Who's A Hall Of Famer?

[TB17 0]

I wanted to bump this, and I know this is an active players thread, but what do you think about Edgar Martinez?

[sleuthis 0]

I disagree with putting any reliever into the HOF until Goose Gossage gets his rightful place in there.He defined the position of close and should absolutely be in the HOF.

[timwakefield 68]

I wanted to bump this, and I know this is an active players thread, but what do you think about Edgar Martinez?

Edgar's numbers aren't quite good enough IMO.

[greatwhite 0]

I disagree with putting any reliever into the HOF until Goose Gossage gets his rightful place in there.He defined the position of close and should absolutely be in the HOF.

What about Rivera?

[aadams_22 3]

What about Rivera?

and Lee Smith

[greatwhite 0]

and Lee Smith

Well, Gossage was better than Smith. Both deserve the Hall of Fame though.

[Longshanks 0]

anyone that doesent put frank thomas in the hall is too young, i hopethomas is a LOCK, he dominated the mid 90's when the ball wasent quite juiced yetand piazza is a lock as well

[wsox8 10]

anyone that doesent put frank thomas in the hall is too young, i hopethomas is a LOCK, he dominated the mid 90's when the ball wasent quite juiced yetand piazza is a lock as well

I sure think Thomas is a lock. The hall of fame discussion went on a lot around here when he was struggling and I know many columnists and writers said that it was close but it probably wouldn't make the hall. I certainly hope he does and think he will.

[MDXS 0]

I'm taking the Jeter is not the worst defensive shortstop in the league stance..... Since Arod has come to the Yankees Jeter has been an above average shortstop. If you guys want to say his defense is overrated that's one thing.....Pretty much everyone on the Yanks is worse in their position than Jeter is at his. Out of curiosity what are you using to determine Jeter's range anyways?

Not to beat a dead horse, but he's returning to suckitude. So much for being an above average defender in the ARod era. It's from a Yankees site, so don't jump on me for a Sox bias or whatever (though I will direct your attention to who's first).These numbers are based on Zone Ratings. Since 10 runs ~ win, we see that playing Jeter in the field is costing the Yankees between 1 and 2 games this year.You say that most of the Yankees are worse at their position than Jeter. I'll check that out.Giambi - worst 1B in the league. Phillips - fairly good 1B...too bad he doesn't hit like GiambiCano - middle of the pack, thus better than JeterARod - middle of the pack; better than Jeter (and imagine if he played short! Also, Mike Lowell's first in the AL. Surprisingly, Chavez is near the bottom).Posada - below average, but not as bad as Jeter (catching numbers aren't based on zone rating).Damon - average, better than JeterMatsui - injured, but when he was playing, was near the bottom of the league, but costing his team far less runs than Jeter (not surprising due to shortstop's importance)Williams - hasn't played enough innings to really qualify, but he's the only guy other than Giambi worse at his position than Jeter.From the site (click to see all this for yourself): "Take heart Derek Jeter fans. There are three AL SS who are worse defensively."

[TMoneyBags 0]

Might as dig up this thread instead of posting in a completely unrelated thread about Jeff Bagwell retiring. I only have one thing to say on the Hall of Fame ballot. Vote In Blyleven!!

[aadams_22 3]

I only have one thing to say on the Hall of Fame ballot. Vote In Blyleven!!

can't argue with that, although there are other players that deserve to be in before Bert

[MDXS 0]

Might as dig up this thread instead of posting in a completely unrelated thread about Jeff Bagwell retiring. I only have one thing to say on the Hall of Fame ballot. Vote In Blyleven!!

Blyleven should get in. I'd take him before Rice. I might take Dwight Evans before Rice.

[digitalmonkey 929]

I came across this thread again while searching for a discussion on Sabrmetrics.How's Jeter's defense this season so far?

[Janfor99 0]

<---------------Sox fan, card carrying member of the "I hate the Yankees" club, However..........That being said, WOW Jeter is an amazing all around baseball player and has been key to the Yankees winning all those titles in his era ( I forget exact #). I think he's a gem and although I've seen him make clutch play/hits vs Sox for years now (ugh) I have nothing but respect for him. No way he won't be a 1st ballot HOF'er. There is more to what makes a Hall of Famer than pure stats alone.

[GeneralGeeWhiz 0]

Just MHO, but these guys should really be in

[aadams_22 3]

Just MHO, but these guys should really be in

All three were extremely good players, but none of them would be considered great. There are other players that are also in the "extremely good" category that deserve to be in the Hall of Fame before those three...see Mark Grace and Andres Galaragga as two examples.

[digitalmonkey 929]

All three were extremely good players, but none of them would be considered great. There are other players that are also in the "extremely good" category that deserve to be in the Hall of Fame before those three...see Mark Grace and Andres Galaragga as two examples.

I concur.

[greatwhite 0]

Smoltz, Biggio, Pudge, and Jeter are making it. I think Vizquel might too.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Smoltz, Biggio, Pudge, and Jeter are making it. I think Vizquel might too.

Probably, Yes, Probably, Yes and Probably.

[aadams_22 3]

Vizquel is a lock IMO, his offensive and defensive numbers are comparable to Ozzie Smith's and actually has a higher career fielding pct. than Ozzie.

[Solodell 0]

Vizquel is a lock IMO, his offensive and defensive numbers are comparable to Ozzie Smith's and actually has a higher career fielding pct. than Ozzie.

If Ozzie played today (i.e. his career began after 1990) would he be a hall of famer? I'm not convinced he would. Not saying he wouldn't deserve it, but don't think he would've received quite the accolades he did. I suppose Vizquel might be the litmus test for that.

[byaaatch 0]

Probably, Yes, Probably, Yes and Probably.

probably for Smoltz? I will say I am a braves fan it is tough with him being in the pen for all of those years and missing starting stats. But he was a great starter and one dominant closer. I was too young to remember eck as a starter but smoltz IMO I think smoltz should be in there before glavine.also I do think vizquel is a hall of famer. His fielding is just crazy. Possibly the best I have seen since the early 80's

[code1390 0]

Bert Blyleven!

[mrdannyg 274]

Vizquel is a lock IMO, his offensive and defensive numbers are comparable to Ozzie Smith's and actually has a higher career fielding pct. than Ozzie.

Can someone (with a BP subscription?) dig up Vizquel's career numbers, preferably compared to Ozzie and a few others? I was reading something the other day that implied that both Vizquel's best seasons were not as good as Ozzie's, and with his recent decline, his career numbers barely comparable.Help?

[MDXS 0]

Can someone (with a BP subscription?) dig up Vizquel's career numbers, preferably compared to Ozzie and a few others? I was reading something the other day that implied that both Vizquel's best seasons were not as good as Ozzie's, and with his recent decline, his career numbers barely comparable.Help?

All right, here we go. I don't have a BP subscription, but I'll give my thoughts.Ozzie Smith was a much better player than Omar Vizquel. They are comparable in many ways, but Ozzie comes out ahead.Both are dynamite fielders. They are historically good at perhaps the most important defensive position. As good as Vizquel is/was, Smith was better. BP has Smith's fielding runs above average at 287. Vizquel "only" 122. They have Smith at +11 runs per 100 games; Vizquel at +4. Baseball reference lists Smith's range factor at 5.03 for his career vs. a league average of 4.10. Making nearly 1 extra play at shortstop more than his peers per game is pretty huge. Vizquel is at 4.40 vs. 4.11. Still very good, but he never even had a season where he made 5 plays a game. Smith did it 10 times, topping out at 5.86, which is so sick I have trouble wrapping my head around it.Vizquel does lead in fielding percentage .984 to .978. If we break this down though, it Vizquel makes 1000 plays, he will make 16 errors. Smith will make 1143 plays and 25 errors. I'll gladly trade 9 more errors if it gets me all those extra outs. Another note is that fielding percentage for whatever reason was lower in Smith's day. In fact, both Vizquel and Smith are/were .012 above the league average in shortstop fielding percentage...Vizquel .984 to .972 and Smith .978 to .966. For offense they were decent, but not spectacular. Here are their lines for their careersSmith: .262/.337/.328Vizquel: .274/.340/.358Pretty poor, but when you field like those guys did, you're helping the team a lot. Vizquel appears to be ahead, but when you consider the contexts of when they played, you have to give a slight edge to Smith. Vizquel's peers were shortstops like Rodriguez, Jeter, Garciaparra, and Tejada. The only shortstop hitting like that in Smith's time was Ripken. Adjusting for the era when they played, Smith leads OPS+ 87 to 84.Of course, that isn't the only part of the offensive game. These guys are speedy, but Smith much more so. Vizquel stole 370 bases, while getting caught 149 times. He had a success rate of 71%, which is on the low side and on the whole probably comes to little benefit. Meanwhile, Smith stole 580 bases while only getting caught 148 times. Basically, Smith is Vizquel plus 210 steals and got caught one less time. This is a pretty huge disparity between the two. When you factor in baserunning, Smith leads Vizquel in EQA .263 to .258. For those unfamiliar with EQA, it's normalized so .260 represents an average hitter.When you put the whole thing together, Smith out WARPs (WARP3 here) Vizquel 138.5 to 107.3. I feel this is a huge difference and speaks to how good Ozzie Smith was.The final nail in the coffin for me is how they were perceived when playing. Smith was clearly the best shortstop in the NL for most of his career. Along with all the gold gloves, he was an All-Star 15 times. Vizquel only three times....and one of those times was when Hargrove took him over Nomar Garciaparra...the year when Nomar finished 2nd in MVP voting. Smith got MVP votes 6 times, including a second place finish. Vizquel only one, and he come in 16th. Was there ever a time when Vizquel was the best shortstop in the AL? Second best? Third? By WARP, Smith's best seasons were better than Vizquel's. Top 5 seasons:Smith 11.7, 10.8, 9.9, 9.9, 9.8 (with a handful more 7's and 8's. For comparison, Morneau won the MVP with an 8.8 last year.)Vizquel 8.2, 7.7, 7.5, 6.9, 6.7 Smith's peak was way, way higher and longer than Vizquel's. Really, taking it all in, while it's tempting to compare the two, Ozzie was on a much different level.Now this all doesn't mean that Vizquel's not a Hall of Famer, but he wouldn't get my vote. He's a modern day Mazeroski, who I don't think belongs in the Hall. Blyleven on the other hand....god. How do you keep that guy out?EDIT: Cleaned up some poor writing and added some more detail.