What Would You Rather Know?

[shpaget 0]

Would you rather know your opponents' holdings, or what the board would look like?Theory of Poker talks about knowing your opponents' holdings and acting correctly accordingly, but something has to be said for knowing what the board will be at the end.(though knowing your final hand in a game like stud or draw would take some degree of clairvoyance as you'll also need to know what opponents are going to fold at what time and/or how many cards they will draw)For those who prefer to know what the board will be, does your answer change with the number of players? Does your answer change if you can only be told what the flop will be? Or flop/turn?So, do you like knowing what your opponent has, allowing you to make the correct mathematical decision on each street? And if you miss, you miss, knowing in the long run you'll come out ahead. Also ensures you'll never be bluffed, and gives you incredible freedom to bluff yourself. The downfall means you can be priced out of a drawing hand.Or, do you like knowing your final hand, eliminating any need to calculate pot odds for drawing hands, letting you pick and choose where you want to play, letting you play 83 when you know 88347 is coming (but not knowing if you're against 87). You'll always know when you make a hand, but, unless its the scn, never be sure it's the best hand.

[screech 0]

My first guess would be that it is better to know the board because 5 cards provide a lot more information than 2.Also, the TOP reference means you know how your opponents hand fits each street. Not that you know one or the other.

[kdogg 0]

For NL, I'd rather know my opponents' hole cards. For Limit, I'd rather know the board.

[Scott3705 0]

NL, i'd rather know opponents cards.Stud, I'd rather know the boards.LHE, it wouldn't matter if I saw their cards and the board, i'd still find a way to lose.

[Actuary 3]

My first guess would be that it is better to know the board because 5 cards provide a lot more information than 2.

are we playing heads up?Intuitively I say Opponents,I"ll see the board when they do anyway.pretty obvious.

[shpaget 0]

are we playing heads up?Intuitively I say Opponents,I"ll see the board when they do anyway.pretty obvious.

How is it obvious? I'm talking about seeing the board before your opponent does. ie. when you're dealt your two cards pf, you know what the board is going to look like after the river.It could be headsup, or against 2,3,4 or more opponents...and your answer may vary accordingly.

[MasterLJ 0]

are we playing heads up?Intuitively I say Opponents,I"ll see the board when they do anyway.pretty obvious.

QFT.If I can see all of my opponent's hole cards, I have no need to know the entire board before it's dealt since I will always be able to make +EV decisions and never bet when behind.

[myenemy 0]

It is pretty obvious. You'll know the board eventually anyway. Knowing your opponents cards always makes you a winner at showdown.

[Actuary 3]

How is it obvious?

see MasterLJ's response.It's like, I don't need to outrun that Bear, I just need to outrun my wife.think about it.

[shpaget 0]

It is pretty obvious. You'll know the board eventually anyway. Knowing your opponents cards always makes you a winner at showdown.

And if you don't get to showdown?eg. preflop you have JJ with $100 and buddy behind you has AA with $100.What do you do? Limp and HOPE his raise is still giving you the right odds AND hope if you do hit your Jack that you get all his chips to justify the pf call?...and if he raises to $25 you have to fold....or do you just fold right away? You can't raise.Your +EV decision is to fold here in many cases.But what if you knew the board was going to be J7432? Or AK7TQ? Then you really don't care much about your price pf.eg. you have the nut flush draw after the flop...you know buddy has TPTK...he overbets the pot, you have to fold where pot odds and implied odds don't price you in, because that's the +EV play.But if you knew the flush was coming, and that the board wouldn't pair, you can call any bet he makes.Hence, it is NOT obvious.Knowing your opponent's cards allows you to ALWAYS make the +EV play (assuming you are competent at math). It also ensures you'll never be bluffed, and allows you to bluff when you know your opponent has a better hand than you, but is weak, like bottom pair (provided he is able to fold). Knowing the final board allows you to make any call you want for any price because it will always be +EV, because you know your final hand - you simply have to evaluate whether or not your made hand is the best hand, and how to extract the most money out of your opponent. Imagine being able to call the 20% shot everytime it's coming, and folding it everytime it's not - blows EV out of the water.

see MasterLJ's response.It's like, I don't need to outrun that Bear, I just need to outrun my wife.think about it.

Wouldn't it be better if you knew there was gonna be a bear before going on the hike (or properly knowing how to deal with a bear) rather than simply outrunning the people you're with.When you do that, it means you need to go hiking with a different person every time, and you go through friends quickly that way.

[Actuary 3]

if I know opponents cards I will know where I stand 100% on each street.I can price him out, or suck him in.I'll know 60% of the board and I'l know all he knows about his hand.I'ts really not close.in my mind yet.

[Zach6668 513]

if I know opponents cards I will know where I stand 100% on each street.I can price him out, or suck him in.I'll know 60% of the board and I'l know all he knows about his hand.I'ts really not close.in my mind yet.

qft

[shpaget 0]

Something to consider....an example.You have AsQs.Villain has AhKc.Board is Kd7s8s.You are 36.67% to win the hand...just under 2:1.Pot is $400.Villain bets $400 all-in.You're 2:1 to call....the price is right.Do you make more money calling every time, which is the +EV play?Or by calling every time you know the flush comes and folding everytime it doesn't?Hell, even fold every time the flush comes but the board pairs, since you don't know if this guy has AK or KK. Even fold the times you see AQ or QQ coming.One way you make about $40 per hand.The other you make about $220, and that's if you call only when you know you have the stone cold nuts.One way you know exactly where you stand, but you are playing little edges...all positive, but each small.The other way you know exactly when you will hit your hand, and so you can call regardless of price, but you need to maintain deduction (or extreme tightness) to ensure your hand is good. And in fact, you can massage the pot quite nicely and let people call for what would normally be a good price, if the outcome was unknown.

[Actuary 3]

you can contrive examples sure.but only with a monster would knowing board be arguably betterKnowing where I stand in the present on each street when we both don't have monsters is more important as it occurs many more times.i'm doing a bad job of explaining.Too busy.

[SavageHenry 0]

id like to know my opponents hand i think in all games more than the board.completely off topic but i keep watching shpagets avatar hoping the poor fellow will finish whatever he typing before he kills himself lol.

[hotbacon 0]

Opponent's hand.I don't see how this could be close.

[shpaget 0]

you can contrive examples sure.but only with a monster would knowing board be arguably betterKnowing where I stand in the present on each street when we both don't have monsters is more important as it occurs many more times.i'm doing a bad job of explaining.Too busy.

No, you're not...I see your point, and my instinct says you're right (when I first made the post my first impression is to know the opponent's hands is better).I'm thinking things through and playing devil's advocate more than anything.

[sholden 0]

Something to consider....an example.You have AsQs.Villain has AhKc.Board is Kd7s8s.You are 36.67% to win the hand...just under 2:1.Pot is $400.Villain bets $400 all-in.You're 2:1 to call....the price is right.Do you make more money calling every time, which is the +EV play?

If it's a cash game you call, you can rebuy if you lose after all. If it's a tournament you fold since you can see your opponents cards you will have *way* better spots later.

Or by calling every time you know the flush comes and folding everytime it doesn't?Hell, even fold every time the flush comes but the board pairs, since you don't know if this guy has AK or KK. Even fold the times you see AQ or QQ coming.One way you make about $40 per hand.The other you make about $220, and that's if you call only when you know you have the stone cold nuts.One way you know exactly where you stand, but you are playing little edges...all positive, but each small.The other way you know exactly when you will hit your hand, and so you can call regardless of price, but you need to maintain deduction (or extreme tightness) to ensure your hand is good. And in fact, you can massage the pot quite nicely and let people call for what would normally be a good price, if the outcome was unknown.

You've got it completely backwards. If you can see your opponents cards (and he doesn't know that) you have as big an edge as you will ever need. You steal everytime he has crap, you resteal everytime he tries to steal. You fold whenever he raises with the goods. You know when he bluffs and can call if your ahead, or raise if you're behind. Etc, etc, etc.You don't need to wait for the nuts. You crush them by stealing everytime they have nothing (which is most of the time).

[Actuary 3]

I got a new friend.

[screech 0]

QFT.If I can see all of my opponent's hole cards, I have no need to know the entire board before it's dealt since I will always be able to make +EV decisions and never bet when behind.

So if you have A3 and he has QJ, you'll know exactly how to play the river? MAJIC!You'll know you have a preflop equity edge and that's it. Once the flop is out, you're equity will drastically change.Again, I would rather know 5 cards than 2 (especially in limit hold em). You have more information and can more accurately gauge the strength of your hand.OBVIOUSLY.

Something to consider....an example.You have AsQs.Villain has AhKc.Board is Kd7s8s.You are 36.67% to win the hand...just under 2:1.Pot is $400.Villain bets $400 all-in.You're 2:1 to call....the price is right.Do you make more money calling every time, which is the +EV play?Or by calling every time you know the flush comes and folding everytime it doesn't?Hell, even fold every time the flush comes but the board pairs, since you don't know if this guy has AK or KK. Even fold the times you see AQ or QQ coming.One way you make about $40 per hand.The other you make about $220, and that's if you call only when you know you have the stone cold nuts.One way you know exactly where you stand, but you are playing little edges...all positive, but each small.The other way you know exactly when you will hit your hand, and so you can call regardless of price, but you need to maintain deduction (or extreme tightness) to ensure your hand is good. And in fact, you can massage the pot quite nicely and let people call for what would normally be a good price, if the outcome was unknown.

OK. Obviously NL is a much easier if you see your opponents cards because its easy to get the money in pf when you know you have an edge. Limit is much easier to play if you know the board.

[Actuary 3]

Limit might be closer but I still want to know the opponent(s) cards.I want to know his exact hand.

[hotbacon 0]

OBVIOUSLY. :POK. Obviously NL is a much easier if you see your opponents cards because its easy to get the money in pf when you know you have an edge.

I don't think this is right.Knowing the board cards drastically affects the equity of any starting hand in hold 'em, moreso than knowing that you're a 2-1 fav. PF.However, knowing you have an edge and nkowing how your opponent will bet his hand are drastically different, and the latter is clearly more useful in a betting game.Most hands aren't goign to be shown down in the first place.You're picking up so much spare change knowing when your opponents will probably bet, call, or fold. Also, you have a HUGE edge on the big bet streets by knowing your oppoennts hand rather than what the river will be.I don't see how this is close.Also your 5:2 card analogy doesn't work.I think a more interesting question is which would be more useful assuming that your opponents knew that you knew

[screech 0]

I don't think this is right.Knowing the board cards drastically affects the equity of any starting hand in hold 'em, moreso than knowing that you're a 2-1 fav. PF.However, knowing you have an edge and nkowing how your opponent will bet his hand are drastically different, and the latter is clearly more useful in a betting game.Most hands aren't goign to be shown down in the first place.You're picking up so much spare change knowing when your opponents will probably bet, call, or fold. Also, you have a HUGE edge on the big bet streets by knowing your oppoennts hand rather than what the river will be.I don't see how this is close.Also your 5:2 card analogy doesn't work.I think a more interesting question is which would be more useful assuming that your opponents knew that you knew

The 5:2 analagy obviously isnt exact, but it does form the basis of my argument. Say you have AT and your opponent has 55 in limit hold em. He raises pf, you call because you are at an equity disadvantage. Fine, who cares. Obviously you make more money by calling vs raising on this round because no cards are out and you are at an equity disadvantage. Now the flop comes, and you have no idea what it is. Fine again. Your opponent bets, you call. Turn, he bets, you have to call. River he chekcs, you cannot value bet, so you check beihnd, or he bets, and you have to call. The only street you can optimize is pf. After that, you just call down postflop because there is a 45% chance you will have the best hand in the end. However, you cannot value bet or anything else, and therefore cannot really optimize any street.Now say we are playing a normal game of cards wher eyou can see your cards, but cannot see your opponents. He has 55, but we do not know this. Now, we may make a mistake pf and 3-bet his ***, but that is only a relatively small mistake. After that, it will be much easier to play the hand optimally postflop, we get value bets in when he shows weakness, we can pinpoint the absolute strength of our hand postflop by fitting it witht he board, and we can make a much better approximation of our relative strength vs our opponents hadn because we can see how our hand fits the board, and adjust to our opponents actions much better.Another analgy to the 5 cards to 2 cards one is that we are only really in the dark 1 betting round when we see the board (and its the small bets that go in), whereas we are in the dark 3 of the 4 betting rounds when we cna see only our opponents cards.And this is why nl is better when we can see our opponetns cards. We have the option to end all betting pf, so we can make sure we play pf only, and always take the best of it. WE can choose not to be in the dark for those last 3 rounds, and only play pf, when everything is perfectly clear.

Limit might be closer but I still want to know the opponent(s) cards.I want to know his exact hand.

So what do you do when you have Q8s and your opponent has A2o. Do you call pf, or do you fold because you arent getting the right odds to call down? Obviously you fold, because you will be in the dark on all the betting rounds, and calling down will lose money.But if you couldn't see your opponetns hole cards, you would clearly play Q8s vs a raise out of the BB. You are getting the odds to call vs a better than random hand and you have a hand tha tcan put pressure on your opponent with stragiht and flush draw potential.Assuming A2o raises the button, and you are in the BB, you make more money - a lot more money - in scenario number 2. Thats because in scenario #1 you are forced to fold because you are not getting the correct pot odds to call down to the river vs a random hand. So you forfeit your BB and lose 0.5BB.In scenario 2, you call pf because it is a profitable call. You will do better than lose 0.5BB with your call, so scenario 2 is advantageous.This is a specific example, I realize that, but its a prety good indicator of why it is better to play limit hold em as is, than to see your opponents cards only.On a side note, this is why very good handreaders destroy NL for a much better rate than they ever could at limit. It also goes to show the big differences between NL and limit (limit being more of a multi-street game).Interesting discussion. Very good trhead.

[mkeller3086 0]

see MasterLJ's response.It's like, I don't need to outrun that Bear, I just need to outrun my wife.think about it.

this is the best laugh i've had today

[screech 0]

see MasterLJ's response.It's like, I don't need to outrun that Bear, I just need to outrun my wife.think about it.

It's like I don't need to make an analagy that makes sense, I just need to make them laugh.