Is Homosexuality Really A Sin?

[Loismustdie 0]

One of the greatest problems facing morality debates is the appeal to a subjective morality. We often think that because something is distasteful to us it must also be immoral. Or we try to apply a utilitarian model and conclude that morality is what creates the most good for the most people. First of all, if we are to debate morality we must start with the presumption that there is an objective moral standard, otherwise we are just arguing personal preference (if morality is subjective prove to me that murder is immoral). Second, we must agree that utility does not equal morality (if what produces the greatest good is the most moral, prove to me that rape is immoral). I think we can all agree that both murder and rape are immoral so there must be some objective standard for morality and that this standard is above worldly manipulation.So the issue isn't whether you personally find homosexuality distasteful; it is whether this objective standard of morality deems homosexuality to be immoral.I propose that God is the moral standard and the Bible contains teachings on morality. If this is true (which could a lengthy but welcome debate) it doesn't matter what you think personally about homosexuality. The only thing that matters is what God tells us about homosexuality. Does the Catholic church have a monopoly on interpreting the Bible? Absolutely not; and I say this a Catholic. If Catholicism is not your choice that is fine. Jesus tells us that the path to the Father is through Him. God tells us that we will find Him when we seek Him with all our heart. I think these two things will guide you to the correct answer.

I need to go to work, if I get time tonight I will try and address this statement. Good stuff, though, really good.

[antistuff 0]

I think we can all agree that both murder and rape are immoral so there must be some objective standard for morality and that this standard is above worldly manipulation.

absolutely not.

[Mattnxtc 0]

It creates a world to fear, so it's fear mongering. The typical "good" vs. "evil" battle, if you don't follow gods law down to a "T" you are sinning, we all sin, every day... but if the concept of hell scares some people enough, they buy into it and guess what they do - They go to church every Sunday, force their children into it... so it grabs them at an early age, donate to the collection plate, do charity work for the church, and not follow any other religion or else... Satan will have a field day? Give me a fucking break.It's sickening, if I had the time to do my full winded debate with 1000's of words I would, but I'm sleepy. Maybe tomorrow if I'm up too it.I will say this though - How many times has the bible been proved wrong with science? And nothing was said about it... I will just point out a brilliant man... Galileo Galilei... for those who were going to ask for "ZOMG ZOMG WHEN WAS THE CHURCH WRONG?!!?!?!?! ZOMG!"

man you really know very little about christianity with this rant...This is not even close to christianity..again you have shown your ignorance for what the 5th time in this thread if not more

[BWToth 0]

man you really know very little about christianity with this rant...This is not even close to christianity..again you have shown your ignorance for what the 5th time in this thread if not more

No Matt, The problem is for many people, I'm not including you because i don't know, the first paragraph of Nick's post IS what christianity is for a lot of people. It's not something they contemplate, question, analyze or develop in their own mind, it simply IS the way it IS and that's the end of it. That is where the problem lies.If someone comes in with an open mind, uses solid reasoning, and comes to the conclusion that they would like to choose chrisitanity, I will respect that opinion. But in most 'christians' have NOT done the former.

[BWToth 0]

An unquestioning, unwavering fundamentalist evangelical american christian is by nature in the class of biggest bigots in the world. That, by definition and empirical deduction is a FACT.

[Loismustdie 0]

An unquestioning, unwavering fundamentalist evangelical american christian is by nature in the class of biggest bigots in the world. That, by definition and empirical deduction is a FACT.

Sure. You do realize that's a small percentage of religion, right?

[Mattnxtc 0]

No Matt, The problem is for many people, I'm not including you because i don't know, the first paragraph of Nick's post IS what christianity is for a lot of people. It's not something they contemplate, question, analyze or develop in their own mind, it simply IS the way it IS and that's the end of it. That is where the problem lies.If someone comes in with an open mind, uses solid reasoning, and comes to the conclusion that they would like to choose chrisitanity, I will respect that opinion. But in most 'christians' have NOT done the former.

NO the problem is that for so many people..this is an excuse they use...are there some fundamentalist groups that preach the first line? of course there are...but no mainstream christian group does preach this...Mainstream christianity actually preaches the exact opposite of this...see legalismYou tend to generalize when i really dont think you are all that familiar with the ins and outs of christianity. Quite a few people have come with an openmind and id assume most on this board are here discussin it b/c they have actually done the work

[semaj550 0]

absolutely not.

So which is it that you prefer to engage in?

[semaj550 0]

No Matt, The problem is for many people, I'm not including you because i don't know, the first paragraph of Nick's post IS what christianity is for a lot of people. It's not something they contemplate, question, analyze or develop in their own mind, it simply IS the way it IS and that's the end of it. That is where the problem lies.If someone comes in with an open mind, uses solid reasoning, and comes to the conclusion that they would like to choose chrisitanity, I will respect that opinion. But in most 'christians' have NOT done the former.

Is this a point against Christianity or Christians? Each and every Christian is not necessarily a clear reflection of Christianity itself.As Ghandi said, "I like their Christ, I don't like their Christians."We are all sinners, Christian or not. To be human is to sin, priests sin. If people choose to not fully understand their faith and end up viewing hell as a burning pit of fire into which God throws sinners, then they do not fully understand Christianity. As Christians we are called to live a Christ-like life but we will always fall short through sin. This doesn't make Christianity fallible, it makes people fallible.

[semaj550 0]

It creates a world to fear, so it's fear mongering. The typical "good" vs. "evil" battle, if you don't follow gods law down to a "T" you are sinning, we all sin, every day... but if the concept of hell scares some people enough, they buy into it and guess what they do - They go to church every Sunday, force their children into it... so it grabs them at an early age, donate to the collection plate, do charity work for the church, and not follow any other religion or else... Satan will have a field day? Give me a fucking break.It's sickening, if I had the time to do my full winded debate with 1000's of words I would, but I'm sleepy. Maybe tomorrow if I'm up too it.I will say this though - How many times has the bible been proved wrong with science? And nothing was said about it... I will just point out a brilliant man... Galileo Galilei... for those who were going to ask for "ZOMG ZOMG WHEN WAS THE CHURCH WRONG?!!?!?!?! ZOMG!"

Sin is not something that we can avoid deciding we don't like the concept of it. It is also not a relative concept. Do good people do bad things? Of course they do! Does God punish us for them? No. Christianity teaches that God gave us free will, revealed just enough of Himself that we could reasonably choose Him, and then (to a degree) left the rest up to us. Hell is a result of a person's failure to reconcile themselves with God. It is something we choose, not something that is done to us. Sin isn't the problem, it's the lack of repentance.Jesus told us that the only way to Heaven is through Him and above all else it requires that you love God with all your heart and your neighbour as yourself. Have you ever hurt someone you love? Did they forgive you when you apologized? Your relationship with God isn't really all that different.This is what Christianity teaches. If specific Christians fail to understand this and live their life in fear of the God that loves them...well I pray for them. Christianity certainly isn't engaged in fearmongering.

[antistuff 0]

So which is it that you prefer to engage in?

Because somebody thinks that morality is relative they are a murderer or a rapist?

[semaj550 0]

Because somebody thinks that morality is relative they are a murderer or a rapist?

No, you said that you don't agree that murder and rape are immoral. I wanted to know which you supported.

[BWToth 0]

NO the problem is that for so many people..this is an excuse they use...are there some fundamentalist groups that preach the first line? of course there are...but no mainstream christian group does preach this...Mainstream christianity actually preaches the exact opposite of this...see legalismYou tend to generalize when i really dont think you are all that familiar with the ins and outs of christianity. Quite a few people have come with an openmind and id assume most on this board are here discussin it b/c they have actually done the work

is 22 years going to a christian church enough 'work' for you matt?"It creates a world to fear, so it's fear mongering. The typical "good" vs. "evil" battle, if you don't follow gods law down to a "T" you are sinning, we all sin, every day"You're telling me that line isn't a part of mainstream christianity? if so you are wrong.Fear of god is preached, fear of hell is preached, good v. evil, god v. satan, we all sin, that's why we have to believe in jesus and be baptized. These things are real, and in the bible, and preached in all christian churches i've ever been to, and that is many.

[Mattnxtc 0]

is 22 years going to a christian church enough 'work' for you matt?"It creates a world to fear, so it's fear mongering. The typical "good" vs. "evil" battle, if you don't follow gods law down to a "T" you are sinning, we all sin, every day"You're telling me that line isn't a part of mainstream christianity? if so you are wrong.Fear of god is preached, fear of hell is preached, good v. evil, god v. satan, we all sin, that's why we have to believe in jesus and be baptized. These things are real, and in the bible, and preached in all christian churches i've ever been to, and that is many.

AGain you who probably have not gone to church are questioning a church goer who is somewhate familiar with the reality? Your statement is so far off that I hvae to question if u have ever stepped in to a church or listened to a decent preacher...mainstream christianity is so far from ur reality that its laughable. Please consider asking questions instead of makin statements that show ur lack of understanding.

[semaj550 0]

is 22 years going to a christian church enough 'work' for you matt?"It creates a world to fear, so it's fear mongering. The typical "good" vs. "evil" battle, if you don't follow gods law down to a "T" you are sinning, we all sin, every day"You're telling me that line isn't a part of mainstream christianity? if so you are wrong.Fear of god is preached, fear of hell is preached, good v. evil, god v. satan, we all sin, that's why we have to believe in jesus and be baptized. These things are real, and in the bible, and preached in all christian churches i've ever been to, and that is many.

Matt does have a point."Fear" of God isn't being scared of him. In Romans we have God's promise that nothing can separate us from His love and in Hebrews we have His promise that He will never leave or forsake us. Would you be afraid of the one person in all of existence who promises to love you no matter what happens - ever - and means it? I'm sure not afraid of Him. The term is used more in the context of revering God to such an extent as it affect the way we live our day-to-day lives.I can't speak for any specific denomination other than Roman Catholic but I've not had any experience with Christianity, Christians, or Christian literature that trys to make us scared of God and pray that he doesn't throw us into a pit of eternal damnation. God is infinite love. He simply isn't malicious as that scenario would suggest.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Matt does have a point."Fear" of God isn't being scared of him. In Romans we have God's promise that nothing can separate us from His love and in Hebrews we have His promise that He will never leave or forsake us. Would you be afraid of the one person in all of existence who promises to love you no matter what happens - ever - and means it? I'm sure not afraid of Him. The term is used more in the context of revering God to such an extent as it affect the way we live our day-to-day lives.I can't speak for any specific denomination other than Roman Catholic but I've not had any experience with Christianity, Christians, or Christian literature that trys to make us scared of God and pray that he doesn't throw us into a pit of eternal damnation. God is infinite love. He simply isn't malicious as that scenario would suggest.

further i want to add something else...I dont have my greek translations with me but what youll see more often is that when you see the word "fear" in reference to God it actually translates to the english "reverance" or "honor." AS sema noted, christians just dont teach that fire and brimstone nonsense that some try to say is there. The bible says we are "Saved through the Grace of God" That it is nothing we will do but is based entirely on God's love. Ephesians 2:8-10. Every christian understands that we will sin and will continue to sin. So to live by ur standard bw...or should i call you toth? a christain should be sittin in his home in a box doing nothing. The reality is that yours and Nicks understanding are just common excuses as to why not to look into christianity.

[BWToth 0]

Matt you cannot even read plain english, and you choose to ignore facts and statements I made, this is typical of the ignorance of the many christians i know.my first sentence is that i have grown up in the church for 22 years, non-denominational christian. So you're statement that questions whether I have stepped into a church is so ridiculous to make when i TELL you in the first line of my post that i have gone to church for 22 years.Furthermore, if you read the bible there are just as many verses that talk about the punishment from god of those who are living in sin and the wrath of hell as there are about god's loving and understanding. So which is it? The bible states both. I could see how the other poster who is catholic may not know that, considered catholics rarely use the bible.Furthermore, define 'mainstream' christianity, you seem to be implying the version of chrisitanity that you prescribe to. But the type of christian I described IS mainstream where I come from, NC, heart of the bible belt. It's conservative, evangelical, christian. I don't know where you're from or what 'type' of christian you claim to be but you clearly don't know what yo're talking about and have no evidence to prove that your 'mainstream' christain DOESN'T portray the charactarisics I described.If you think my 'undstanding' is 'so far off' from the real 'reality' then please enlighten me as to what the REAL 'reality' of christianity is. I can most definitely give you a checklist, or cliff notes, of the standard beliefs and guidelines for what the version of christianity that I know holds to, and i guarantee it is in the "mainstream".

[Mattnxtc 0]

Matt you cannot even read plain english, and you choose to ignore facts and statements I made, this is typical of the ignorance of the many christians i know.my first sentence is that i have grown up in the church for 22 years, non-denominational christian. So you're statement that questions whether I have stepped into a church is so ridiculous to make when i TELL you in the first line of my post that i have gone to church for 22 years.Furthermore, if you read the bible there are just as many verses that talk about the punishment from god of those who are living in sin and the wrath of hell as there are about god's loving and understanding. So which is it? The bible states both. I could see how the other poster who is catholic may not know that, considered catholics rarely use the bible.Furthermore, define 'mainstream' christianity, you seem to be implying the version of chrisitanity that you prescribe to. But the type of christian I described IS mainstream where I come from, NC, heart of the bible belt. It's conservative, evangelical, christian. I don't know where you're from or what 'type' of christian you claim to be but you clearly don't know what yo're talking about and have no evidence to prove that your 'mainstream' christain DOESN'T portray the charactarisics I described.If you think my 'undstanding' is 'so far off' from the real 'reality' then please enlighten me as to what the REAL 'reality' of christianity is. I can most definitely give you a checklist, or cliff notes, of the standard beliefs and guidelines for what the version of christianity that I know holds to, and i guarantee it is in the "mainstream".

If u actually were apart of a non-denominational then i find it highly unlikely that you were subjected to any sort of legalism that you are so adament existed. Why? B/c I have taught and been apart of multiple nondenominational as well as learning from some of the top professors of nondenominational and guess what...not a single one teaches anything remotely close to "follow the word of God to the T or else". If thats what you were taught then im sorry but that sucks that you went to a church like that. As I said some will exist but in the minority of it all. As for no evidence? going with the "mainstream" we can look at all the major pastors and see that absolutely none of them preach what u described. Since you claim to be wise on the bible...lets start simple..What does the bible say about sin? What does the bible say about grace? If you actually participated in ur nondenominational church then these should be very easy questions.

[BWToth 0]

everyone sins.we are saved from sin through the grace of god, assuming that we believe in him and are baptized.I already said all this. The bible does say to follow its laws and teachings, FACT. It also says that no one can or does, except jesus, FACT. What's you're point?You are making the arguement that you doubt that I went to the church I say I did based on your experiences at YOUR church. I'm telling you my church that grew up in IS the way i say it is because I WENT to it.Which one makes a better argument?I can't continue to debate with you when you refuse to listen, and use logic to formulate your own thoughts.

[semaj550 0]

Matt you cannot even read plain english, and you choose to ignore facts and statements I made, this is typical of the ignorance of the many christians i know.my first sentence is that i have grown up in the church for 22 years, non-denominational christian. So you're statement that questions whether I have stepped into a church is so ridiculous to make when i TELL you in the first line of my post that i have gone to church for 22 years.Furthermore, if you read the bible there are just as many verses that talk about the punishment from god of those who are living in sin and the wrath of hell as there are about god's loving and understanding. So which is it? The bible states both. I could see how the other poster who is catholic may not know that, considered catholics rarely use the bible.Furthermore, define 'mainstream' christianity, you seem to be implying the version of chrisitanity that you prescribe to. But the type of christian I described IS mainstream where I come from, NC, heart of the bible belt. It's conservative, evangelical, christian. I don't know where you're from or what 'type' of christian you claim to be but you clearly don't know what yo're talking about and have no evidence to prove that your 'mainstream' christain DOESN'T portray the charactarisics I described.If you think my 'undstanding' is 'so far off' from the real 'reality' then please enlighten me as to what the REAL 'reality' of christianity is. I can most definitely give you a checklist, or cliff notes, of the standard beliefs and guidelines for what the version of christianity that I know holds to, and i guarantee it is in the "mainstream".

Please provide specific examples from scripture that talk about punishment from God which you believe to be inconsistent with God's loving nature.

[BWToth 0]

Please provide specific examples from scripture that talk about punishment from God which you believe to be inconsistent with God's loving nature.

"If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."..........John 15:6"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the son shall not see life, but the wrath of god rests upon him.".........John 3:36"The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."..........Matthew 13:49These were only with 3 minutes of searching.

[Loismustdie 0]

"If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."..........John 15:6"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the son shall not see life, but the wrath of god rests upon him.".........John 3:36"The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."..........Matthew 13:49These were only with 3 minutes of searching.

There are recompences to sin. So what?

[Loismustdie 0]

everyone sins.we are saved from sin through the grace of god, assuming that we believe in him and are baptized.I already said all this. The bible does say to follow its laws and teachings, FACT. It also says that no one can or does, except jesus, FACT. What's you're point?You are making the arguement that you doubt that I went to the church I say I did based on your experiences at YOUR church. I'm telling you my church that grew up in IS the way i say it is because I WENT to it.Which one makes a better argument?I can't continue to debate with you when you refuse to listen, and use logic to formulate your own thoughts.

I lean towards BWToths line of thinking, except I never looked at it as fear mongering, because of this: People that came to church were baptized christians, for the most part doing what they could to serve God. Hell,fire and brimstone type teaching wasn't really neccesary. The facts as supported by the bible were presented,and what poeple do with that is up to them. When it comes down to it, nobody really knows what people are doing behind closed doors, there life as it is is between them and God, and judgement rendered by him would be based on that. I personally think and have said that mainstream christianity is way to easy on people- hell,fire and brimstone isn't taught nearly enough. It's Jesus loves you, give your money and see you next sunday. Rarely do you find the person who actually lives christianity in there day to day lives.

[semaj550 0]

I still don't see how these are inconsistent with God's love.

"If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."..........John 15:6

If someone says to God, "I hate you and will hate you for all eternity," what choice is God left with? God cannot sit idely by in the face of such defiance. If He does, it would be to reduce God Himself.

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the son shall not see life, but the wrath of god rests upon him.".........John 3:36

Many versions of the Bible translate this as "...the wrath of god remains upon him." or as "...the wraith of god abides on him."This suggests that the man who does not obey the Son is already experiencing God's wrath. This wrath comes in the form of separation from God, a choice we are given to freely make.

"The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."..........Matthew 13:49These were only with 3 minutes of searching.

Well ofcourse men with weep and gnash their teeth! They have received their just reward for their chosen defiance of God. It doesn't say anything about eternal torment coming from God, it comes from within the justly punished.You also need to realize the use of metaphor in the Bible. Flames are often used to represent judgement. For example in Hebrews 12:29 God is called a consuming fire. Yet, to quote J.P. Moreland, "Nobody thinks God is a cosmic Bunsen burner. Using the flame imagery is a way of saying he's a God of judgement."I believe God's intention is clear in the follow:"Say to them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from their ways and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?"- Ezekiel 33:11

[BWToth 0]

So is a good way to get a man to 'turn from his wicked ways' to threaten to 'throw them in the fire'? This seems like a clear cut way to create obedience through the FEAR of the punishment you will recieve from doing otherwise.Doesn't make sense, why would the most powerful entity in the universe decide to not make sense?