gambling 101 for dreamclown and co.

[7upncider 0]

Dreamclown is a joke!! They start out with money their mommys and daddys gave them, which to my understanding is unlimited. Then they find someone they can bully around in one of these poker sites. Once acomplished they just keep reraising until the guy folds. If the guy comes back with a raise then they fold.But with there unlimited bankroll from their parents its easy to come across fish the whole internet poker world is full of them looking to get rich. Now we all need to stop talking about this spoilled poker team of over privileged kids and get back to what we all do best. Have fun at the game we like. POKER

[MrJones 0]

Someone sent me a link to some threads that have been taking place on other forums. To say "brain dead" would be a little harsh, but clearly these children are missing the obvious truth: Let us look at an example shall we? Let's say that I am shooting free throws against somebody and am winning $95,000. The bet is simple, each shot is worth $5000, if we both make, or both miss we break even. Now for this example, let's assume that I'm an 80% shooter from the line, while my opponent is a 67% shooter making me a favorite. Now, my opponent is down to $5000 and asks me to LITERALLY flip a coin for it and he'll then continue shooting hoops with me. Well, the odds would obviously be 50-50 on the coinflip. Heads I bust him, tails and I get to continue playing as a substancial favorite. Essentially, the better player is a HUGE favorite to win the coinflip! As long as the sucker would continue to shoot hoops with me, I would win that $5000 a very high percentage of the time. Even if the sucker made a stipulation where every time he was down to $5000 we'd flip for it, I would get that $5000. To pass up on the proposition to flip the coin would be passing up on substancial +EV since I would essentially be getting odds on the coinflip. I'd have a 50% chance to win it right away, but even if I lose that coinflip it would allow me to have another bet where I'll make 4 out of 5 baskets compared to my opponent who will only make 2 out of 3. Class dismissed.

As much of a great reader of the game as involving the psycholicical elemtnt you fail to relize the psyhcologicila elemnt of playng someone for miniimum bets whne nu got $1 mil in ur account.

[Canada 0]

As much of a great reader of the game as involving the psycholicical elemtnt you fail to relize the psyhcologicila elemnt of playng someone for miniimum bets whne nu got $1 mil in ur account.

On behalf of all the dyslexics on this forum...thnak oyu

[John_Galt67 0]

Jus kiddin...Seriously, settle it on the felt. Is this going to be a heads up battle, or will others be allowed to buy in? The bottom line is DN got stung, wanted to play til he ran out, Clownrash decided he had gotten pretty lucky, didn't want to give DN a chance for a miracle comeback, etc. Numerous forum posts ensue.

[KyleStark 0]

So think about this... why would the person that is 80% from the free throw line want to LOWER his odds of winning to 50% for the $5000? The 80% guy is already a favorite, why would you feel the need to give your opponent an even shot at winning? If the person shooting 80% againest a guys 67% already has an advantage why would you want to lower your advantage to an even percentage?

Here is the kicker, if you DON'T flip the coin with the 67% shooter you have NO CHANCE to get the $5000. That would be lowering your expectatiion to... 0! By accepting the 50-50 bet, you will give youself an opportunity to make an additional bet where you are a favorite.

I understand your stance on "throwing a guy a bone out of respect" however in regards to this analogy....yes of course you have no chance at 5k....but I think Team DreamClown's point is about poker hours. Flipping coins to get a short stack isn't going to be as profitable as playing real poker with an edge that they think they have. I think it's a time/hourly rate issue. I think he thinks he doesn't want to be "wasting his time" flipping for "crumbs" with you when he could be taking more money off others.

[eugeneelGCC 0]

"Five grand may mean more to Dreamclown than to Daniel so I don't blame him for not doing it."the more $ u have the less every dollar means to you. So a true coinflip for 5k for anyone should be -ev. Plus again there is the bad very bad feeling attached to the "what if DN won 50k and quit right away" situation. After reading his posts I am sure it wouldn't have happened at the time I had no ideal if it could have happened or not. I dont follow the morals and playing prefereces of different pros but I know from experience that some of them, dont mind hitting and running.

[ShakeZuma 585]

"Five grand may mean more to Dreamclown than to Daniel so I don't blame him for not doing it."the more $ u have the less every dollar means to you. So a true coinflip for 5k for anyone should be -ev. Plus again there is the bad very bad feeling attached to the "what if DN won 50k and quit right away" situation. After reading his posts I am sure it wouldn't have happened at the time I had no ideal if it could have happened or not. I dont follow the morals and playing prefereces of different pros but I know from experience that some of them, dont mind hitting and running.

is English your first language?

[Canada 0]

Flipping coins to get a short stack isn't going to be as profitable as playing real poker with an edge that they think they have. I think it's a time/hourly rate issue. I think he thinks he doesn't want to be "wasting his time" flipping for "crumbs" with you when he could be taking more money off others.

The thing is it's only a coin flip if seen as single event.In a series of events where DC has an edge then reducing the final event to a 50/50 proposition is still +EVNo matter how often DN 'wins' the coinflip, with an edge DC will always drive DN back down to a coinflip situation and eventually win.The problem is that the edge here (whomever it belongs to) is probably tiny maybe 48/52 at best and DC probably hasn't felt the need to think it through enough to justify giving up (what he perceives as) his only advantage

[DLQSOX 0]

Someone sent me a link to some threads that have been taking place on other forums. To say "brain dead" would be a little harsh, but clearly these children are missing the obvious truth: Let us look at an example shall we? Let's say that I am shooting free throws against somebody and am winning $95,000. The bet is simple, each shot is worth $5000, if we both make, or both miss we break even. Now for this example, let's assume that I'm an 80% shooter from the line, while my opponent is a 67% shooter making me a favorite. Now, my opponent is down to $5000 and asks me to LITERALLY flip a coin for it and he'll then continue shooting hoops with me. Well, the odds would obviously be 50-50 on the coinflip. Heads I bust him, tails and I get to continue playing as a substancial favorite. Essentially, the better player is a HUGE favorite to win the coinflip! As long as the sucker would continue to shoot hoops with me, I would win that $5000 a very high percentage of the time. Even if the sucker made a stipulation where every time he was down to $5000 we'd flip for it, I would get that $5000. To pass up on the proposition to flip the coin would be passing up on substancial +EV since I would essentially be getting odds on the coinflip. I'd have a 50% chance to win it right away, but even if I lose that coinflip it would allow me to have another bet where I'll make 4 out of 5 baskets compared to my opponent who will only make 2 out of 3. Class dismissed.

Although Daniel's logical take on the short stack vs big stack situation is absolutely true, I think if Dreamclown is really a top notch internet player/team , then the Clown himself would know this as well.Assuming that the Clown is a fairly agressive player, my guess is that he asked Daniel to reload because he probably knew that he couldn't bluff out a short stack. Most good internet players tend to use bluffing as a high percentage of their plays, and if he knows that Daniel cannot be bluffed out of a pot this gives him a decided disadvantage for that last bit of money that Daniel had. I don't believe that the Clown is an idiot that he wouldn't understand the situation described above, nor is this an issue of poker etiquette. If I was the Clown I would probably do the same thing and hope that no one notices the real reason why I wouldn't play the short stack. Anyway that's my 2 cents. I apologize if someone else posted this somewhere else on this massive forum.

[IndyJoe 0]

Funny you say this Daniel, but as I pointed out on NWP, you made the complete opposite argument when you were on the OTHER end of the "stack" in your lame "tourist" post. The one where you so proudly claimed how great a guy you were by giving all the tourist at a 5/10 game a chance to flip their entire stack (trip money/mortgage money, etc) for a chance at your 150k stack. Funny, but back then you seemed to think that the short stacks were the one with the "big" advantage! Seems a bit hypocritical to me.So, what again were you trying to teach?

I'm really not sure why I'm responding to this, but it has me laughing pretty hard so I'll give it a try: Dude, you are comparing apples to Norweigan Frankfurters! When I played at the win I was going all in BLIND. BLIND!!! You call that flipping coins in a 50-50 situation? I'm all in with a random hand in a 10 handed game, and others can wait for a hand like QQ. They get QQ, I get 10-3 off suit. That's a coinflip to you? Man, on second though, why did I even bother replying to this post. It's not that funny at all...

Daniel, let me see if I can explain this to you in a way that you might understand. Lets say that you sit down with $500k, and Bill Gates sits with you and he puts up $1.5 million. He says that he's going to play some of these hands blind. First hand, you get dealt AK, and he pushes his $1.5 mill. What do you do? What are your odds? Next hand you get QQ, and he pushes in again. What do you do? What are your odds? The fact is, you don't know. Why is it that everyone always thinks the "maniac" has 10-3 or 7-2? That's a ridiculous, and possibly very costly assumption. What if he DID have 7-2 against your AK? Would you do it? Would you risk your $500 thousand on 60% odds? What about 70%? Seriously?The point is Daniel is that you have forced the opponent to GAMBLE. You've taken all the SKILL out of the game. Do you get this at all? Do you understand Dreamclown's position at all? He wasn't willing to continue playing when he felt his skill advantage had been reduced to a coin flip.Man, why to I bother replying......

[Canada 0]

Daniel, let me see if I can explain this to you in a way that you might understand.

Translation: "Come enter the mind of a donkey"

Lets say that you sit down with $500k, and Bill Gates sits with you and he puts up $1.5 million. He says that he's going to play some of these hands blind. First hand, you get dealt AK, and he pushes his $1.5 mill. What do you do? What are your odds? Next hand you get QQ, and he pushes in again. What do you do? What are your odds? The fact is, you don't know. Why is it that everyone always thinks the "maniac" has 10-3 or 7-2? That's a ridiculous, and possibly very costly assumption. What if he DID have 7-2 against your AK? Would you do it? Would you risk your $500 thousand on 60% odds? What about 70%? Seriously?

60% , 70% - I think the answer is a resounding yes, every fn time

The point is Daniel is that you have forced the opponent to GAMBLE.

The point is Joe, you can't understand the most simple of mathematics involved in poker so why not let it go before you embarass yourself a little more

You've taken all the SKILL out of the game. Do you get this at all? Do you understand Dreamclown's position at all? He wasn't willing to continue playing when he felt his skill advantage had been reduced to a coin flip.

Ahhh... the single biggest thing that a SKILLFUL player does is get his money in as a favourite. What don't you get about that you muppet. Seriously, how can you be that daft and still operate a keyboard?

Do you understand Dreamclown's position at all? He wasn't willing to continue playing when he felt his skill advantage had been reduced to a coin flip.

I'm pretty sure he does understand it and has tried to explain the BIGGER PICTURE so that even people on the short bus with you can see it. If DreamClown does have an edge, the EV of the situation extends beyond the point of DN having a shortstack - but I'm using too many syllables here.

Man, why to I bother replying......

Lets make it less painful for all of us because this is really embarassing for you.Don't bother replying

[mrfrankhg 0]

Let me get this straight right off the bat. I think this Assclown is a complete moron(s), and no matter how hard I try I can't see his logic.But I think many people here are missing a key point. Many of you are claiming that Assclown "realized he got lucky and ran." I think this is absolutely untrue. In fact I have no doubts that Clown believes 100 percent that he (they) is a better player than Daniel. I mean think about it, he ASKED Daniel to reload, twice! A poker player's ego can be his worst enemy. I have yet to meet one poker player who has said "yeah, i'm not that good." I once heard Daniel himself say "poker is like sex, everyone thinks they're the best, but most people don't have a clue what they're doing." Now I'm not claiming that Assclown doesn't know what he's doing. By all accounts he's a top internet player at the highest levels. I'm just saying that he truly believes he's better than DN and has something to prove.I look forward to Daniel busting his ass and sending those NWP posters back to their trailer parks.

[BadBeatBou 0]

Daniel, let me see if I can explain this to you in a way that you might understand. Lets say that you sit down with $500k, and Bill Gates sits with you and he puts up $1.5 million. He says that he's going to play some of these hands blind. First hand, you get dealt AK, and he pushes his $1.5 mill. What do you do? What are your odds? Next hand you get QQ, and he pushes in again. What do you do? What are your odds?  The fact is, you don't know. Why is it that everyone always thinks the "maniac" has 10-3 or 7-2? That's a ridiculous, and possibly very costly assumption. What if he DID have 7-2 against your AK? Would you do it? Would you risk your $500 thousand on 60% odds? What about 70%? Seriously?The point is Daniel is that you have forced the opponent to GAMBLE. You've taken all the SKILL out of the game. Do you get this at all? Do you understand Dreamclown's position at all? He wasn't willing to continue playing when he felt his skill advantage had been reduced to a coin flip.Man, why to I bother replying......

Just one thing... Please Daniel, do not respond to IndyJoe anymore. Please, do not respond to somebody who would not bet his money when he knows he is a 60% favorite (not even a 70%!). Please, he might be 6 years old.There are a lot of great (and funny) posts in this forum about a lot of different subjects that I would like your opinion on, this is not one of them.

[mhoward29 0]

Funny you say this Daniel, but as I pointed out on NWP, you made the complete opposite argument when you were on the OTHER end of the "stack" in your lame "tourist" post. The one where you so proudly claimed how great a guy you were by giving all the tourist at a 5/10 game a chance to flip their entire stack (trip money/mortgage money, etc) for a chance at your 150k stack.  Funny, but back then you seemed to think that the short stacks were the one with the "big" advantage! Seems a bit hypocritical to me.So, what again were you trying to teach?

I'm really not sure why I'm responding to this, but it has me laughing pretty hard so I'll give it a try: Dude, you are comparing apples to Norweigan Frankfurters! When I played at the win I was going all in BLIND. BLIND!!! You call that flipping coins in a 50-50 situation? I'm all in with a random hand in a 10 handed game, and others can wait for a hand like QQ. They get QQ, I get 10-3 off suit. That's a coinflip to you? Man, on second though, why did I even bother replying to this post. It's not that funny at all...

Daniel, let me see if I can explain this to you in a way that you might understand. Lets say that you sit down with $500k, and Bill Gates sits with you and he puts up $1.5 million. He says that he's going to play some of these hands blind. First hand, you get dealt AK, and he pushes his $1.5 mill. What do you do? What are your odds? Next hand you get QQ, and he pushes in again. What do you do? What are your odds? The fact is, you don't know. Why is it that everyone always thinks the "maniac" has 10-3 or 7-2? That's a ridiculous, and possibly very costly assumption. What if he DID have 7-2 against your AK? Would you do it? Would you risk your $500 thousand on 60% odds? What about 70%? Seriously?The point is Daniel is that you have forced the opponent to GAMBLE. You've taken all the SKILL out of the game. Do you get this at all? Do you understand Dreamclown's position at all? He wasn't willing to continue playing when he felt his skill advantage had been reduced to a coin flip.Man, why to I bother replying......

Well, the last time I played poker was at a casino. I think thats where to go if I wanna GAMBLE. If it was a sure thing with any hand they wouldnt have anything called odds... thats why every hand has odds.

[rog 0]

This thread is asinine. I cant fathom how a group of high-rollers and their groupies can not get something so simple.1) It's not a coin-flip vs a 5 BB stack. Even if the cheap streets are capped, there's still a decision on the turn at the very least. Calling down on every street costs you either 3 or 3.5 BB. You cant even be forced to cover his 5 BB on any give hand to show down. It's not even a coin flip taken as a single event.2) If it were a coin flip for 5k (which it's not), it would be one coin flip for the last 5k, not a series of coin flips for doucheclown's 95k stack. This is limit right? Doesn't anyone see the difference limit makes?3) There is no comparison between this and DN's "tourist" game in his training day blog. The tourist game was NL. DN as the HUGE stack could make it a series of coin flips for as long as he held the big stack. If he's willing to do that blind every hand (which is close to what he was doing), it gives a huge advantage to the shortstack. In the Doucheclown example, DN cant force even a single coin flip. To accept DC's explanation would be equivalent to thinking that in a limit freezeout, as the chip-leader's lead widens, his chances of winning actually decreases. This is utterly assinine.Maybe people are being intentionally thick to stir the pot a bit...I dont know. I certainly hope so.

[Fooditty 0]

This thread is asinine.  I cant fathom how a group of high-rollers and their groupies can not get something so simple.1)  It's not a coin-flip vs a 5 BB stack.  Even if the cheap streets are capped, there's still a decision on the turn at the very least.  Calling down on every street costs you either 3 or 3.5 BB.  You cant even be forced to cover his 5 BB on any give hand to show down.  It's not even a coin flip taken as a single event.2)  If it were a coin flip for 5k (which it's not), it would be one coin flip for the last 5k, not a series of coin flips for doucheclown's 95k stack.  This is limit right?  Doesn't anyone see the difference limit makes?3)  There is no comparison between this and DN's "tourist" game in his training day blog.  The tourist game was NL.  DN as the HUGE stack could make it a series of coin flips for as long as he held the big stack.  If he's willing to do that blind every hand (which is close to what he was doing), it gives a huge advantage to the shortstack.  In the Doucheclown example, DN cant force even a single coin flip.  To accept DC's explanation would be equivalent to thinking that in a limit freezeout, as the chip-leader's lead widens, his chances of winning actually decreases.  This is utterly assinine.Maybe people are being intentionally thick to stir the pot a bit...I dont know.  I certainly hope so.

Agreed. But did you just find out this word existed?

[kook04 0]

The point is Daniel is that you have forced the opponent to GAMBLE. You've taken all the SKILL out of the game. Do you get this at all? Do you understand Dreamclown's position at all? He wasn't willing to continue playing when he felt his skill advantage had been reduced to a coin flip.Man, why to I bother replying......

Umm... The theory that you are referring to here is sound, but there is one problem with the way you are applying it:You and "Dreamclown" both are convinced (for some unknown reason) that Dreamclown has a distinct skill advantage over Daniel. Having said that, I ask you this: What makes you think that it is a foregone conclusion that Dreamclown is more skilled than Daniel?I look forward to your response.

[rog 0]

So think about this... why would the person that is 80% from the free throw line want to LOWER his odds of winning to 50% for the $5000?  

Because with a deep stack, and a big edge, he's practically guaranteed a second shot at it if he loses. And another and another etc...

[ctcarton 0]

So think about this... why would the person that is 80% from the free throw line want to LOWER his odds of winning to 50% for the $5000?  The 80% guy is already a favorite, why would you feel the need to give your opponent an even shot at winning?  If the person shooting 80% againest a guys 67% already has an advantage why would you want to lower your advantage to an even percentage?  

Here is the kicker, if you DON'T flip the coin with the 67% shooter you have NO CHANCE to get the $5000. That would be lowering your expectatiion to... 0! By accepting the 50-50 bet, you will give youself an opportunity to make an additional bet where you are a favorite.

This is where the analogy breaks down. DC was confident that you would reload and try him again eventually. And you probably will, if you haven't yet. That means his EV stays higher if he refuses the coin flip.

[Railtard 0]

don't you guys think you're a little myopic about daniel's skills against a LHE specialist? try to separate your dreams of being his assistant from reality before you post

[adammc 0]

If I have cleaned you out shooting free throws where I am a statistical favourite, I would never flip a coin with you.Gambling 101 would be bet when you have an edge. Nobody has an edge flipping a coin. He feels he has an edge over you playing poker. I don't understand what your math proves except that I, as a superior free throw shooter should show you mercy when I have crippled you while I have my edge to prolong, from your mathematics, and barring any statistically improbable thing (you winning hundreds of coinflips and then going on a ridiculous hot streak at the line), a situation I have already won. Call me crazy but if I feel I have a statistical edge over you playing poker, and know you are going to rebuy at sometime and play me while I feel I have my edge, I am not going to give you action in an even money situation to keep you happy.

[adammc 0]

If I have cleaned you out shooting free throws where I am a statistical favourite, I would never flip a coin with you.Gambling 101 would be bet when you have an edge. Nobody has an edge flipping a coin. He feels he has an edge over you playing poker. I don't understand what your math proves except that I, as a superior free throw shooter should show you mercy when I have crippled you while I have my edge to prolong, from your mathematics, and barring any statistically improbable thing (you winning hundreds of coinflips and then going on a ridiculous hot streak at the line), a situation I have already won. Call me crazy but if I feel I have a statistical edge over you playing poker, and know you are going to rebuy at sometime and play me while I feel I have my edge, I am not going to give you action in an even money situation to keep you happy.

[Dratj 0]

I can't believe that people are still on this subject.

[booyaga 0]

all this talk about flipping a coin just makes me lean towards thinking online poker is all about luck...and has nothing to do with skill. If they want to think about it that way, then those "online pros" are not good...they're just lucky punks

[psujohn 0]

Perhaps we can simplify it a bit more. If DC really believe he has a skill advantage at LHE then the coinflip situation boils down to this.Let's flip a coin for $5k. If you win you get to keep the money. If I win I'll give you back your $5k over the next few hands and we can flip again.Does anyone still think that's a bad deal?Of course this also makes the assumption that DC is somehow legally obligated to put it all in on the very next hand. It's only a "coinflip" if he allows it to be.