farha vs. greenstein aa vs. kk preflop

[princeof56k 0]

Calling an all-in with KK and the opponent turning over AA is not incorrect.Folding KK to an all-in and the opponent turns over QQ is a massive error.The reasons should be obvious.

[brando 0]

Hey Koop, since you and DD are on the same side of the argument maybe you can explain to him his faulty logic on Point 3 where he was OWNED!

I haven't been on his side the whole time....I really don't know what you're referring to. What was it?

I'll help ya Koop.He used a tournament situation where Daniel layed KK down preflop to QQ--misquoted him as saying that "it was the correct play to lay KK down there because he had QQ."And I said, "Don't lay KK down preflop in a cash game."That's all ya need.

Koop, appearantly he doesn't understand what he wrote. I posted it just above this.

[KowboyKoop 0]

Um, yeah, I do think it's still clear cut.But, if you could read, you'd know that I said laying it down in tournaments is more correct than laying it down in a cash game.Don't come at me with, "A pro said he thought KK was the correct laydown because the guy flipped over QQ"One, you're completely tearing up what he said--that he thought more times than not people have AA in that situation.Two, he didn't say it was the correct laydown even though his opponent had QQ.Three, HOW THE censored CAN IT BE THE CORRECT LAYDOWN IF HIS OPPONENT HAD QQ AND HE HAD KK? HOW CAN IT BE CORRECT TO LAY DOWN A HAND WHERE YOU ARE 82% TO WIN?Stop.Seriously.You're not looking real bright, here.

Ok then how about this. Using your logic you should never fold KK. So let's say we're playing a cash game and someone goes all in, you call with KK and they end up having AA.HOW THE censored CAN IT BE THE CORRECT CALL IF HIS OPPONENT HAD AA AND YOU HAD KK? HOW CAN IT BE CORRECT TO CALL A HAND WHERE YOU ARE 82% TO LOSE?Understand how that statement is wrong now?Thanks.

All of this is results oriented poker and really has nothing to do with the real debate. Folding KK preflop against an unknown hand is wrong. If you know your opponent has AA, then of course it would be right to fold, and if you knew he had QQ, then you know it would be wrong to fold. This isn't about making the correct play every single individual time based on the results of each individual hand, it is about making the correct play in the long run, which would be never folding KK preflop.

[brando 0]

Um, yeah, I do think it's still clear cut.But, if you could read, you'd know that I said laying it down in tournaments is more correct than laying it down in a cash game.Don't come at me with, "A pro said he thought KK was the correct laydown because the guy flipped over QQ"One, you're completely tearing up what he said--that he thought more times than not people have AA in that situation.Two, he didn't say it was the correct laydown even though his opponent had QQ.Three, HOW THE censored CAN IT BE THE CORRECT LAYDOWN IF HIS OPPONENT HAD QQ AND HE HAD KK? HOW CAN IT BE CORRECT TO LAY DOWN A HAND WHERE YOU ARE 82% TO WIN?Stop.Seriously.You're not looking real bright, here.

Ok then how about this. Using your logic you should never fold KK. So let's say we're playing a cash game and someone goes all in, you call with KK and they end up having AA.HOW THE censored CAN IT BE THE CORRECT CALL IF HIS OPPONENT HAD AA AND YOU HAD KK? HOW CAN IT BE CORRECT TO CALL A HAND WHERE YOU ARE 82% TO LOSE?Understand how that statement is wrong now?Thanks.

All of this is results oriented poker and really has nothing to do with the real debate. Folding KK preflop against an unknown hand is wrong. If you know your opponent has AA, then of course it would be right to fold, and if you knew he had QQ, then you know it would be wrong to fold. This isn't about making the correct play every single individual time based on the results of each individual hand, it is about making the correct play in the long run, which would be never folding KK preflop.

Correct and I agree with you. I kinda feel like you now, I never weighed in on the discussion of if you should fold KK pre flop or not. I did however refute his point 3 which is clearly wrong.

[RodReynolds 87]

edit edit

[GWCGWC 83]

Blah, blah blah..Don't fold KK preflop.Seriously.

I didn't read any further. If the next 3 pages are players saying they will lay down KK preflop without a 95% certain read, then those players are mistaken.There are so few execeptions to the statement,"don't fold KK preflop," that there shouldn't even be a debate.I hope some of the better cash game players have spoken up here to silence the people who think they can fold KK preflop.

[lister14 0]

Blah, blah blah..Don't fold KK preflop.Seriously.

I didn't read any further. If the next 3 pages are players saying they will lay down KK preflop without a 95% certain read, then those players are mistaken.There are so few execeptions to the statement,"don't fold KK preflop," that there shouldn't even be a debate.I hope some of the better cash game players have spoken up here to silence the people who think they can fold KK preflop.

u just cant fold kk pf in any cash game. and quite quite seldom in any tourn.

[FishtankHank 0]

Dude I've KK preflop plenty of times, and YES IN CASH GAMES but I was usually drunk and got distracted by more beer and/or liquor.

[FishtankHank 0]

Dude I've KK preflop plenty of times, and YES IN CASH GAMES but I was usually drunk and got distracted by more beer and/or liquor.

Yea my post sucks.

[Scott3705 0]

Can some one please explain to me why it would be alright to fold KK preflop and not in a cash game? I never understood why people say it and i ultimately feel that people just like to say it.A deep stack cash game will take a lot of betting and with that betting more information. In tournaments which are usually played pretty short stacked, how could you pick up enough information from the limited amount of betting it will take to get the chips in the middle. (Only thing I could think of is if you're close to the bubble, but I still don't like that for a reason). It just seems to me that folding KK preflop in a cash game, you would be right more often than in a tournament.

[Jordan 1]

fold in tourneys cause you have "x" amount of chips. you can't reload.cash game you can reloadl. therefore you can go broke with KK vs AA one in twenty-two times and be alirght, cause if you are playing within a bankroll losing one buy in, in one hand, with the second best possible hand shouldn't really matter.I'm not sure if I have folded KK in a cash game or not. can't really remember. don't really care...cuz it's two point five years for me and it really doesn't matter.in a cash game, playing within your bankroll....i dont really see why you would fold KK unless something like this happened.you raise KK, call, raise, re-re-raise, re-re-reiasie, re-re-re-aise...etc...but that's hardly ever happening and i'm a douche.point is...if you fold KK in a cash game, who the f cares. it's one hand. poker in't about one hand. I don't care if you are right or wrong...it's so pointless to argue this it's rediculous....but you shouldnt' fold KK...but if you do...and are right, who cares....ppl that care are people that a) dont play often B) dont play within a bankroll c) scared money.apathy is great in poker.- Jordan

[disorderlyDj 0]

Dan harrington even said in his book that he isnt even savy enough to lay kings even if he thinks his opp has aces.

[Guest]

oops

[iggymcfly 0]

DrawingDeadinDM, I usually respect your views on NL Hold 'Em a lot and I consider you one of the very best posters on this forum. However, you're being an assh0le here and you're making statements that make no sense. If you have $20,000 in a 1/2 NL cash game and a tight opponent puts you all-in after you've reraised him, you'd be stupid to call and you'd give up tons of equity by making a huge theoretical mistake.Now you say that you can recover this loss by coming over the top of him and making him lay down big hands. Well, let's look at this situation. Let's say that every time your opponent raises to $10 PF and it's only the two of you in the hand, you reraise to $50 regardless of your cards. He folds every hand except AA which he reraises with and you only call the reraise with KK or AA. Let's give him an initial raising range of AA-99, AK, and AQs. That's 56 possibilities, only 6 of which are AA. That means that 50 times out of 56 or 89.286% of the time, he folds and you win $10. Now when he does have AA and he reraises, you'll fold and he'll win $50 219 times out of 221 or 10.617% of the time altogether. Obviously, when you both have AA, you will win an even percentage of the time and split the vast majority so that can be negated. Now we're left with the one case where you have KK and he has AA which happens 6 times in 12,376 or .048% of the time. In this case, you lose $20,000 - .18*$40,000 = $12,800.Now, your total equity here is $10*.89286 - $50 * .10617 - $12,800 * .00048= $8.93 - $5.31 - $6.14 = -$2.52 per hand.The fact that your opponent was playing ridiculously weak-tight and folding KK against your range of 230-AA was still not as big of a mistake as your calling the all-in with KK against AA. Now obviously, these stacks are ridiculously deep and the opponent is ridiculously weak-tight, but the point stands. Depending on how deep the stacks are, there comes a point where it's fundamentally wrong to call an all-in with KK. It depends on your read of your opponent and the pot odds you're offered just like every other decision in poker. In an average cash game where the stacks are somewhere between 50 bb and 200 bb, this situation never comes up, so the practical rule "never fold KK in a cash game" applies. However, as the stacks get larger and larger, it may well be correct depending on how your opponent is playing. Therefore, repeatedly jamming your stupid rule in everyone's face like it was handed down to you from God is petty and counterproductive.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

DrawingDeadinDM, I usually respect your views on NL Hold 'Em a lot and I consider you one of the very best posters on this forum. However, you're being an assh0le here and you're making statements that make no sense. --Cut--Therefore, repeatedly jamming your stupid rule in everyone's face like it was handed down to you from God is petty and counterproductive.

Good post.You're probably right. Under the most absurd and contrived circumstances I might be persuaded to lay down KK preflop--but I deal in reality. I can think of NO realistic situation that would arrive in a cash game that would lead me to lay down KK preflop.As for me being an asshole and counter productive--that's just fucking tough. I think the first 502 times we've discussed this exact same fucking topic I had the patience to deal with it in a rather patient tone--the next 243 times though, it gets old. I can't hardly remember the last decent discussion that went on in this forum--and this certainly wasn't the thread that was going to have that happen. I'm sorry if my patience with this forum is now more quickly growing worn and ragged with the complete idiocy that's taken a choke hold on it. If you want to talk poker theory, we'll talk poker theory. If you want to talk about some convoluded state of affairs that would lead to me laying down KK preflop--then I'm sorry; I don't have the patience.The fact that I said, "Don't fold it in a cash game," and then people threw all these tourney related ideas at me--that tells me that people as a whole in this forum can't not have an effective and decent discussion/debate on the virtues of folding this preflop--they don't even understand the context in which the thread was created.I think I've added a lot to this forum in the past and for it to be in the state it is, is kind of disgusting and disheartening to me. So, again, sorry I don't have the patience to sit here and explain my viewpoint thoroughly for the umpteenth fucking time. This forum is choking on it's feel-good, hand-holding kumbyah nature and I don't feel the need to be a part of that--same reason Smash left. I can't tell someone they're way off base without being called an asshole.Anyway, good post. See ya on the flip side.

[GWCGWC 83]

I think I've added a lot to this forum in the past and for it to be in the state it is, is kind of disgusting and disheartening to me.

Sometimes you want to go where everybody knows your name,And their always glad you came........You know where to find this. :wink:

[Actuary 3]

DrawingDeadInDM,keep the faith!some of you embarrass yourselves.

[Actuary 3]

no poster here is "good enough" to fold KK preflopNo one here can "read" that well.shut up, and don't fold KK in a non- Bubble ITM/Satellite situation.you just sound gay repeating that garbage "good players.. blah blah...

{I made a correct read}

lucky read.I make bad plays all the time with "correct reads"

[cu in 4years Dan 1]

1. Check the poker on TV forum--this has been discussed ad nauseum.2. Farha didn't call, he pushed. He raised, Greenstein re-raised, Farha pushed, Greenstein called. 3. Don't fold KK preflop.

no.3 is not true, i have had hands where i layed down KK and QQ preflop againt a player and he showed the aces both times (much to my delight)

[KowboyKoop 0]

1. Check the poker on TV forum--this has been discussed ad nauseum.2. Farha didn't call, he pushed. He raised, Greenstein re-raised, Farha pushed, Greenstein called. 3. Don't fold KK preflop.

no.3 is not true, i have had hands where i layed down KK and QQ preflop againt a player and he showed the aces both times (much to my delight)

Oh f*ck....here we go.Folding KK preflop is a bad play. Discuss?

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

1. Check the poker on TV forum--this has been discussed ad nauseum.2. Farha didn't call, he pushed. He raised, Greenstein re-raised, Farha pushed, Greenstein called. 3. Don't fold KK preflop.

no.3 is not true, i have had hands where i layed down KK and QQ preflop againt a player and he showed the aces both times (much to my delight)

You're a good gueser.Go play roulette.

[Actuary 3]

one time, I folded QQ preflop after 2 limpers because one guy always limp-reraises with AA, so I figured he had AA this time.I was right.good fold huh?

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

one time, I folded QQ preflop after 2 limpers because one guy always limp-reraises with AA, so I figured he had AA this time.I was right.good fold huh?

That's why you're the king of LHE strat.

[KTW 0]

I have not read the posts but Farha is a "gambler" and went for it. He said right after his call " You have Aces don't you" or close to that. The man likes to gamble. He was willing to risk his roll. I like to play a Max NL limit of $5/$10 NL. I am willing to risk $1,000 in 1 hand. I have played higher but I find $5/$10 low enough for risk and there are still players who play that high who should be playing Go Fish or Checkers or something and not poker, so it's ok.

[ksean9999 0]

here's the thing. when you hold KK pre-flop, approx. 1 out of 20 times, one of your opponents will hold AA.thus theoretically, you should be folding your KK 1 out of 20 times against a single opponent at a full table.unfortunately, it's almost impossible to be accurate enough in our assessment of our opponent's possible holdings to make this a +ev play, although statistically it is the correct play 5% ofthe time which actually equates to quite a few KK laydowns over the course of a career.however, as many are saying that you should NEVER laydown KK pre-flop, some situations would disagree....for example - against multiple opponents, KK becomes a "DRAWING HAND."even though it's possible that many of your opponents hold an ace and therefore, each other's "outs," there will be many situations where you just don't want to "draw." the average winning hand in poker is two pair and like i said, in a multi-way pot, your ONE pair of kings becomes a drawing hand that will likely need to improve to win the pot.and although it is difficult to put your opponent on AA, it is not so crazy to assume your opponent has aq,ak or even aj or ANY ace for that matter which would make you a favorite but if your opponent hit's an ace (which will happen almost a third of the time or something like that) you're done. there may be certain situations where you want to avoid this risk.when people say NEVER lay down KK, i say "why not?"i mean almost never is not never.poker is about situational playit's easy to oversimplify but sometimes you gotta take your game to the next level and make a great play if you want to win.