Poker Reality Check Time

[nutzbuster 7]

First of all, I sincerely hope everyone who plays for a living is doing well.My poker aspirations and efforts for the past few years have been to get good enough to one day cast off the chains of corporate America and fully take on the poker plunge. But I am now less inclined to do so than I was for several reasons. It took some honest soul searching but I'm thinking more now that I may not do it full time after all.One reason came after an honest assessment of my current level of ability. While I know I am far from sucking and at times play very well, I have to admit that I still am a long ways from being consistently good enough to make it playing full time. I know my game would improve greatly if I had more than just a few hours a week to play, but as it stands now I really don't think I could make it work.Another thing I struggle with (and I'm sure I'm not alone) is the emotional side of this game, as many who know me can testify to, lol. I'm normally a pretty decent happy go lucky sort of guy, and I don't get down too often when playing, but it happens enough to give me some pause as to whether or not I'll have the fortitude to do this full time and not lose my mind!Time will tell i guess, and I have not made a final decision yet, but for those of you who are there now perhaps you would like to share some insights.I am curious if some of the full time players might want to share their honest impressions of their own current state of playing full time for a living, the good, the bad and the ugly.Are there those of you with regrets? If so why and what were/are the fall outs and what would you have done differently?Same for those who are kicking butt and taking names. What are the best things about it and are you truly happy? And what advice for those on their way? What would you do over if you had a chance to go back?I know a lot is written about this throughout the poker world, just wondering if any FCP folks would care to comment.Thanks in advance. Best to everyone.edit: NO, this is not another "I Quit" thread, lol. I love playing and look forward to playing at minimum on a part time level once I leave my current career. I just thought it would be fun for me and everyone else to hear stories from those who are already there.

[Balloon guy 158]

I know that by baller/pro/good player/ etc you meant meBut I'll let some other people put in their $.02 before I end the thread with all that needs to be said.Mark

[biggswolll 0]

what are your plans if you do go pro....in that i mean, do you plan on playing live, online, or both? Tournies or cash games....etc?

[Sheiky 0]

I was speaking to someone at another forum who left uni and became a full time poker player, it's been a year and he's loving it so far.

[nutzbuster 7]

what are your plans if you do go pro....in that i mean, do you plan on playing live, online, or both? Tournies or cash games....etc?

Well, I am mostly planning on playing live, and just enough to supplement a pretty decent high 5 figure pension, but the main goal is to only play poker. I know, Home Depot needs greeters, but the Casino is more my speed. I am now officially less than 2 years from making this jump, and financially I am in a great spot.But I also know there has to be things that have happened to folks that I (and I dare say many others) haven't considered or thought about.Sharing is caring.

[biggswolll 0]

well im not much of a pro, nor do i claim to be, but i have played for a living before and i was not in any way in as good of a spot as you as far as financially. I think one of the most important things to remember when you play full time is to remember to live life. By that i mean poker can become very consuming and you have to keep in mind theres more to life than just playing every day. Set a schedule, stick to it, and enjoy yourself. Not sure if you'll even take this into consideration, but from what ive learned it will help keep you on top of your game, and hopefully happy in your decision.P.S. online is obv rigged so good decision to play live

[Abbaddabba 0]

8 months in - no down sides for me.only complaint is that i dont feel compelled to play/work enough without a structure to the dayi'd probably just get a regular job if i had to play live. the scene is degen, the earn rates are lower, and the consistency in income is nowhere to be found. it's only a worthwhile option if you play really big or arent good enough to win online.

[GWCGWC 83]

Supplementing a high 5 figure pension would make this a much more viable option for any decent player. It's not that hard to break even in poker, it's much more difficult to win consistently. I can't imagine trying to grind out my monthly nut playing poker full time without a ridiculously large BR.

[armen13 0]

TP/MM?????????The TP is easy. It's the MM that's difficult.

[PMJackson21 0]

I've never thought the lifestyle fit me, so I have never 'gone pro'. I think it's all a matter of one's personality, and how the up and downs of playing a game like poker will affect you. Maybe I'm just a life nit, but I've always felt that if I ever played poker strictly as a profession, then any fun I find in the game still (it varies, depending on how many races I'm winning) would be gone. I really think people with a 'gambler' mentality are more suited to play poker as a profession; I consider myself more of an 'educated guess' guy. Not to say that I don't like to gamble, but I guess I have limits.If I somehow got lucky and won a big tournament, I guess I would 'go pro', but that would just mean I wouldn't work a day job anymore, play more live tournaments, and play a _lot_ more golf. The day to day grind of being a cash game player, or the similar downsides to travelling the tournament circuit, are not that attractive to me. I have quite a few friends who do just that, and I have a ton of respect for them for being able to do so, but I don't think it is the lifestyle for most people. I have to admit however, that if the poker boom had hit when I was 18-19, I probably would have dove right in and not cared (or known better) to look back. Obviously, the stage that you are at in your life matters a lot when you make a decision like that. Now, I would prefer to be more like Dan Harrington. He plays a handful of tournaments a year, and has a life outside of poker.I think this is a very good post by Nutzbuster, and hope that a lot of the younger posters on here that only see the upside of poker, take the same sort of self assessment of themselves before diving into a career as a poker player.GLGL Nutz on whatever you decide.

[silkyjonson 1]

Its much harder to accomplish being a live cash game pro. Online your learning curve is much steeper and individual hands can be shaken off easier when you have 3 games going, also related is the boredom factor which is much more a presence live seeing as you are there to play poker and are getting dealt way less hands whereas online if you are multi tabling you can avoid. Also in order to be making good money live you need to be putting in tons of hours or be playing at a high enough level to beat big games. Basically its pretty hard to be a live pro and in order to be a pro on any level you need to either be able to play a ton of hours and refine your game, if you can't do that its going to be hard to get to a level that is going to sustain you as a pro.I have been playing for a living for the last 4 months basically by accident, I always wanted to give it a run after I graduated and see how far I can get before I get a "real job" but I never actually set out to do it. Well do to some circumstances I have done exactly that and it is going well so far but you have to be extremely disciplined and self motivated to succeed and I think many people don't realize the amount of discipline and self inflection that it takes to keep your head above water and not go busto in the long run. There are so many difficult decisions to make for example - what game to play PLO, NL, HE, Stud etc, what stakes, to play cash or tournies, to play MTT or sit n go's to play live or online,when to play that is optimal, when to quit for the night and all these decisions are even before you play one hand so needless to say you are always making tough choices and always dancing with the devil in some form or another every day. If you are not being scientific and being brutally honest with yourself then you will have a hard time being successful in the long run or continuing to grow as a player.Bottom line is its not all its cracked up to be and takes a ton of work to get to a high level, there are some guys on this forum that are there or very near to a level that is high enough to succeed in poker in the long run and be comfortable, I am not there but I am doing my best to learn from my mistakes and see how far I can get.So Nutz I know you love the game but do you think you want to risk the life you have right now to chase poker and the roller coasters involved?

[Naked_Cowboy 0]

Even at a young age (I'm only 24), I have to weigh the appeal of playing for a living against what i'd be giving up. I've weighed this over and over in my head and here's how it breaks down.There are plenty of things in "poker's" favor:-I have no doubt whatsoever that I could grind out a solid living at the middle stakes (2/5 - 10/20 NL). After 2 years, my winrate at 2/5 and 5/10 NLHE / PLO is just over $100/hr for live play, and even higher if I include the shot I took at 10/20 while I was in vegas in April. While I'm far from "great", the potential for an increase in short term income is definitely there-I think playing poker is an absolute blast. -Poker very much feeds my competitive drive, my intellect, and my natural love of "figuring people out". However, on the flip-side:I'm an accountant for an awesome financial services firm. This means awesome benefits, steady healthy income, and gives my wife the freedom to do a job that is less consistent, but something she loves. Poker doesn't match my 401k contributions or give my family cheap insurance. At work, I never have to worry if i'm going to be wedged between two huge smelly guys tomorrow.In the end, providing a consistent, secure living for my wife and (in the not too distant future) kids is more important to me than the allure of possible short term monetary gains and doing what I think is more "fun" every day. I think putting your family before your personal desires is a huge part of what makes a real man, not money, fame, or achievements. Because I have this attitude, my wife is more than happy to let me make the hour drive every few weeks to play for a day, play online for fun, and take shots at major tournaments every now and again. So yeah, I'm a life nit. That doesn't really carry over to the felt though, as more than a few can attest

[checkymcfold 0]

i've been full time for about 17 months now, and was about 90% full time for 2 yrs before that while i was (almost) finishing grad school. it's probably also worth saying that i'm entirely a cash game player, and only play tourneys for fun or when i'm too tired to really focus for a full on session and would rather lose 26 bucks on ftp than i would lose a few buyins at a cash table.the odd thing is that i went totally busto about the time i started playing full time, although this was more due to the fact that i had assumed i would continue to run like god like i did in school forever, and spending money like it was going out of style, than it was due to me being a losing player for a while. i definitely didn't play as well during that period as i had for the few years before, but i still won, just not enough to sustain the lifestyle i was trying to lead. obviously, that lead to me going broke. it was then that i started working with steve7stud, and he did a lot to help me get more responsible about my approach to the game and how it related to my life. since, there have been a couple rough patches, one of which lead me to almost go busto again, but i was able to fight through it and get back on my feet.i think that it's a lot harder to play professionally than most people think. it's not so much that a lot of winning players lack the talent to make enough to survive, but rather that they don't know how to deal properly with the things that crop up along the way. i know i didn't, at least in the beginning, and it cost me lots and lots of money. after i went broke, i made the decision to live frugally and off of credit cards so that i could rebuild my bankroll and start sustaining myself again while retaining the schedule that i liked so much, but in retrospect, i regret that decision a bit. although i'm almost out of debt now, it's extremely difficult to pull yourself out of the low limits when you need to triple your bankroll every month just to pay your credit card bills, rent, and utilities. i wish that i had just sucked it up, gotten a job, and paid things off that way--it would have been a LOT easier than doing things the way i did.beyond that, i don't know that i have too many regrets. personally, i've never dealt well with authority or strict schedules, and poker allows me to set the hours i want and gives me the freedom to travel to see family, my canadian girlfriend, and just to see the world in general as i please. since i'm pretty much wrought with wanderlust most of the time, the lifestyle is pretty attractive to me for the most part. however, there have been lots of bumps along the way. as i'm sure most people who've given it a go would say, there were definitely relationship problems that grew out of my lifestyle of staying up till 4am, crawling into bed with my girlfriend, and having her wake up 2 hrs later for work. and when she'd get home from work, i'd just be getting down to an evening session and we wouldn't be able to spend much time together while we were in the same country. dealing with that required that both of us make concessions, and fortunately, i'm with someone reasonable and supportive enough to make them. i started trying to keep normal-ish hours and play games that were good in the morning (non-HE games, fyi ), and she was able to understand that when i do play an evening session every now and again, she needed to respect that i was indeed working and not bother me or lay a guilt trip on me after i was finished. and i know i'm lucky to have someone who is able to adapt to that kind of thing.that said, i don't think i'll do this forever--at least i don't think that right now. i miss teaching, and although for the time being i satiate that with taking on poker students, i don't think that's ultimately going to quell my desire to teach, and i'll probably head back into academia at some point. i also don't think that my current lifestyle is one that would be healthy for raising a family, since the money isn't regular, and i could definitely go near-busto again at any time, so unless i'm, like, famously robusto in a few years when i start to think about a full-on family, i'll probably get at least a part time job to be more stable financially. i'm also not a big planner, though, so all that could change tomorrow.edit: oh, advice, lol.well, i think that there are probably certain types of people who would enjoy playing full time a lot more than others. i know that lots of people say what i did above--that i dislike authority and schedules, etc--but i do know that most people are better equipped to deal with them than me. if you can deal with them, a real job is definitely a safer bet. also, it's really tough to love poker when you're losing, and everyone loses at some point. it takes a little luck and a little stoicism to deal with the rough patches that are bound to arise. i think something like the lilholdem post on p5s is pretty indicative of a general trend among young players getting started at professional poker--he simply lacked the maturity to deal with a rough patch properly and acted like an ass. granted, that's to be expected to some degree. lord knows i whined when i ran bad. but i think that indicates that "pro poker" requires a pretty high level of maturity to really do as a career, though that's not to say that a 20 something with a lot of talent shouldn't give it a go if s/he really wants to.

[GabeTheKid 0]

I'm 19 and have been playing pro for about 4 months. Recently, I've taken the label 'Pro' out because I find it puts extra weight on my shoulders. Now, I see myself as a semi-pro, although I don't have another job and don't go to school. There are some downsides to being a pro that you don't realize until you get to that level. Playing profesionally does take some fun out of the game, unless you have motivation. How do you get motivation? by setting goals and buying cool stuff to show for the money you're winning. I recently set a challenge for myself (check the 'my new challenge' thread if you're interested) and that just gave me a boost in my motivation to play. The money is great and if/when I can learn to simply not care about the fluctuations, i'll learn to enjoy playing pro much more. I am already pretty good at not caring if i'm down 1.5k in a day which i'm proud of, because a month ago i could not of said that.I think it's really important to balance your life if you play pro and do things outside of poker or you'll lose your mind. You can't be playing 60 hour weeks and getting pissed when you lose because frankly, that's just not healthy and wont get you happiness.I want to be happy and I think playing poker profesionally is for me, I just have to learn to view some things differently before I can fully say I love my job. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade this job for any job, but I can't say i'm fully happy right now. I have no doubt I will be able to in the near future, however.Gabe

[NoSup4U 0]

Making money in poker isn't the hardest part, its keeping it I think. Most people have big months and spend a lot, and have bad months, and get stressed because they are losing and spent a lot of the money they made. I don't think many people that are good at poker manage their money well, mostly because they are young and just haven't had a lot of expereience with it. I was running really well early this year and spent a lot over the summer, and promptly went on a downswing. Poker is just funny that way. I don't plan on doing anything other than poker. outside of investments, or charity work or whatever. But I never want to go back to the corporate world. I don't know if I have any specific advice for anyone. Being a pro is a lot more than just being good enough to make money at poker. There are so many more aspects to it. The weird hours, the need for you to be self motivated to work instead of just watch TV or surfing FCP like I'm doing now, the stress when you're losing, the necessity to manage your money like an accountant, etc. You have to be very good at all these things.Mark

[Czech Razor 0]

Making money in poker isn't the hardest part, its keeping it I think. Most people have big months and spend a lot, and have bad months, and get stressed because they are losing and spent a lot of the money they made.

QFT. Well said. It's pretty basic but often overlooked.

[pocket_change 0]

i think something like the lilholdem post on p5s is pretty indicative of a general trend among young players getting started at professional poker--he simply lacked the maturity to deal with a rough patch properly and acted like an ass. granted, that's to be expected to some degree.

Can you post a link? I'd like to read that. This is a good post. I'm in the same situation really but I think i have a lot of advantages. I live in the poker capital, I'm single with no kids and minimal responsibilities and I'm the sickest player since Stuey Ungar. Okay maybe I went overboard. But good post and nice replies, it's nice to see what you guys think and have experienced. I also find it very interesting to hear the different between live players and online players. I for one, could never fathom playing online for a living but I feel that I could do it successfully live. I'm pretty sure this is because I learned the game and becamse successful at the game playing live as opposed to online.

[checkymcfold 0]

Can you post a link? I'd like to read that. This is a good post. I'm in the same situation really but I think i have a lot of advantages. I live in the poker capital, I'm single with no kids and minimal responsibilities and I'm the sickest player since Stuey Ungar. Okay maybe I went overboard. But good post and nice replies, it's nice to see what you guys think and have experienced. I also find it very interesting to hear the different between live players and online players. I for one, could never fathom playing online for a living but I feel that I could do it successfully live. I'm pretty sure this is because I learned the game and becamse successful at the game playing live as opposed to online.

i'm not sure of the link, i think if you search "chad" in general here you'll probably find a link. it was about a month or two ago, maybe?

[loogie 115]

TP/MM?????????The TP is easy. It's the MM that's difficult.

Oh, now I get it.

[davezz5 0]

I'm 19 and have been playing pro for about 4 months. Recently, I've taken the label 'Pro' out because I find it puts extra weight on my shoulders. Now, I see myself as a semi-pro, although I don't have another job and don't go to school. There are some downsides to being a pro that you don't realize until you get to that level. Playing profesionally does take some fun out of the game, unless you have motivation. How do you get motivation? by setting goals and buying cool stuff to show for the money you're winning. I recently set a challenge for myself (check the 'my new challenge' thread if you're interested) and that just gave me a boost in my motivation to play. The money is great and if/when I can learn to simply not care about the fluctuations, i'll learn to enjoy playing pro much more. I am already pretty good at not caring if i'm down 1.5k in a day which i'm proud of, because a month ago i could not of said that.I think it's really important to balance your life if you play pro and do things outside of poker or you'll lose your mind. You can't be playing 60 hour weeks and getting pissed when you lose because frankly, that's just not healthy and wont get you happiness.I want to be happy and I think playing poker profesionally is for me, I just have to learn to view some things differently before I can fully say I love my job. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade this job for any job, but I can't say i'm fully happy right now. I have no doubt I will be able to in the near future, however.Gabe

I thought you had high blood pressure and were thinking of becoming a monk, 'cause of the stress?

[socalpoker_j 1]

If you can't separate the emotional ups and downs related with poker you're going to have a hard time being a long term winner in the game. I've found that no matter how good of a player you are, if you aren't able to keep the correct emotional temperature at all times, a strong skillset/love for the game will not matter. Being able to reign in your emotions is a huge part of the game and often overlooked. You can get my AIM from Mark sometime if you want to talk (I've been playing live poker as a source of income all throughout college). Best of luck in your decision making process Scott.

[chgocubs99 0]

Absolutely fantastic posts by PMJackson, checky, SilkyJohnson, and Naked Cowboy.Anyone thinking about it should read these posts again, and again, and again, IMO to decide if this is what they really want to do, most importantly the points by Naked Cowboy in the last half of his post about the security of a full time job. Also, Silkyjohnson's point that it is not all it is cracked up to be...I'm sure that's debatable, but any full time pro besides the highest of the high limit players and the most elite of the middle limit grinders (both of whom supplement their poker income with investments to maintain a living) that poker is WORK. It is a different kind of work such as waking up at noon, traveling frequently, having no boss, not commuting to work, more freedom, etc etc but it is still not easy by any means. Perhaps the most disciplined players (Hoosier pops into mind (yes I see you lurking)) have it "easier" than ones that are more tilty, but it is a grind, and there's really no way around it.PS This is simply from observation over the last 7 years of playing part time, using poker as "spending money" and never taking the plunge and giving it a run. If you're looking for real advice I can't stress enough to read those first few columns over and over again and really take it in.

[Jennings7 0]

This thread is definitely delivering. Please keep posting in here pro's.

[GWCGWC 83]

well, i think that there are probably certain types of people who would enjoy playing full time a lot more than others. i know that lots of people say what i did above--that i dislike authority and schedules, etc--but i do know that most people are better equipped to deal with them than me. if you can deal with them, a real job is definitely a safer bet. also, it's really tough to love poker when you're losing, and everyone loses at some point. it takes a little luck and a little stoicism to deal with the rough patches that are bound to arise. i think something like the lilholdem post on p5s is pretty indicative of a general trend among young players getting started at professional poker--he simply lacked the maturity to deal with a rough patch properly and acted like an ass. granted, that's to be expected to some degree. lord knows i whined when i ran bad. but i think that indicates that "pro poker" requires a pretty high level of maturity to really do as a career, though that's not to say that a 20 something with a lot of talent shouldn't give it a go if s/he really wants to.

I think we get to kick you in the nuts now or something. yes?

[Balloon guy 158]

Two words:Sugar Momma