My Wsop Main Event Bust Out Hand

[ObeyTheDog 0]

People never make typos.

I would have went with "It was a joke" like most people do. Admitting mistakes is a sign of weakness. I raise.

[Tiltinagain 973]

I would have went with "It was a joke" like most people do. Admitting mistakes is a sign of weakness. I raise.

LOL well played.This is definitely POTY. Talk about strat all you want but the best hand discussions I've read have been in general...there I said it. ObeyTheDog, your posts were some of the most thought provoking, well described posts I've seen on FCP. Thanks for your contribution to the thread and I look forward to reading more from you in the future.PMJ, Thanks for starting the thread and GL next year!

[chgocubs99 0]

When I play in big tournies, if I know the nitty player considers me to be a thoughtful player, it loosens up what I'll push with since I know he knows that I know he has to have a big hand to raise, so that means I must have a really big hand to come back over the top.

Didn't read the whole thread, in response to this:1) Many many people can speak better on this than me, but in a huge buy in event with a small field this is probably one level too little of thought. ie He knows all of that, so you may want to tighten your range. Unless it usually goes a level beyond that...2) If this guy is the standard unknown, as prtyp said above, he may not be anywhere near this line of thought. It may be closer to, "I'll shove with AQ cuz he's been tight, and if he's raising he has a hand" or "I'll shove with my draw because he's been tight, and he'll usually fold, and if he calls I can still win" ie HOH standard stuff.Did results get posted yet?

[barrec 0]

i absolutely love this discussion. it brings about situations nearly all of us can apply to our appropriate level...play money or otherwise. seriously, i heart this thread. started reading at 10:30pm pst with 10 pages total, finished with 14 pages total at 12:15am (thanks to tv, poker, booze, and dislexai).

[SilentButDeadly3 0]

Why do you and Hoosier think that QQ is a possibility? Five queens in the deck?

Beat me to it.Still <3 you Hoosier.

[HoosierAlum 0]

Beat me to it.Still <3 you Hoosier.

Well I never said QQ was a possibility(obv)? If I did it was obviously intentional and maybe one day I will be able to learn how many cards are in the deck and then after that maybe figure out how many "colored" and "numbered" cards exist.

[NoSup4U 0]

Dont even know where i said qq was a possibility? If I did it was obviously intentional and maybe one day I will be able to learn how many cards are in the deck and then after that maybe figure out how many "colored" and "numbered" cards exist.

PM me for coaching kthx.Mark

[psujohn 0]

The "does PMJs image make the guys range tighter or looser" is a good question and I'd have to go with looser if he noticed the deliberation on the AA hand but it's always hard to tell how much the villain is noticing.Another interesting question that's been touched upon is the utility of 100K vs 300K at this point in the tourney. In other words even if it's a coinflip we may be best off folding.Mostly I'm left wondering why I ever c/r in a NL game. Specially in a situation like this:- villain has nothing and folds - we potentially lose the value of him catching a piece or continuing to fire- villain calls which gives us no info - he may have a draw or may have a monster - we have tough turn/river decisions in a now huge pot- villain pushes and puts us to a tough decision right here - he may have a draw or may have a better or worse made handNothing that villain can do after our c/r makes me happy here.

[blakheart 3]

Thanks for posting the turn card. I think that looks like a safe turn card. So if it went check/call more chips are going in on the turn. You might not go bust, But you still would lose a fair amount if chips.I am intrigued by Obey's reasoning, but I think I still would have played it the same way as PMJ. Check/call on the flop leaves you with no information about villian's hand, and you need information. This is just a tough spot where you have to try to protect a vulnerable hand on a draw heavy board.

[Dratj 0]

AJ,TT,QQ,KK,88,KJ,J8,J10,QK,Q10,910,78

There it is. Better get some tutelage from NoSup4u or PrtyPSux.

[HoosierAlum 0]

There it is. Better get some tutelage from NoSup4u or PrtyPSux.

reread that post and the quote above that listing of hands. (I was talking about a different hand)better learn some reading comprehension skills.

[Dratj 0]

reread that post and the quote above that listing of hands.better learn some reading comprehension skills.

Ok, I'll admit that I'm wrong. You're right, maybe someday I'll learn how to read. Seriously though, obviously my last post was a joke, why are you so uptight man? You're probably usually cool but sometimes you've got something up your butt. Guys like JC and Mark are always cool. You got all uptight and sh it when I asked you why you don't play live in a PM a while back when neteller was going down. JC's even cool enough to talk to me on Aim once when he doesn't even know who I am.

[HoosierAlum 0]

You got all uptight and sh it when I asked you why you don't play live in a PM a while back when neteller was going down.

I told you it was personal as to why I didn't want to travel the poker circuit. Sorry if you view not divulging personal information to a random guy on a poker forum as being 'uptight'. As for the rest of your post, lol.

[socalpoker_j 1]

I told you it was personal as to why I didn't want to travel the poker circuit. Sorry if you view not divulging personal information to a random guy on a poker forum as being 'uptight'. As for the rest of your post, lol.

info nit. obv. Dratj,You're a little out of line here bud. In all my AIM conversations with Jon, he has never acted like he was too good to answer any questions (poker related, even semi-personal stuff) or shoot the proverbial breeze about nearly any topic, or take my money in flips . It seems like you're the one with something up your butt when you keep after the guy for an obvious mistake that he admitted. Cliffnotes: Hoosier is a valuable poster and even cooler guy. Dratj, not so much.

[zimmer4141 0]

Thanks for posting the turn card. I think that looks like a safe turn card. So if it went check/call more chips are going in on the turn. You might not go bust, But you still would lose a fair amount if chips.I am intrigued by Obey's reasoning, but I think I still would have played it the same way as PMJ. Check/call on the flop leaves you with no information about villian's hand, and you need information. This is just a tough spot where you have to try to protect a vulnerable hand on a draw heavy board.

So what information do we gain by check/raising and having him shove?

[Shizzmoney 0]

I play a little differently than most folks here......I know everyone is suggesting to check-raise or fire out on the flop to "find out where they are at.", but you can do this is other ways. I dislike the check-raise flop line here, mostly because it tips off your hand vs an aggressive player who might have air, and I would "walk the dog" here if he is an total aggrodonk. From what I read from your view of him, he plays his big hands and some draws aggressively. I like to keep my pots small vs these players and see what develops on the turn or river and see how good of a spot I can get the money in, as well as the fact I find these players easy to read and can potentially outplay them on prospective streets (either via big bluff or big laydown) if they view me as a screwd and tight player. Plus I only like to play big pots with a very big hand (per John Juanda's advice) and three Queens with a 9 kicker is NOT that big of a hand.There are alot of flop aggrodonks out there who love to shove flops with a myriad of draws. He could be one of them.Many, however, do not have the balls to shove on the turn except without a hand. The turn is what separates the men and boys in NLHE. The turn is the most important street in NLHE because it is truely where you find out where you are at because most villians simply don't play that many pots deep and get confused.By check-raising the flop, I actually lose and give information because of this. Not only that, a hand like 1010 would be absolutely correct to shove on me for a few reasons: 1) because now they know I probably have a Queen and if its a big Queen like AQ or KQ, the majority of the time villians view most arn't good enough to lay down that type of hand; and 2) they have to actually "protect" their hand vs a bigger full house, and getting the money in right there allows them to make the correct play. If they SC and if their villian comes out firing big on scary turns (A, K, J) that involved big cards, now they are kicking themselves that they didn't fastplay the idiot end of the full house as they make a crying call.Is this villian capable of firing a big bet on the turn with just a straight/flush draws with one to come, after a tight player (who you believe views you as tight) comes out firing at him? I honestly doubt it. If he raises a non scary turn, then you have to decide whether or not he is willing to do this with air or if he has you beat. Honestly, with this opponent from what you have said, I doubt he'll shove with a flush/straight draw here if you fire out on the turn. I'd check-call flop and fire a 1/3rd to 1/2 bet on all turns. This is a freezer bet, similiar to ones you see on the river. Plus, if the guy has a better Queen and a non big card club comes on the turn, he might put you on a flush draw with your SC of the flop bet. If the A, K, or J doesn't show up on the turn or river but the flush is out there.....you MIGHT be able to bluff him off a better Queen by savage shoving, unless he is a pay off wizard and can't lay down a hand like KQ/QJ no matter what. But since people like to raise with the big cards, I'd say that is definitely in his line. If you fire out at the turn that has a A, K, or J on it and he just smooth calls (especially quickly)............BIG time sign he has a boat and you need to abort mission.Honestly, my main bet would be.........I think he has QJ, absolutely 95% sure. It's a good button hand, and people love the big cards. The "insta-shove" motion is usually a sign of REAL strength, and in the ME at the WSOP, from what I have heard about this player, I honestly think this guy isn't that crazy enough to jam with just a draw or a weaker Queen with all the chips he has as well as vs you, heads up.

[mbreon 0]

Ok, I'll admit that I'm wrong. You're right, maybe someday I'll learn how to read. Seriously though, obviously my last post was a joke, why are you so uptight man? You're probably usually cool but sometimes you've got something up your butt. Guys like JC and Mark are always cool. You got all uptight and sh it when I asked you why you don't play live in a PM a while back when neteller was going down. JC's even cool enough to talk to me on Aim once when he doesn't even know who I am.

Hoos is just uptight because he missed out on the juiciest poker games that I used to play in back at IU....Hoos is a good kid, Dratj. Don't take things so personally. Obv I found this thread waaaay too late and am still reading through it, but I really like ObeytheDog's analysis of the hand from what I have read so far.

[ilovejulie 0]

you're calling my existence into question.

LOL. A gmanshade Atheist. I love it!

[JayHizzoe 0]

So WTF did the villian have?

[Big Jono 0]

So WTF did the villian have?

[Shizzmoney 0]

Ship QJ, one time!

[socalpoker_j 1]

Jono,I believe PM said QhJh

[PMJackson21 0]

TT was never a possibility w/ this player, and for very few players overall. Someone would either have to be playing mind blowingly scared poker, or they would have to have intimate knowledge of my game. Even then, I'm just as likely to have a hand I'm insta folding here as I am having QX, so to overshove vs another deep stack who is nitty with the 2nd nuts is just bad.His button raise = any two cards...This seems to be a point missed by some. If he raised, I folded, and he turned over a Chris Sabo rookie card and the noose from Clue, I wouldn't be surprised.TGIF, I hate work.

[Big Jono 0]

Jono,I believe PM said QhJh

Oh. cool. sorry. thanks. skipped a couple of pages

[JayHizzoe 0]

Jono,I believe PM said QhJh

Finally, I can sleep at night, I must have missed it.