Why A Pro Will Never Win The Big Enchilda (again)

[Spademan 94]

Ivey is the "Tiger Woods" of poker, but he's yet to prove himself as far as I'm concerned.

Staggeringly absurd.

[alexruimy 0]

Ivey StatsTJ StatsThey're close in many aspects. The problem, however, is going to be comparing them evenly. Back in TJ's day, there weren't nearly as many tourneys, but the fields weren't as large. TJ's definitely got great results, but so does Phil, and I do believe that Phil will surpass most if not all in the long run.That's just tourneys too. There's no denying Phil's success in cash games too. I'm not sure how to measure that success on any scale, nor am I cognizant of any of TJ's cash results.

[bbz_Ghost 0]

Staggeringly absurd.

Well, we're talking primarily about the ME, not just the WSOP and any of the other events in the WSOP, right? Has Ivey won the ME and I missed it?bb

[pong1092 0]

hey this post is NOT about Allenthe fact that Allen is the only recognizable pro left more or less solidifies my argumentit's about the inherent prestige of the title today versus what it used to be, pre-moneymakerif Allen wins it, great. he won't, but if he does, great. I'm not saying the player who wins won't be a good player, just that when you look at the big picture, there aren't *that* many goooood players in the "Main Event" that's all, and so when you win, no matter who you are, it means you had a lot of luck riding on your side--it's to the point where skill doesn't count for much

No. Okay there are two named pros left in this event that everyone who has been here a little bit has heard of Cunningham and Lisandro. I am not even counting Rizen but thats okay. 2/27=0.074 so 7.4% of the remainging players are known pros. There were 8,773 players accoding to cardplayer in the main event. Out of 8773 if you can name 7.4% of the players that are known pros then the pros didn't do to well. But you can't name 650 pros. The point is Its not all luck. There are pro's left who have a shot to win and that to see two pros this far in the tournament is actualy impressive since there are very few of them compared to internet qualifiers.

[Spademan 94]

Well, we're talking primarily about the ME, not just the WSOP and any of the other events in the WSOP, right? Has Ivey won the ME and I missed it?bb

I thought we were talking about players in general.If you're talking only about the ME, then it is not staggeringly absurd, just absurd.

[alexruimy 0]

Well, we're talking primarily about the ME, not just the WSOP and any of the other events in the WSOP, right? Has Ivey won the ME and I missed it?bb

The ME is not the defining event in poker. Not anymore, at least.

[Craftsy21 0]

Well, we're talking primarily about the ME, not just the WSOP and any of the other events in the WSOP, right? Has Ivey won the ME and I missed it?bb

No, but tournaments are a joke to most of these players. go check out phil ivey's bank account from playing the big game and tell me if he's proved himself. jackass.

[iggymcfly 0]

No. Okay there are two named pros left in this event that everyone who has been here a little bit has heard of Cunningham and Lisandro. I am not even counting Rizen but thats okay. 2/27=0.074 so 7.4% of the remainging players are known pros. There were 8,773 players accoding to cardplayer in the main event. Out of 8773 if you can name 7.4% of the players that are known pros then the pros didn't do to well. But you can't name 650 pros. The point is Its not all luck. There are pro's left who have a shot to win and that to see two pros this far in the tournament is actualy impressive since there are very few of them compared to internet qualifiers.

Don't forget Prahlad. I could have definitely named him, and if I was predicting who might win the ME, he might have even been my sleeper. He doesn't have the worldwide recognition, but he's one of the 100 or so players I'd recognize.

[bengy3 0]

Compare Ivey to someone like say, T.J. Cloutier. He's been around longer, played more poker than Ivey could dream of, won more tournaments and has more respect (I believe) of and the chops to back it up.How come no one looks at that anymore?Ivey is the "Tiger Woods" of poker, but he's yet to prove himself as far as I'm concerned. I hate using that Tiger Woods line, really, but it's how Ivey is perceived. Sure, he's a mean lean poker machine, but he's got a long way to go, as long as he doesn't burn out before he gets there.I don't want this to turn into an Ivey bash-off or comparison, I'm just stating my opinions about him. He can do it, of that I'm quite sure. The question is: will he back down when the time comes and not overplay at the crucial moment like he always seems to do?bbEdited to fix a booboo I made, I admit it.

Five bracelets by the age of 30, recognition from his peers as one of the, if not the, best player in the Big Game and winning $16 million off Andy Beal. Yeah, I'd say he has a lot to prove.

[Mikey Ravioli 0]

Given the choice between 12mil richer and lucky vs. out in 8567th place and good, I would take the 12mil. Besides, I would make better commercials then Raymer or Moneymaker.....In a field of over 10,000 luck has got to be a major factor. Any golfer can try to qualify for the US Open. A little luck never hurt anyone on the golf course but if you don't have the skills to go along with it, you ain't gonna be playing much less making the cut, much less winning.

[NoxKo 0]

The amount of ignorance in this thread and the board in general is becoming disappointing to say the least.Anyone who is stupid enough to knock Ivey because he hasn't won the ME doesn't have a clue about basic statistics and has to be a complete fish at a poker table.

[dms26 3]

Why are so many unknowns advancing while the pros are going down like flies?

Maybe because there are around 200 or so pro's and 8500 amatuers? Even if you were to say a pro is 5X as likely to win that would still only be once in about every 8 years.There are still 3 "known" players in the final 27, that's not too bad.

[missIdaho 1]

Don't hate me, but I agree with the OP. What was once a tournament for the greatest poker players in the world to come together play for the title, is now an amateur crap shoot. I would hardly call anyone who wins the ME, the "World Champion." It's takes much more than winning one tournament to earn that kind of respect.

[wylecoyote 0]

Guys there are 70,000 on pp a day.So 8500 playing for a world championship is not that big. Really it isn't. If anything the pros have an advantage because they can read players better. That is why DN had so much success. He stopped playing the cards, and started playing the people.Most of the people that were in the WSOP won their seats also. That means they won some sort of qualifier or event to get there. Some getting past a couple thousand just to get their seat.In my mind that qualifies them to play for the big enchilada. I would rather see someone qualify in than just hand over 10k and walk in. At least the qualifiers had to win something to get there.Anyway I would like to see main events for all of the games, 10,000 buy in.Then have the bracelet winners for those main events only go in for one final table of NLH for the Big enchilada bracelet.All of the other events would stop receiving bracelets and just receive trophy'sThats my .02 not that it will happen... lol lol

[bbz_Ghost 0]

The amount of ignorance in this thread and the board in general is becoming disappointing to say the least.Anyone who is stupid enough to knock Ivey because he hasn't won the ME doesn't have a clue about basic statistics and has to be a complete fish at a poker table.

My point was that so many people (including you, hell, even me at times) thinks Ivey can do it, so I'm wondering why he doesn't? Is it lack of skill? Hell no, that's obvious the man can play just looking at his history.To the other poster:Bank account means jack squat to me - look at Hachem and his one big win which puts him over Ivey for reported winnings - Ivey being a frequent player at the Bellagio big games obviously takes down pots that you won't find listed on the Hendon Mob's All Time list.Does that mean Hachem is a better player? Of course not, so why bother even opening your mouth and telling people "look at his bank account." Money in the bank doesn't mean much really. I could point at Moneymaker and you'd all know exactly what I'm talking about. Wonder how much he has left, actually.Anyway, I didn't mean to disparage the awesome power of Phil Ivey - he's got game, I'd never say he doesn't. I was being absurd to show something absurd: how people favor him so much in the WSOP and he typically can't make it to 1st in "The Big Enchilada" as this thread calls it, that's all.I hope he does make it someday, even with the hordes of non-pros and pros he'd have to fend off to do it.As far as being a fish, I make money playing poker. I started with $100 as a bankroll two years ago on Stars and I pulled that original $100 out a day after I deposited it and I've never put in another dime so far.Will I win a WSOP bracelet someday? Only if I enter.bb

[alexruimy 0]

My point was that so many people (including you, hell, even me at times) thinks Ivey can do it, so I'm wondering why he doesn't?

That's a good question, especially considering the fact that poker is 100% skill. Why can't the best in the world win it, eh?I won't rest until I find an answer.