee difference between sixth graders and college students..If the teacher said to the 6th graders "Do not plagiarize", and that's all she said on the matter, some of the kids may not understand what that word means...

True, but all I am getting at is if she just said plagiarize or did she say it and explain it and 1/3 of the class missed it or still didn't understand.Why did no student raise their hand and ask if she didn't explain it? Still her responsibility as a teacher to explain it, for sure, but I would have to think one kid in the class would have asked.Just looking at it from different angles.

[Suited_Up 2]

6th Graders shouldn't be Citing Sources!!I mean, putting things into your own words, That's one thing..... but to ask a 6th grader to do a college style paper is ridiculous.

[El Guapo 8]

6th Graders shouldn't be Citing Sources!!I mean, putting things into your own words, That's one thing..... but to ask a 6th grader to do a college style paper is ridiculous.

It was a brochure, and I don't think she was asking for a bibliograph and foot notes.

[sandwedge 30]

6th Graders shouldn't be Citing Sources!!I mean, putting things into your own words, That's one thing..... but to ask a 6th grader to do a college style paper is ridiculous

[Buckeye Hughes 0]

6th Graders shouldn't be Citing Sources!!I mean, putting things into your own words, That's one thing..... but to ask a 6th grader to do a college style paper is ridiculous

Beat me to it...nh

[showstopper24 0]

QUESTION 3: Is there such a thing as "unintentional plagiarism with references"?

I don't know what you mean by "unintentional plagiarism with referecnes" but I do know that there is a such thing as unitentional plagiarism. Even if you don't know that you are writing somebody elses work, it is unfairly still considered cheating.

[coesillian 0]

a zero for plagiarism is fair.If you paraphrase and cite sources it is not plagiarism.

[sandwedge 30]

I think the teacher dropped the ball on this one. I doubt that 1/3 of the class are cheaters. They simply didn't understand what her concept of plagiarism is. They went to the sites, absorbed information, and then made their pamphlets. I'm not sure what's wrong with that. Had I been given the assignment, I probably would have been in the same shoes.Let's say that they are taking a test in History class, and are given an essay question. Should they be penalized for regurgitating the information that they were presented in the textbook? Certainly not, since this is what 6th graders do.As far as going after the teacher's head, I think more details are needed. Is she a good teacher who just got this one wrong? If so, I think we'd be setting a bad example to the kids to make a huge deal about this. Rather than teaching kids that "when someone makes us mad, we'll get them!", this could be a good life lesson that none of us are perfect, and yes teachers can make mistakes.I was a teacher for 14 years, and while I got it right most of the time, I indeed made mistakes. In those cases, I was much more willing to listen to students and parents who treated me with the same respect that I treated them.

[drcossack 0]

a zero for plagiarism is fair.If you paraphrase and cite sources it is not plagiarism.

Keep in mind this is a 6th grade class.There's a 99.9% chance they don't know what plagiarism is.Anyway.1) No. No.2) Stop being a fucking moron and explain things better - they're 12 year olds, not college students. Did she bother to compare the way everything was written with the website(s), or was she just being a bitch about it?3) Huh?4 and 5) Hell no; Fuck yes.

[speedz99 145]

QUESTION 1: Is this fair? Is it plagiarism?

No, it's not fair at all. The teacher is an idiot.Whether or not it's plagiarism would have to be looked at on a case by case basis. If it's not copied word for word and there are cited sources then I seriously doubt it (especially since it's 6th grade).

QUESTION 2: What should the teacher do about it?

Go back to school and get a degree that will allow them to teach at a college level. He/she should not be teaching 6th grade and expecting kids to understand exactly what constitutes plagiarism without a full explanation.

QUESTION 3: Is there such a thing as "unintentional plagiarism with references"?

Not officially, no.

Here's what happened: some parents complained to the teacher and the principle, and the teacher agreed that the students would get a score of whatever they would've if it hadn't been "plagiarized" minus 20 points. They could then make up 10 of those points by writing another report on plagiarism. QUESTION 4: Is this a fair compromise?

No. They should get full credit if they write the other report.

QUESTION 5: Is it worth pursuing this any further?

Only if it's the difference between your kid getting an A and a B for the semester (or however they do it at his school). And, frankly, even that isn't a very big deal as long as it wouldn't bother the kid. It's probably best to leave it alone...you don't want this moronic teacher to have it in for your kid.

[Balloon guy 158]

Teachers are overpaid, so they are getting lazy.But you don't want your kid to think that he can complain when life isn't fair.Tell him he'll have to retake 6th grade.Then when he is in high school he will have a car before anyone else and will get all the chicks.Your welcome

[JoeyJoJo 18]

your is only to be misused when you are trying to misuse it.

Your welcome

Was that one of those times?p.s. nice halibut.

[Balloon guy 158]

Was that one of those times?

Yes

p.s. nice halibut.

Thanks

[keith crime 8]

grades don't matter at all until 9th grade let it go

[LongLiveYorke 38]

First of all, it sounds like a silly assignment to begin with. Shouldn't kids be learning real things? They can figure out the Internet on their own. Also, you shouldn't be overly concerned with the grade. I mean, it's important for a kid, even at a early age (though 6th grade is hardly early) to understand that good grades are important and they should put their fullest effort into school. But this is seemingly one silly assignment for one silly teacher, so don't kill yourself over it.

QUESTION 1: Is this fair? Is it plagiarism?

Well, not to be a stickler, but technically this is two questions. Is it fair? I don't think that it is. A kid shouldn't totally fail a paper for committing a crime that he most likely didn't fully understand. The point of the exercise should be to teach the kids the different forms of plagiarism, and I don't think outright failing some students is the right way to do so. Is it plagiarism? I don't know, but it certainly could be. It sounds though that if they didn't directly quote the websites and they mentioned the sites themselves that it isn't plagiarism.

QUESTION 2: What should the teacher do about it?

The teacher should make them go back and correct their papers, being sure to avoid any possible plagiarism and to properly cite all their sources. This way it serves as a lesson so they, oh, I don' t know, actually learn something. Their papers should then be fairly regraded.

QUESTION 3: Is there such a thing as "unintentional plagiarism with references"?

Yes, though I'm not sure it applies to 6th grade papers. Certainly in the real world there is and it's a serious thing. For grade school/junior high students, if they're not cutting and pasting off the Internet and they're giving some mention of the source, then it seems kosher to me.

QUESTION 4: Is this a fair compromise?

Meh. It's decent. Again, I'd rather they get the chance to fix their papers so they can see how it should be done. But if they're given the chance to not get a 0, then that's better than nothing.

QUESTION 5: Is it worth pursuing this any further?

Probably not. Just explain to your son the situation, the meaning of plagiarism, and be sure he understands the different forms that it can take. If he gets it, don't bother too much about the grade or getting the teacher in trouble. Yes, grade school teachers often suck. I don't know if there's too much you can do about it and if it would be worth the bother for you to do much more. If your child's smart, then he'll survive this little incident and be successful in school in spite of it.

[strategy 4]

re: opI think we can all agree that the teacher was being a little ridiculous. The coordinator for one of my courses last semester actually made a mandatory assignment out of a plagiarism quiz to make sure that everyone knew what not to do. It's a pretty fine line in some areas... I'm totally in favor of quizzing and then throwing the book over any violations.piper, ks school board overrules teacher, urges leniency on plagiarismThey're called the piper pirates. The next time my high school's football team played a home game against theirs, someone in the crowd had a sign that said "plagiarize the pirates"

[SpiderGuard 0]

Teachers are overpaid, so they are getting lazy.But you don't want your kid to think that he can complain when life isn't fair.

Huge +1 to the second half of this - +1 with a "but" on the first. Good teachers are insanely underpaid. Unfortunately most teachers aren't good at what they do, so yes - they're WAY overpaid.

Tell him he'll have to retake 6th grade.Then when he is in high school he will have a car before anyone else and will get all the chicks.Your welcome

Well played sir.

[hblask 1]

Thanks for all the responses, I've asked around everywhere over this, and everyone agrees the original grading was horrible.The question now is whether to pursue this any further. It seems it's a tradeoff between letting a (now) minor injustice go vs putting a target on my son's back over a grade that, in the grand scheme of life, means little. There are a couple of reasons why I think it *might* be worth pursuing:1) I am sick of public schools and their arbitrary behavior toward students, and one of the reason they can get away with it is because parents get tired of "fighting the system". I'm not sure I want to be one of the enablers.2) There is a lesson to my son about assertiveness and how to pursue a resolution. He tends to go along with everything, and maybe this is a good time to show that it's not always a bad idea to make a fuss.And I'm still not sure how there can be "unintentional plagiarism". I'm guessing that for any essay on any major common subject you can write that I could find 5 similar essays already on the internet. Plagiarism has connotations of unethical behavior, so if you are doing your best to be honest and original, how can it be unethical?