Going Bust

[Gus_Herbert 0]

I recently went bust this week losing my small yet hard-earned bankroll (pokerstars) of $1300.00 over about a months time.I play a lot of $20, $30, and $10 Sit and Goes. Mostly multi table No Limit Holdem Tourneys as of late; although I am competent at all games.I missed a lot of big draws this week and I lost my last $5 on a 22 outer open end straight draw, flush draw, with a pair.I consider myself fairly adament at reading other players, but I am also a person who relies heavily on odds and plays my big draws aggressively. My friend poker player just told me that it is better to play against these odds and outs than with them. He said I rely too much on odds and outs in my game.My Question to all you FCP members is to offer any suggestions and words of advice to what actions should be taken when going broke. It would really be helpful! Thanks!-Gus.

[TheCinciKid 0]

Uh yeah, you're friend is insane. You want to get your money in with the best hand. Always. Sorry you went bust. I'd suggest reading a few books before trying again. Maybe the Harrington on Hold'em series if you want to play tournaments.

[qyayqi 11]

if you averaged 20 per buy-in, that's about a 65 tourney downswing to go from 1300 to busto. i suggest that there may be one or several leaks in your game. it will be difficult for the better minds here to help you at this point-- you needed to be looking at your game and bringing concerns to light when you were down about 500, or 25 games into the downswing.compare some of your hand histories from your winning streaks to those of the current one where you were losing. perhaps you started playing a too-large range of hands when you were hot on hitting those draws.odds and outs are good. go back and make sure that you were calculating them correctly versus eyeballing an approximation with rose-coloured glasses.then... i guess you have to decide whether to reload or take a break to let go of the pain of 1300 to 0.may the ancient and nameless goddess of poker favour you.

[Gus_Herbert 0]

Yeah I was going to purchase The Harrington series with my FPPS eventually. I just acquired silverstar, so my FPPS really rack up and I get lots of free stuff, its nice.But I own and have read:Super SystemTheory of PokerAce on the RiverCaros Book of Poker TellsPerhaps I should read Harrington or some books pertaining to online play???But I have had success online in the past, A broad general claim is it's just such a different game because It's harder to bluff at times and people have a hard time getting away from starting hands.Thanks for the condolences. You can relate because well, your the cincinnatti Kid!-Gus

[Actuary 3]

play touneys within your roll.discount outs properlydon't over value implied oddsdon't undervalue reverse implied odds.post handscomment on other handsdiscuss and listen and commentget better.

[Gus_Herbert 0]

if you averaged 20 per buy-in, that's about a 65 tourney downswing to go from 1300 to busto. i suggest that there may be one or several leaks in your game. it will be difficult for the better minds here to help you at this point-- you needed to be looking at your game and bringing concerns to light when you were down about 500, or 25 games into the downswing.may the ancient and nameless goddess of poker favour you.

Your probably right. I should have stepped back here, maybe played some $5 tournements to analyse my game cheaply. Perhaps more self-analysis and review of hand histories really is a good idea. So I can see stupid moves I'm making, etc. Playing easier tournements and less buy in would reduce the pressure and give a moral boost to my game. Although I have the most fun playing for the most money.Thanks for the good advice. Cheers.-Gus

[BudBundy 0]

play touneys within your roll.discount outs properlydon't over value implied oddsdon't undervalue reverse implied odds.post handscomment on other handsdiscuss and listen and commentget better.

Can you explain reverse implied odds in a simple way please?

[Actuary 3]

Can you explain reverse implied odds in a simple way please?

- pot small- future bets to call potentially big- hand vulnerable (big potential for villain to outdraw you)- little chance to improve to best hand (if not already have best hand)- poor visibilityor, in other words, the cost of future bets relative to the current pot.most often a risk when above conditions are met

[Sluggo 0]

get better.

[JackDeuce 0]

Sometimes just step back and take a week or two off when it seems you're running bad. If it continues after that it might be time to take a closer look at your game.

[MasterLJ 0]

This post isn't helping since you are not being honest with yourself. For whatever reason, probably because it's painful, you aren't really posting how or why you went broke. You are avoiding it. Whether it's shame from telling us, or denial, a good start to learning to stay within your bankroll is to post what actually happened.

[iggymcfly 0]

I can see what you're getting at here MasterLJ, but I think it's a little harsh. It's perfectly possible that he was a break-evenish player that just lost 65 BI by running bad. I mean obviously if he was a great SnG player, it wouldn't have happened, but he didn't exactly coming in here trying to project that. He basically said that he thought he was doing something wrong and was trying to figure out what it was.OP, my advice would be to get HOH v2 pronto. It's basically the only poker book I've ever read where I've felt like I got a huge insight that I wouldn't have possibly figured out on my own. Required reading for NLHE tourney players of all stripes.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

I consider myself fairly adament at reading other players, but I am also a person who relies heavily on odds and plays my big draws aggressively. -Gus.

...apparently you are not fairly ADEPT at using the English LanguageSeriously though - when I went through a similar downsizing streak I had to do some pretty intense introspection. I replayed entire sessions in my head and realized that 80% of my problem was true variance - I was getting my money in the pot when I had the better hand. I'd have pocket pair over pocket pair (or worse) and get out drawn. Poop happens - das pokah baby. That accounted for the majority of my downsizing - but when honestly assessed, there was an additional 20% where I was tossing good money after bad. Not "tilt" exactly - but close to it. And 20% can be the difference between ultimately winning and losing.Finally, after taking time off to get my head on straight I found a game that based on previous experience I thought I could win. Just a low limit home game. After 4 or 5 hours of pure enjoyment - I was up about the slimmest margin possible. But psychologicaly I had broken my streak. Poker was fun again. Since then, I have been on a great extended heater.To blame your streak on the game changing or players not getting off their hands properly is not getting to the root of your problem. People are still winning at this game - just not you. You have to accept the possibility that YOU are the one not playing well.I was playing in a Live Cash game once and a guy who wasn't that great got all upset when he got called down by someone with nothing - just better nothing than he had. He got all indignant and whined: "You had no business even being in that hand - I was representing the Set!!!"

[mtdesmoines 3]

- pot small- future bets to call potentially big- hand vulnerable (big potential for villain to outdraw you)- little chance to improve to best hand (if not already have best hand)- poor visibilityor, in other words, the cost of future bets relative to the current pot.most often a risk when above conditions are met

IE: flopped sucker straight with a flush draw showing and lots of betting pressure.It's OK to dump it.

It's perfectly possible that he was a break-evenish player that just lost 65 BI by running bad.

I've "run bad" but never that bad.

[No_Neck 0]

IE: flopped sucker straight with a flush draw showing and lots of betting pressure.It's OK to dump it. I've "run bad" but never that bad.

65 buyins is a bunch.

[iggymcfly 0]

He did say he was playing a lot of MTTs lately. That would increase variance. I think I've seen BR management requirements before that suggested 100 buy-ins for MTTs, so obviously someone foresaw the possibility of losing that many buy-ins. Make it break-even SnG player and slight losing MTT player that's been running bad, and I can definitely see it. I do remember losing $1000 playing $11-$55 myself (I think that was the number) back in February or so while still having a long-term positive ROI, so that's not too far off. SnGs are almost as bad as LHE in terms of something that you can just lose at repeatedly due to luck.

[pkr_emprr 0]

IE: flopped sucker straight with a flush draw showing and lots of betting pressure.It's OK to dump it.

Not a good example. And its not OK to dump it -*usually* The situation matters, but in the situation its ok to dump it, it would have nothing to do with reverse implied odds.

[Actuary 3]

Not a good example. And its not OK to dump it -*usually* The situation matters, but in the situation its ok to dump it, it would have nothing to do with reverse implied odds.

I'd be curious to know why you think this.It seems to fit the definition of vulnerable hand, easily out drawn (or likely behind), with lots of action to call. If we assume the pot was small and we have a lot of chips left.Now, perhaps I got something wrong in reading: by "flush draw" showing, if we mean 3 of same suit or two of suit, that would make a difference. I presumed a flush may have already been made.

[chewybarber 0]

You're supposed to go broke.Keep having fun, if it stops being fun, stop playing. The number of people who actually make money at this game is so small, you may never meet one--oh, you'll meet thousands who claim to be winning players...In my opinion, if you go broke, and you have some play money--AND YOU'RE STILL HAVING FUN--then re-up and play on; otherwise, why keep killing yourself?

[Shimmering Wang 1]

I'm a pussy, so I've only been broke two or three times. But my best friend- the best poker player I know- has been broke upwards of 20 times. It's very profitable for me (staking grateful killer players = cashblingmoney). He used to take shots at games he could buy into once or twice with his entire roll."Dude, that guy sucks. I HAD to play. Look, I know that hand cost me 10 grand, but I KNEW the only hand he'd play like that is AK. I think I was like 55-45 there when it turned out he wasn't suited. He moved in behind for 9650 more. Easy call with fives."Happens to everyone.Wang

[Actuary 3]

You're supposed to go broke.The number of people who actually make money at this game is so small, you may never meet one--oh, you'll meet thousands who claim to be winning players...

it's more enjoyable to have a self-supporting habit though. Oddly, I win and practice anally retentive BR management*************shimmering wang > chicken salad sandwiches

[Shimmering Wang 1]

it's more enjoyable to have a self-supporting habit though. Oddly, I win and practice anally retentive BR management*************shimmering wang > chicken salad sandwiches

Sorry, chief, but I have to disagree. Booze> Chicken Salad Sammiches > Beyonce > Shimmering Wang > The Feeling You Got the First Time You Got a 1-Up in MarioWang

[Abbaddabba 0]

I cant tell if you're joking.If your friend only had 10 grand saved up from playing poker, something is wrong.Either he isnt as good as you think, or he's managed his money like a complete monkey.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

I cant tell if you're joking.If your friend only had 10 grand saved up from playing poker, something is wrong.Either he isnt as good as you think, or he's managed his money like a complete monkey.

I think he was playing like 500 NL both times this happened. He's got like 900K now, and probably couldn't go broke if he wanted to. The third time he took a shot, he played in a 25/50 NL game and won 22K after he lost about 15K on his last hand with 8hTh on a 7h9xJh when the board paired and JJ was good.He just didn't give a fuck. He didn't care about survival. He didn't really want to grind his way to a good living. I told him I'd always help him out no matter what, because I believed in him, so he just kept pushing until he got where he wanted to be. Now he plays a few hours a week and makes enough money to support himself.Also, he randomly flies to Vegas. I'll wake up in the morning, and see a note that says, "Derek: In Vegas for about a week. Keep your phone on, please? I left my mom's credit card on desk and don't have return flight. Buy a pizza on me!"The point is, he was willing to put his ENTIRE roll on the line for any advantage, because every dollar he won was worth more than every dollar he lost. (shrug) Wang

[Abbaddabba 0]

Seems like the fact that he's a nutjob is more likely the reason he's gone bust so many times.Not because it's inevitable.