making the big call

[MrJones 0]

"If one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects. Not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Donkeys. If you wish to be a complete and wise card player, you must embrace a larger view of the Hand."ANTES/BLINDSjiggar posts blind ($10), ImurderU posts blind ($20).PRE-FLOPRoscoeL calls $20, T-Dot-Poker calls $20, bonnye folds, jiggar calls $10, ImurderU checks.FLOP [board cards 2H,7D,10C ]jiggar checks, ImurderU checks, RoscoeL checks, T-Dot-Poker bets $20, jiggar folds, ImurderU bets $40, RoscoeL calls $40, T-Dot-Poker folds.TURN [board cards 2H,7D,10C,AS ]ImurderU bets $75, RoscoeL calls $75.RIVER [board cards 2H,7D,10C,AS,KH ]ImurderU bets $200, RoscoeL calls $200.SHOWDOWNImurderU shows [ 5H,3S ]RoscoeL shows [ 8S,8C ]RoscoeL wins $727.What how did he call with 88? Well if you look at the patterns of betting and the players considered. Tbot = donkey, ImurderU = decent player but will bluff. Then you look at the betting on the flop. T-Dot bets $20, and ImurderU minimum raises. This immediately set off alarm bells in head to be 89 or a stone cold bluff so I call it too, and T-Dot folds. $75 on the turn from ImurderU when I could easily have an ace? What's he playing at? Call. $200 on the river!? Easy call. He would never min. raise with any decent hand on that flop, and continue to bet hard when the overs came, I was certain it was a stone cold bluff. That shows how one mistep or variance in a betting pattern can trigger alarms in a good players head.ANTES/BLINDS123dog1 posts blind ($10), jiggar posts blind ($20).PRE-FLOPRoscoeL bets $60, banglo calls $60, B_O_K_E folds, 123dog1 bets $121, jiggar calls $111, RoscoeL calls $71, banglo calls $71.FLOP [board cards KD,QH,7D ]123dog1 checks, jiggar checks, RoscoeL checks, banglo checks.TURN [board cards KD,QH,7D,4S ]123dog1 bets $180, jiggar folds, RoscoeL calls $180, banglo folds.RIVER [board cards KD,QH,7D,4S,3C ]123dog1 bets $352, RoscoeL calls $352.SHOWDOWN123dog1 shows [ 4D,AC ]RoscoeL shows [ 8S,8D ]RoscoeL wins $1,585.On this one, 123dog is a donkey. So what I did is raise my 88 UTG. Of course 123dog reraises like he has been doing all day long. He takes the lead preflop then gives it away on the flop, huge donkey. So is Jiggar to btw, flat call a reraise preflop, but anyways. checkcheckcheckcheck on a flop I obviously hated. then the 4 shows. 123dog bets $180. I basically knew this was complete bullshit. Would he check AK, AQ on that flop? Never. So I go ahead and call it. He reraised so often preflop KK and QQ weren't even likely in slightest. In fact, I thought of reraising his reraise preflop. Anyways I just called hoping to set up and break him. My only concern really on the turn was 444, but it's no likely. Then he bets $352, which I'm not sure but I think evened out his stack at the time. Another tell. And I called that as well fairly confident he was beat.I hope this shows something that sometimes automatic laydowns are not so automatic if you take into account literally every aspect of the hand, and analyze it, with a clock in online play its a little more difficult but I did use a bit of the clock each time to analyze and it made me a nice chunk of change.

[Mike Patton 0]

very good point with the evened out his stack thing.its a huge tell.good post

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

#2 is the better play of the two in my opinion. 4 players go to the flop in a raised pot and none apparently think enough to represent the K or the Q, heh. Though it just turned out to be a busted flush draw, I think it's a better call just for the simple fact that most times you're giving someone credit for having a K or Q in a raised pot.#1 just wreaks of .10/.25 play. I was wondering what you were limping UTG with, but it makes sense. Dot's Min-bet into a pot of any size is a terrible play no matter what, but then to fold to a MIN RAISE is even worse getting like, 7-1 on your money. I'm likely putting him on some kind of draw as well, as a big hand will raise substantially with one player behind and facing a bet. Interesting post though.

[PimpRock 0]

If you weere so confident your 8s were still good then, rather than smooth calling bets and raises on thre streets, why not raise on one of the earlier streets? (Especially the first hand). Not hating on your play, just wondering?

[MrJones 0]

Well, notice my limp with 88 in one hand my raise with 88 in another. I mix up my play a lot. Sometimes I feel like raising a small pair sometimes I don't. I play the tables. But why not raise? Well exactly, 4 players saw a flop on the KQ board, I figured someone had to have a K or a Q. I just thought it was one of the other two players not 123dog. Since banglo had position on us all I figured he woulda bet the flop if he had either, since 123dog bet and then jiggar folded on the turn he obviously wasn't a problem. Thats how I knew both of them didn't have me beat, how I knew 123dog didn't have me beat was much a guess, but he was a maniac and I knew he would lead out at the flop if he hit a piece of it after reraising preflop too. See none of their plays represented a hand at all. If I raise 123dog and he reraises me what do I do then? I would have to raise from $180 to $400. When I might have him beat he just folds if he has me beat I lose $400, I figured i would face another $200ish bet on the river so I would be getting the same price as a raise, but get $200 more if I have him beat. Make any sense?Against MurderU I had a weak hand and he knew it, he had a weaker hand and I knew it. There was no point again in putting raises in. While I did consider raising the turn as a bluff, but thats all it would have been, and whats the point? He might rebluff, I'd rather just take one off and see what he does. I never put him on an ace in the hand. In fact, I considered his aggression when the ace hit to be a giveaway that he was bluffing, esp, after showing such weakness on the flop.

[MrJones 0]

Though it just turned out to be a busted flush draw, I think it's a better call just for the simple fact that most times you're giving someone credit for having a K or Q in a raised pot.#1 just wreaks of .10/.25 play.  I was wondering what you were limping UTG with, but it makes sense. Dot's Min-bet into a pot of any size is a terrible play no matter what, but then to fold to a MIN RAISE is even worse getting like, 7-1 on your money.  

2 points here.1. What hand has a flush draw, there is not a flush draw in either hand2. ImurderU obviously took me out of consideration in the first hand. I know what his plan was. Just min. raise then hammer the turn and force the fish out anyways. Then when I came along, he knew he had problems, and even bigger problems when the fish folded for $20 more after betting $20 on the flop. Ahh, the turn is an ace, my guess is Roscoe has a midpair or an 89, its bluff time. but I read his thought pattern from his min. raise on the flop, i knew he was setting up a bluff on the turn for the fish. But since I knew that, and I knew an ace is a good bluffing card for him, his bet was just expecteded. And then the $200 on the K, another scare comes and he's still firing? Either he hit his JQ, or like K7, neither which he plays like that, or he has what he had, the nut low, well almost. ;)DN, can you comment on my analysis of these hands and do you think it is right?

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

2 points here.1.  What hand has a flush draw, there is not a flush draw in either hand

Whoops! I thought the A4 was A4s in diamonds.

2.  ImurderU obviously took me out of consideration in the first hand.  I know what his plan was.  Just min. raise then hammer the turn and force the fish out anyways.  Then when I came along, he knew he had problems, and even bigger problems when the fish folded for $20 more after betting $20 on the flop.  Ahh, the turn is an ace, my guess is Roscoe has a midpair or an 89, its bluff time.  but I read his thought pattern from his min. raise on the flop, i knew he was setting up a bluff on the turn for the fish.  But since I knew that, and I knew an ace is a good bluffing card for him, his bet was just expecteded.  And then the $200 on the K, another scare comes and he's still firing?  Either he hit his JQ, or like K7, neither which he plays like that, or he has what he had, the nut low, well almost. ;)DN, can you comment on my analysis of these hands and do you think it is right?

Haha..I did like your analyss, though, I'm not Daniel.I liked your point about not-reraising on earlier streets because the river bet was likely going to be in the 200 dollar neighborhood, meaning you could showdown the same hand with and win more when you're ahead and lose less when you're behind. I think people often forget that.

[matthew r 0]

very good point with the evened out his stack thing.its a huge tell.good post

not sure what OP meant by this, please explain?

[MrJones 0]

2 points here.1.  What hand has a flush draw, there is not a flush draw in either hand

Whoops! I thought the A4 was A4s in diamonds.

2.  ImurderU obviously took me out of consideration in the first hand.  I know what his plan was.  Just min. raise then hammer the turn and force the fish out anyways.  Then when I came along, he knew he had problems, and even bigger problems when the fish folded for $20 more after betting $20 on the flop.  Ahh, the turn is an ace, my guess is Roscoe has a midpair or an 89, its bluff time.  but I read his thought pattern from his min. raise on the flop, i knew he was setting up a bluff on the turn for the fish.  But since I knew that, and I knew an ace is a good bluffing card for him, his bet was just expecteded.  And then the $200 on the K, another scare comes and he's still firing?  Either he hit his JQ, or like K7, neither which he plays like that, or he has what he had, the nut low, well almost. ;)DN, can you comment on my analysis of these hands and do you think it is right?

Haha..I did like your analyss, though, I'm not Daniel.I liked your point about not-reraising on earlier streets because the river bet was likely going to be in the 200 dollar neighborhood, meaning you could showdown the same hand with and win more when you're ahead and lose less when you're behind. I think people often forget that.

It's a limit hold em technique, which is far less valuable in NL but still useful in some, rare scenarios.Evening out your stack. You will see it in tournaments more often. Say on the river someone has 12485. And he bets 2485. That's evenening out a stack. I think it usually means weakness, but I have not researched it enough to say yet. It was just like the cherry on top, of all the other information.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

It's a limit hold em technique, which is far less valuable in NL but still useful in some, rare scenarios.Evening out your stack.  You will see it in tournaments more often.  Say on the river someone has 12485.  And he bets 2485.  That's evenening out a stack.  I think it usually means weakness, but I have not researched it enough to say yet.  It was just like the cherry on top, of all the other information.

A lot of the limit hold 'em techniques have great crossover to NL. Betting big draws aggressively on the flop to buy a free turn/cheap showdown(when you miss) is a huge play that I think people tend to not take advantage of.Good post/thread, Mr. Jones.

[MrJones 0]

Ty DrawingDead.

[Canada 0]

Ty DrawingDead.

looking at your avatars I would suggest that you two were destined to get along.

[CrazyEyez 0]

I have to give you credit for your play. You're way above my skill level, however, i have a hard time reading your posts cause you look like a pretentious little prick in your avatar.Flame away!

[justblaze 0]

what is the point of this thread? to show that you won a $1600 pot? w2g, prostar.

[Drwnded 0]

congrats, but honestly I think you got lucky in your reads here. calling down with 88 in hands like these is going to be -EV against most players in most situations online. we wouldn't be hearing about these hands if the first villian had shown down a set of sevens(which he could've reasonably slowplayed a bit on the flop betting as he did, with a really ragged flop like this), or even something like j10 or K7 or A7. The second villian has K,rag or Q,rag most of the time.this is the problem with posting strategy hands with results included. if you hadn't included the results, people on here would've blasted you as a calling station donk.

[alf13 0]

I like this guy Mr. Jones....he knows his crap.....BTW...let me say...other than just pulling that trigger on an audacious Bluff...there is no more better feeling than making the great call.

[Ron_Mexico 4,219]

I like this guy Mr. Jones....he knows his crap.....BTW...let me say...other than just pulling that trigger on an audacious Bluff...there is no more better feeling than making the great call.

WTF do you know?

[alf13 0]

WTF do you know?

EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYTHING.

[MrJones 0]

congrats, but honestly I think you got lucky in your reads here. calling down with 88 in hands like these is going to be -EV against most players in most situations online. we wouldn't be hearing about these hands if the first villian had shown down a set of sevens(which he could've reasonably slowplayed a bit on the flop betting as he did, with a really ragged flop like this), or even something like j10 or K7 or A7. The second villian has K,rag or Q,rag most of the time.this is the problem with posting strategy hands with results included. if you hadn't included the results, people on here would've blasted you as a calling station donk.

There's no reason to respond really to this all I can say is read the thread.

[matthew r 0]

i think what hes saying is raise and pick up the pot right there without letting him draw more cards but i dunno, ive had a few beerskind of a valid point, but hell, you do that once and the next time the guy is rereraising with those same rags

[KTW 0]

On hand #1 Even though he checked as the BB and min raised the flop he could have very easily shown you any set or even 10K,A10 or AK. I might have played the hand the same way he did but I would for sure have had better than 88. :wink: I agree with your thoughts much more on hand #2.How long were you at this table prior to the 1st posted hand ? and how many hands have you played with these 2 before this session?You are a thinking analytical player like me.I wouldn't mind playing with you some time. My screen name on PS is KTW35 but I do not play there too often. My name on FTP is KTW and it is KTW35 on UB.I have not been playing much higher than $15/$30 or $2/$4L in a while because I was having my home built and I got married on Christmas Eve.I hope to playing up to full power very soon which would be a little higher stakes and up to 10 hours a session.The evening out the stack thing I do notice when it is done but I see it has both weak and power when I see it. I personally do notmake a habit of it unless I just happened to do it for "ease" and "quickness" of a bet. But thats me. :roll: