"to Muck Or Not To Muck?"...need Help Guys...(pretty Long Rant)

[lenoph 0]

hey guys, need your opinions.last monday some friends and I went to the casino in Eagle Pass TX. we played 3-6 throughout the day and entered a $50 buy-in tourney later that evening. it was limt for the first 4 rounds (25-50, 50-100, 100-200, 200-500)- 15 min break- no-limit for the remainder of the tourney. (500-1000, 1000-2000, 2000-5000, 5000-10000) anyways the table i was at was mega tight (and quiet) so i decided at about the 4th hand to steal the blinds. i was 2nd to act and raised with 74o. everyone folded except the blinds. after the flop, check check, i bet. SB folds, BB tanks and calls. turn happens the same. same on the river. i hit nothing of course but this dude's really unsure about his hand. he finally calls i smile, rap the table and say "you got it" and muck. the dealer then asks me to turn over my hand. i think oh well, i was thinking wether or not to show the table my bad play. (it helped when i got KK the very next hand and no one believed me. ) we continue the game and begin talking about the rule. so the dude to the right of me trips and asked "wait a minute. What if he turned over the best hand?" the dealer says " he would've won." dude,"he mucked!" dealer, "everyone needs to turn their hand over after the river. that's the rules." now, we all trip. the dude says "but, that hand is dead! he mucked! when is a hand dead?" the dealer then goes on to explain "I can turn the cards over (instead of the player) and then they're dead, OR I can tap the deck (with the cards) then turn them over dead. either way all cards show." at that time the TD comes and splits our table. i think: that sucks we just had our first conversation at the table. oh well. now we're at new tables and the dude that was to my right is now... to my right. about 3 hands into the new table (blinds 200-500... wierd structure) 2nd to act, i look down at KQs and raise to 1000. cut -off and blinds call. flop- KQ7rainbow. check, check, i bet 500, cut off calls (yuck!) fold fold. turn- J. i bet 1000, cutoff calls. (good, no raise) river- 4. i bet 1000, cutoff calls. i say 2 pair and show. he sighs, and mucks. the dealer grabs the cards and starts to place them on the deck and some one says in spanish "what did he have?" the dealer with his hand still on the cards ON the deck. filps over AT. i'm reaching for the pot and he's pushing it to the mucker. now i'm tripping out. "wait a minute. that hand is dead!" (in every sense of the word.) it was mucked, it hit the board, AND it was ON THE DECK!!!i call the floor and start explaining what happened. then AT says (in spanish) "it was dumb of me, but you asked to see it." the dealer (seeing his out) says "yeah, you asked to see it." now i'm pissed. i tell the TD i could care less what he has when he mucks and i'm raking in the pot. (besides i respect a players choice to muck) i tell him that it's the players responsibility to play the cards, not the dealers. (you can't reward an idiot for mucking the nuts) he explains to the dealer that he needs to ask the player to turn over there hand, not do it himself...the straight wins...and then walks away. there's like 5 min before the break and now i'm down to @ 5000 versus @17k and the blinds are next. the dude to my right says, "told you, that's why i brought it up at the table. i knew this would happen." i think "forget it, this has to stop." so i dump my chips blind. (yes i'm super upset) so, i walk up to the TD and say "okay. explain this rule to me and how the player's and dealer's mistake is rewarded to the mucker?" HE CAN"T. he says it's in the rules "all cards must show after the river." i say " show me your rules" and he hands me a tournament rule sheet that sits by the cardplayer mags AND calls "Mrs. TD" (who is playing in the tourney) for back up.so i read the rules and there's nothing in there about showing all cards at the river. Mrs. TD comes up to me and says i'm sorry but the rule is what it is. i explain how the rule makes zero sense, and that taking "mucking" out of the game removes a bit of the skill factor in poker. it becomes a game of luck where the dealers could literally play the cards face up and see who gets lucky with the board. one rule (which Mr and Mrs TD continually point out) does explain that when heads up in an ALL IN situation, the dealer will have the players turn their cards over for the showdown. i explain how that rule does not apply to MY situation. she agrees and says the problem is that they've had problems with collusion and chip dumping, etc. she agrees the dealer made the mistake, but the TD has corrected him. i say "wait, so the dealer owes me $50." i go on and explain how i've heard horror stories from others @ the casino, and how i defend it, but that maybe i was wrong to do so. i tell it's cool, but i won't be coming back. i tell her i know one player lost to them is not a big deal. Mrs TD says "no EVERY player is important to us. i see you here quite a bit and like all the other players we value you playing here." she then says"how can we make this better? would you like your $50 back?" i say "if you'd like to come back?...yes." it seemed fair to me. i mean i won't play anymore tourneys here but it's a step foward. she says "let me see what i can do" 15 minutes pass and she comes to me and says "well, the problem is that 3 people, including the dealer say you asked to see the cards. because of that you risked being beat by the mucked cards. SO, i'm sorry no refund." 30% PERCENT of the table says i wanted to see his cards. what???? i tell her "of course they did. the guy who won the pot, his buddy and the dealer covering his mistake." NOT COOL!!! we discuss it a bit more, the National Indians Gaming Commission comes up, i ask for the dealer's name. (who is no where to be found) she refuses to give it to me, i bring up the TDA and so on and so on... so i go up to my buddy at the 3-6 and say "let's go dude, this sucks." and another guy says, "that was messed up! i was at that table and you never asked to see the cards. the dude mucked and the dealer had the cards on the deck. totally messed up." i ask "will you tell her that?" he says yes. now i go up to Mrs TD and tell her that some guy who i don't even know vouches for my side of the story and she says "but the dealer says you asked to see them, and if the dealer says it's green, it's green."ARGHHH... whatever... so now i'm trying to figure out the best way to fix this.i've considered the best approach is to bring them options to fix their rules or help better the casino poker room then just ignore it. i really want to go back, as it's the only casino that's accessible to us. (@ an hour drive)any suggestions? opinions?on a side note, anybody watch PPT this past wed when jimmy woods muck the best hand? (pair of 4's) at this casino he would won...

[FourFlusher 0]

I think you got scrarood, but, arguing with people with just enough authority to piss people off isn't going to work. If it wasn't your only option, you know what the answer would be, don't ever grace their felt again.What you could do is make an appointment with the manager, and discuss it in terms of helping the game rather than arguing your specific case.

[sixhands 0]

That blows, one way that you can get around this next time is by asking the dealer to kill the cards before he turns them over. Even though they were technically dead anyway, your "request" apparently has a lot of clout in this particular casino.One more thing dude, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE learn how to use paragraphs. I read the whole thing but it was tough to do.And I can tell you now, that you will get a couple of replies saying they didn't read it.Welcome.

[lenoph 0]

sorry about the read i was going as fast as i can during a break at work.i am considering meeting with someone of authority at the casino, but need to prepare some suggestions. any help?also, believe it or not i kept my cool. (tough as that was) and Mrs TD was actually nice about it. at least until the gaming comission was brought up, but can't blame her for that.

[quadaces 0]

That blows, one way that you can get around this next time is by asking the dealer to kill the cards before he turns them over. Even though they were technically dead anyway, your "request" apparently has a lot of clout in this particular casino.One more thing dude, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE learn how to use paragraphs. I read the whole thing but it was tough to do.And I can tell you now, that you will get a couple of replies saying they didn't read it.Welcome.

QFT Paragraphs would help!

[tobytobey 0]

any suggestions? opinions?

fire bomb.or play online.

[silkyjonson 1]

i skipped most of it, but usually the way it is at most card rooms is any called hand can be asked to be seen at the table, but if no one asks its mucked. If the player folds the dealer should tap the deck (kill the hand) and then can turn it over if requested. And if people asks but the player throws it into the muck its dead and cannot be retrieved.

[lenoph 0]

i agree silky.also to all, i fixed it.

[mtdesmoines 3]

OK, call me a prick, but ENGLISH ONLY at the table!!!

[lenoph 0]

true. i mean i speak spanish (Mx American) so it's not too bad for me BUT my buddy went back that wednesday and said 3 dealers were on a 3-6 scamming some poor dude who didn't speak spanish.now that's not cool.fish are fish, but it sucks when you speak a different language.

[cemo76 0]

THAt is BALONEY MAN!!!!!!!!!!You should have won that pot. THAT is BUll ****!Once a hand is mucked its OVER! Done with. You win He loses....100%...................NEVER GO BACK THERE IT IS BOG SH_T! What kind of customer service is that anyway? The dealer said so? You got screwed over!

[Billy 0]

Man, that is some bullshit and I was actually thinking of checking that casino out. Even the structure blows.Where you from man?

[hank213 1,823]

true. i mean i speak spanish (Mx American) so it's not too bad for me BUT my buddy went back that wednesday and said 3 dealers were on a 3-6 scamming some poor dude who didn't speak spanish.now that's not cool.fish are fish, but it sucks when you speak a different language.

fish are fish when they play like fish. not when some scumbag dealers and their buddies use a foreign language to rip them off, then they are considered marks. At the minimum I wouldn't play there until they clean up their act. I would seriously consider filing complaints with the gaming authorities in your state. Not just for your situation but bring the dealer collusion that your buddy witnessed to their attention as well. This type of activity is extremely bad for poker as whole and gives ammunition to all the anti-gaming activists out there.

[beans422 0]

O man, I miss Eagle Pass. Only casino in Texas and they can't even get the rules right. 3-6 is super soft though. I'd suggest making the drive to Louisiana instead of Eagle Pass for everyone in Texas.

[lenoph 0]

i'm in del rio.thanks guys for the suppport. now i'm really sad...i'll keep you all in on what happens... til then see ya

[pezeveng 207]

chip dumping is a huge problem at the small tourneys. I think mucking should not be allowed and all cards should be shown. At our home games whatever you call stands, so someone can't say oh you have a straight. If a guy says ace high ace high is what he has. Plus what kind of retard are you playing thats hits his str8 and still doesn't realize what was he looking for the ace. When is the insanity going to end with all these new players.

[simo_8ball 0]

chip dumping is a huge problem at the small tourneys. I think mucking should not be allowed and all cards should be shown. At our home games whatever you call stands, so someone can't say oh you have a straight. If a guy says ace high ace high is what he has. Plus what kind of retard are you playing thats hits his str8 and still doesn't realize what was he looking for the ace. When is the insanity going to end with all these new players.

I have a royal flush. Ship it.