Is Homosexuality Really A Sin?

[Loismustdie 0]

Ok, I guess I get it now. It's hard to understand looking from the outside in. I've always thought of Jesus as a pretty good guy...but if he said that you can go ahead and break all the basic commandments (including thou shalt not kill) as long as you accept him as your savior, then he's starting to look more like a cult leader than anything else.I just want to be clear here, so let's look at two people.Person A: Rapes, murders, steals, etc for his whole life. After finally being caught at 50 he goes to prison and accepts JC as his savior and that he died for our sins, etc. Person B: Is a good person his whole life. Gives time and money to charity, raises a good family, yada yada yada. But although he thinks JC was a good guy, he does not believe that he was also the son of God or that he rose from the dead.So A goes to heaven and B does not.True or False? If true, then does that really seem right to you? Like a system an omnipotent being would create? If false, then what am I missing?I'm not trying to be a **** as much as trying to figure out how you're thinking.

Nick Papagiorgio kicks ***. And, Matt won't like this but technically if you belive in the whole accept Jesus Christ in your heart as your personal saviour thing, you would be correct. The only real defense that could be said to refute your point of view is heart- is that persons heart really changed? Ha he really accepted christ, and if he was released would he truly be a different person? No. He would still rape and kill. Maybe, occasionally one might actually be the right kind of heart- that would be up to God. That's one of the reasons why I don't buy into that idea- I think that it's too easy, and creates situations such as the one you brought up where it is obvious insanity to claim that this person is actually a new man.

[Loismustdie 0]

It wouldn't matter at all is incorrect. It wouldn't matter in the scope of salvation though... unless it was something you were unwilling to give up or repent of.

That's correct. Look at the different scriptures and you will notice that repentance is always important to God- he wants to see change of the inner man.

[speedz99 145]

falseIll let u think about whats wrong with person A

False? Even if he truly has a change of heart?

And, Matt won't like this but technically if you belive in the whole accept Jesus Christ in your heart as your personal saviour thing, you would be correct. The only real defense that could be said to refute your point of view is heart- is that persons heart really changed? Ha he really accepted christ, and if he was released would he truly be a different person? No. He would still rape and kill.Maybe, occasionally one might actually be the right kind of heart- that would be up to God. That's one of the reasons why I don't buy into that idea- I think that it's too easy, and creates situations such as the one you brought up where it is obvious insanity to claim that this person is actually a new man.

Ok, I'll buy that. I guess if there's anyone that could see through an attempt to circumvent the system to get into heaven, it would be God.Still sucks to be person B though.

[NickTheKid 0]

False? Even if he truly has a change of heart?Ok, I'll buy that. I guess if there's anyone that could see through an attempt to circumvent the system to get into heaven, it would be God.Still sucks to be person B though.

It would suck if this were actually fact. But it's not, it's here say and fear mongering. If you don't believe you go to hell. Even the concept of a "hell" is ridiculous.

[Loismustdie 0]

It would suck if this were actually fact. But it's not, it's here say and fear mongering. If you don't believe you go to hell. Even the concept of a "hell" is ridiculous.

Why?

[Flack_attack 0]

Why?

Reread the thread Canada started titled "God loves you? Give me a break".

[Mercury69 3]

It's not a sin. Anyone who thinks it is a sin is no better than a Nazi. Ultimately, it's simply another form of love. I know gay couple that have been together for decades. Very, very few of them are pedophiles (far more heteros are), a large % are monogamous and they really know how to decorate, dress and throw a party. Srsly, what's wrong with you nitwits for thinking it's a sin? Who do you think you are anyway? Representants of God or something?

[antistuff 0]

It's not a sin. Anyone who thinks it is a sin is no better than a Nazi. Ultimately, it's simply another form of love. I know gay couple that have been together for decades. Very, very few of them are pedophiles (far more heteros are), a large % are monogamous and they really know how to decorate, dress and throw a party. Srsly, what's wrong with you nitwits for thinking it's a sin? Who do you think you are anyway? Representants of God or something?

i invoke godwin's law therefore i win!!!and please dont make gay people out to be just like boring married straight people except..well..gay. its insulting. and the argument wasnt about if you think its a sin, it was about if it was a sin according to the bible.

[Mercury69 3]

i invoke godwin's law therefore i win!!!and please dont make gay people out to be just like boring married straight people except..well..gay. its insulting. and the argument wasnt about if you think its a sin, it was about if it was a sin according to the bible.

OK. It's still not a sin and I highly doubt anything from the Bible directly infers that it's a sin, so shut your God-hole.

[antistuff 0]

OK. It's still not a sin and I highly doubt anything from the Bible directly infers that it's a sin

thats very debatable and there are good arguments from both sides. there are things that directly infer that its a sin, look at previous posts for a verse saying just this.

so shut your God-hole.

guh?

[BWToth 0]

OK. It's still not a sin and I highly doubt anything from the Bible directly infers that it's a sin, so shut your God-hole.

I didn't realize you were this ignorant.

[Mercury69 3]

I didn't realize you were this ignorant.

What's ignorant about my statement? Oh, wait, I know! You don't like fags! Well, slap me on the *** and call me Woody!Listen, if you guys want to "debate" whether or not the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, that's fine. Just remember what text you actually are drawing from. Half of the guys who wrote that stuff were probably screwing barnyard animals or multiple wives. It's over 20 centuries old and there's not all that much that can be proven to have happened. Oh, look! I'm subverting the Bible!It's a pathetic waste of time to debate this. Accept homosexuality for what it is: A form of love. Love is God's purest message, no? /putting on fire and brimstone resistant undies...

[BWToth 0]

What's ignorant about my statement? Oh, wait, I know! You don't like fags! Well, slap me on the *** and call me Woody!Listen, if you guys want to "debate" whether or not the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, that's fine. Just remember what text you actually are drawing from. Half of the guys who wrote that stuff were probably screwing barnyard animals or multiple wives. It's over 20 centuries old and there's not all that much that can be proven to have happened. Oh, look! I'm subverting the Bible!It's a pathetic waste of time to debate this. Accept homosexuality for what it is: A form of love. Love is God's purest message, no? /putting on fire and brimstone resistant undies...

None of these things refute my reasoning for your ignorance.

[Mercury69 3]

None of these things refute my reasoning for your ignorance.

And nothing of how you replied answers my question nor does it elucidate or support in any way, shape or form your thought process and only indicates how narrow-minded you seem to be. If you have a real point, make or stfu.

[BWToth 0]

you need to relax...immediately.

[Mercury69 3]

you need to relax...immediately.

Oh, so you're just kidding around? My mistake!A) I tolerate and accept homosexuality, although I do not embrace it's lifestyle as I am hetero.B) I abhor extremismC) I won't tolerate being told what to think and how to feel. I am intelligent, educated and relatively enlightened, so I'm perfectly capable of making up my own mind on things. If I have a question, I'll generally seek out a variety of answersSeriously, if what I'm saying doesn't make sense to you somehow, then explain what you think is "incorrect" about it.

[antistuff 0]

What's ignorant about my statement? Oh, wait, I know! You don't like fags! Well, slap me on the *** and call me Woody!Listen, if you guys want to "debate" whether or not the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, that's fine. Just remember what text you actually are drawing from. Half of the guys who wrote that stuff were probably screwing barnyard animals or multiple wives. It's over 20 centuries old and there's not all that much that can be proven to have happened. Oh, look! I'm subverting the Bible!It's a pathetic waste of time to debate this. Accept homosexuality for what it is: A form of love. Love is God's purest message, no? /putting on fire and brimstone resistant undies...

wow. you seem to think that because we're discussing this we're all crazy fundamentalist christians.im an athiest for what its worth. if you sat down and talked with me you might actually even end up calling me a satanist. and i happen to think that this is a very worthwhile thing to debate. that book, and chrisanity in general, regardless of what you think of it, is a very important part of our lives and culture (im making assumptions about where you live, correct me if you live in mongolia and im wrong). writting it off and dismissing it the way you seem to want to is a huge mistake if you want to have any understanding about the world around you.

[Mercury69 3]

wow. you seem to think that because we're discussing this we're all crazy fundamentalist christians.im an athiest for what its worth. if you sat down and talked with me you might actually even end up calling me a satanist. and i happen to think that this is a very worthwhile thing to debate. that book, and chrisanity in general, regardless of what you think of it, is a very important part of our lives and culture (im making assumptions about where you live, correct me if you live in mongolia and im wrong). writting it off and dismissing it the way you seem to want to is a huge mistake if you want to have any understanding about the world around you.

I'm not dismissing the Bible. I'm diminishing it's importance with regard to how we interpret it, given that so much has changed since its writing. "Written by men in a patriarchal society as a means to influence thought and action" would not be a statement that is out of line, in my opinion. I am simply just sick of hearing people interpret the Bible for their own self-interest, including those who think being gay is an abomination. The Bible contains much that is worthwhile, both things that are spiritual in nature, as well as a wide variety of tenets that offer advice and counsel with regard to everyday actions and such, so it can be of aide and succor to those who would apply such notions.But I digress...I'm just saying I'm intolerant of intolerance, that's all. I try not to judge people, but I can't help but get riled up when the people who are doing the judging try and justify their own narrow, partisan views by using the Bible. It makes things so sick and twisted.

[BWToth 0]

I'm not dismissing the Bible. I'm diminishing it's importance with regard to how we interpret it, given that so much has changed since its writing. "Written by men in a patriarchal society as a means to influence thought and action" would not be a statement that is out of line, in my opinion. I am simply just sick of hearing people interpret the Bible for their own self-interest, including those who think being gay is an abomination. The Bible contains much that is worthwhile, both things that are spiritual in nature, as well as a wide variety of tenets that offer advice and counsel with regard to everyday actions and such, so it can be of aide and succor to those who would apply such notions.But I digress...I'm just saying I'm intolerant of intolerance, that's all. I try not to judge people, but I can't help but get riled up when the people who are doing the judging try and justify their own narrow, partisan views by using the Bible. It makes things so sick and twisted.

Problem is, that is not the Christian outlook on the Bible. They believe that it is the 'inspired' word of God so it is irrelevant when and by whom it was written. The other problem is that being that the Bible is inherently contradictory it is possible to glean two different opinions about the same matter when basing its morality on the Bible.Homosexuality is one of these, it is possible to have multiple interpretations of what the Bible's stance is regarding homosexuality, albeit the predominant one for Christians is that the Bible says homosexuality is wrong.Your first problem is that you are not accepting that fact that this thread was not created to be Bible believers v. non-bible followers, it was an argument whose first presumption was that the entire debate was to take place in terms of what the bible deems about homosexuality. Therefore saying we can't use the Bible to determine whether homosexuality is a 'sin' is both illogical and moot.antistuff is correct, you are dismissing the Bible or Christianity as a guide for determining views on issues that affect our society today yet the majority of the society that is going to determine what society's views are on the given subject ARE Christians. So whether you like it or not the Bible carries some weight, no matter how illogical, flawed, irrational, contradictory, or hypocritical it, or believing in it is.While this may not be the thread to debate the bible and christianity's merit, there are other one's that are. But you're initial statement trashing the bible without evidence will get you nowhere in that debate either.

[Mercury69 3]

Problem is, that is not the Christian outlook on the Bible. They believe that it is the 'inspired' word of God so it is irrelevant when and by whom it was written. The other problem is that being that the Bible is inherently contradictory it is possible to glean two different opinions about the same matter when basing its morality on the Bible.Homosexuality is one of these, it is possible to have multiple interpretations of what the Bible's stance is regarding homosexuality, albeit the predominant one for Christians is that the Bible says homosexuality is wrong.Your first problem is that you are not accepting that fact that this thread was not created to be Bible believers v. non-bible followers, it was an argument whose first presumption was that the entire debate was to take place in terms of what the bible deems about homosexuality. Therefore saying we can't use the Bible to determine whether homosexuality is a 'sin' is both illogical and moot.antistuff is correct, you are dismissing the Bible or Christianity as a guide for determining views on issues that affect our society today yet the majority of the society that is going to determine what society's views are on the given subject ARE Christians. So whether you like it or not the Bible carries some weight, no matter how illogical, flawed, irrational, contradictory, or hypocritical it, or believing in it is.While this may not be the thread to debate the bible and christianity's merit, there are other one's that are. But you're initial statement trashing the bible without evidence will get you nowhere in that debate either.

Now, that makes much more sense and is a much clearer refutation of my somewhat ignorant dismissal of the Bible. At this point, I think we can agree on one thing: It's the weeknd! That and the fact that, yes, I did initially jump into the fray without considering the possibility that this was far more than a polarized arguement. While I won't retract my statements, I will say that I stand corrected and was, initially, far too hasty in dispensing my thoughts when there was so much material I hadn't considered.Anyway, have a nice debate, I might visit later and, perhaps, contribute something other than my own flagrantly liberal views.Peace!

[BWToth 0]

Please do visit later, I'm still sitting at my desk right now and my clock says 5:01...AAH, i gotta get out of here.

[NickTheKid 0]

Why?

It creates a world to fear, so it's fear mongering. The typical "good" vs. "evil" battle, if you don't follow gods law down to a "T" you are sinning, we all sin, every day... but if the concept of hell scares some people enough, they buy into it and guess what they do - They go to church every Sunday, force their children into it... so it grabs them at an early age, donate to the collection plate, do charity work for the church, and not follow any other religion or else... Satan will have a field day? Give me a fucking break.It's sickening, if I had the time to do my full winded debate with 1000's of words I would, but I'm sleepy. Maybe tomorrow if I'm up too it.I will say this though - How many times has the bible been proved wrong with science? And nothing was said about it... I will just point out a brilliant man... Galileo Galilei... for those who were going to ask for "ZOMG ZOMG WHEN WAS THE CHURCH WRONG?!!?!?!?! ZOMG!"

[Loismustdie 0]

It creates a world to fear, so it's fear mongering. The typical "good" vs. "evil" battle, if you don't follow gods law down to a "T" you are sinning, we all sin, every day... but if the concept of hell scares some people enough, they buy into it and guess what they do - They go to church every Sunday, force their children into it... so it grabs them at an early age, donate to the collection plate, do charity work for the church, and not follow any other religion or else... Satan will have a field day? Give me a fucking break.It's sickening, if I had the time to do my full winded debate with 1000's of words I would, but I'm sleepy. Maybe tomorrow if I'm up too it.I will say this though - How many times has the bible been proved wrong with science? And nothing was said about it... I will just point out a brilliant man... Galileo Galilei... for those who were going to ask for "ZOMG ZOMG WHEN WAS THE CHURCH WRONG?!!?!?!?! ZOMG!"

In that case,telling anyone to not do anything because of a probable bad outcome would be fearmongering. So, this is my reply: Stop being a baby. Once again, you seem to group christianity and the bible with catholocism. Not the same thing. Try reading the bible, try coming up with your own thoughts and not regurgitating others, and then speak. Or, speak out of ignorance I don't care. It's your call. Satan is already having a field day. Look around you. Read the news much? Watch T.V. much? The world is Satans playground.

[Loismustdie 0]

I'm not dismissing the Bible. I'm diminishing it's importance with regard to how we interpret it, given that so much has changed since its writing. "Written by men in a patriarchal society as a means to influence thought and action" would not be a statement that is out of line, in my opinion. I am simply just sick of hearing people interpret the Bible for their own self-interest, including those who think being gay is an abomination. The Bible contains much that is worthwhile, both things that are spiritual in nature, as well as a wide variety of tenets that offer advice and counsel with regard to everyday actions and such, so it can be of aide and succor to those who would apply such notions.But I digress...I'm just saying I'm intolerant of intolerance, that's all. I try not to judge people, but I can't help but get riled up when the people who are doing the judging try and justify their own narrow, partisan views by using the Bible. It makes things so sick and twisted.

Or, being perfectly nonchalant about the quite violent act of penetrating a man in the hindquarters is sick and twisted. Maybe that's just me. Naw, it's not. Whew.

[semaj550 0]

One of the greatest problems facing morality debates is the appeal to a subjective morality. We often think that because something is distasteful to us it must also be immoral. Or we try to apply a utilitarian model and conclude that morality is what creates the most good for the most people. First of all, if we are to debate morality we must start with the presumption that there is an objective moral standard, otherwise we are just arguing personal preference (if morality is subjective prove to me that murder is immoral). Second, we must agree that utility does not equal morality (if what produces the greatest good is the most moral, prove to me that rape is immoral). I think we can all agree that both murder and rape are immoral so there must be some objective standard for morality and that this standard is above worldly manipulation.So the issue isn't whether you personally find homosexuality distasteful; it is whether this objective standard of morality deems homosexuality to be immoral.I propose that God is the moral standard and the Bible contains teachings on morality. If this is true (which could a lengthy but welcome debate) it doesn't matter what you think personally about homosexuality. The only thing that matters is what God tells us about homosexuality. Does the Catholic church have a monopoly on interpreting the Bible? Absolutely not; and I say this a Catholic. If Catholicism is not your choice that is fine. Jesus tells us that the path to the Father is through Him. God tells us that we will find Him when we seek Him with all our heart. I think these two things will guide you to the correct answer.