how many of you would have laid kings down here?

[majorleag 0]

I wanted to share a monster hand I had today and am curious if anyone would have laid down the kings.Once the guy went all in who had me more than covered I really considered tossing the kings convinced that he had the Aces. Glad I held on.Hand history below:PokerStars Game #2321440123: Hold'em No Limit ($3/$6) - 2005/08/12 - 12:53:03 (ET)Table 'Norma' Seat #5 is the buttonSeat 1: FILL A RACK ($825.20 in chips) Seat 2: IAmGhost ($1154.45 in chips) Seat 3: check_kills ($1014.75 in chips) Seat 4: jonob ($585 in chips) Seat 5: Nicolai ($575.25 in chips) Seat 6: Tommie ($594 in chips) Seat 7: majorleag ($491.55 in chips) Seat 8: kvalla19 ($361 in chips) Seat 9: LessMurphy ($1005.75 in chips) Tommie: posts small blind $3majorleag: posts big blind $6*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to majorleag [Kd Kc]kvalla19: calls $6LessMurphy: folds FILL A RACK: raises $18 to $24IAmGhost: calls $24check_kills: folds jonob: calls $24Nicolai: folds Tommie: calls $21majorleag: raises $176 to $200kvalla19: folds FILL A RACK: raises $625.20 to $825.20 and is all-inIAmGhost: folds jonob: folds Tommie: folds majorleag said, "aces you got me"majorleag: calls $291.55 and is all-in*** FLOP *** [5h 2d 7c]majorleag said, "nh"*** TURN *** [5h 2d 7c] [Tc]*** RIVER *** [5h 2d 7c Tc] [9s]jonob said, "TT"jonob said, "damn"*** SHOW DOWN ***majorleag: shows [Kd Kc] (a pair of Kings)FILL A RACK: shows [Qs Qd] (a pair of Queens)jonob said, "folded the winner"majorleag collected $1058.10 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $1061.10 | Rake $3 Board [5h 2d 7c Tc 9s]Seat 1: FILL A RACK showed [Qs Qd] and lost with a pair of QueensSeat 2: IAmGhost folded before FlopSeat 3: check_kills folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 4: jonob folded before FlopSeat 5: Nicolai (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 6: Tommie (small blind) folded before FlopSeat 7: majorleag (big blind) showed [Kd Kc] and won ($1058.10) with a pair of KingsSeat 8: kvalla19 folded before FlopSeat 9: LessMurphy folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[Guest XXEddie]

dont show the results, it leads to bias opinions, and probably call here considering considering Im getting about 2-1 on my money and ive already invested 40%any reads??

[Ricky10105 0]

why would you fold kings if he has queens?

[jaaaaakke 0]

why would you fold kings if he has queens?

LOL.Second best starting hand in holdem....i would have done the same thing. nice hand!

[majorleag 0]

why would you fold kings if he has queens?

LOL.Second best starting hand in holdem....i would have done the same thing. nice hand!

Thanks! It was scary though and for quite a bit of dough!

[Jelly-Filled Ace 1]

nh.

[Guest XXEddie]

why would you fold kings if he has queens?

you sound like one of those 12 year old kids who does nothing but watches ESPN and the WPT all day thinking poker is really easy because you can see the hole cards, and in turn you bash any and all players who make any mistakes"WHY ARE YOU FOLDING JACK SEVEN PREFLOP!!!!! ITS OBVIOUS HES TRYING TO STEAL IT WITH HIS NINE FOUR!!!!GOD YOURE DUMB!"

[fryer98 30]

Thanks! It was scary though and for quite a bit of dough!

Something's not right if you say it was "scary" to go all-in with your Ks...or is it just me??

[No_Neck 0]

how big is your BR to be playing at that level? I am just curious, i can understand if you don't want to give that info out.

[Ricky10105 0]

why would you fold kings if he has queens?

you sound like one of those 12 year old kids who does nothing but watches ESPN and the WPT all day thinking poker is really easy because you can see the hole cards, and in turn you bash any and all players who make any mistakes"WHY ARE YOU FOLDING JACK SEVEN PREFLOP!!!!! ITS OBVIOUS HES TRYING TO STEAL IT WITH HIS NINE FOUR!!!!GOD YOURE DUMB!"

well actually im only 8 and i don't understand why you would fold kings if the other person has queens isn't kings better than queens?

[Guest XXEddie]

why would you fold kings if he has queens?

you sound like one of those 12 year old kids who does nothing but watches ESPN and the WPT all day thinking poker is really easy because you can see the hole cards, and in turn you bash any and all players who make any mistakes"WHY ARE YOU FOLDING JACK SEVEN PREFLOP!!!!! ITS OBVIOUS HES TRYING TO STEAL IT WITH HIS NINE FOUR!!!!GOD YOURE DUMB!"

well actually im only 8 and i don't understand why you would fold kings if the other person has queens isn't kings better than queens?

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury..........I rest my case...this is also why I said to not show the results

[stoodz 0]

You should lay down KK pre-flop approximately never.

[semaj550 0]

Well in a cash game the call is much easier than in a tournament. Having said that the thing to consider is the range of hands this guy could push with. Could he ONLY push with aces in this spot? If so, fold but be damn sure of your read. More than likely he could push with A's, the other K's, Q's, and AKs if he's a moderately tight player (espeically if he hasn't been in any action for a while) and you can add J's, T's AQs and AK0 if he's a looser player.Now look at the odds:Ultra tight player: You're dead meat, he's got acesModerately tight player: 1/4 you're dead meat, 1/4 you've got the same hand, 1/4 you're in a dominating position, 1/4 you're in a very strong position. More good situations than bad, you should probably call.Looser player: 1/8 he's got the aces, 1/8 you've got the same hand, 3/8 you're in a domination position, 3/8 you're in a very strong position. Should be an easy call. So it all depends on how you read this guy and the range of hands he could be holding.

[majorleag 0]

You should lay down KK pre-flop approximately never.

LOL, I would agree but I have heard many people claim that they can and or have done it.I usually plan to win or go broke with them.

[majorleag 0]

why would you fold kings if he has queens?

you sound like one of those 12 year old kids who does nothing but watches ESPN and the WPT all day thinking poker is really easy because you can see the hole cards, and in turn you bash any and all players who make any mistakes"WHY ARE YOU FOLDING JACK SEVEN PREFLOP!!!!! ITS OBVIOUS HES TRYING TO STEAL IT WITH HIS NINE FOUR!!!!GOD YOURE DUMB!"

well actually im only 8 and i don't understand why you would fold kings if the other person has queens isn't kings better than queens?

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury..........I rest my case...this is also why I said to not show the results

Eddie, I figured it would make sense to show the results so folks could also see the betting and why I thought I might be dead.I would like to think that Ricky is being funny, but you never know.

[majorleag 0]

Well in a cash game the call is much easier than in a tournament. Having said that the thing to consider is the range of hands this guy could push with. Could he ONLY push with aces in this spot? If so, fold but be damn sure of your read. More than likely he could push with A's, the other K's, Q's, and AKs if he's a moderately tight player (espeically if he hasn't been in any action for a while) and you can add J's, T's AQs and AK0 if he's a looser player.Now look at the odds:Ultra tight player: You're dead meat, he's got acesModerately tight player: 1/4 you're dead meat, 1/4 you've got the same hand, 1/4 you're in a dominating position, 1/4 you're in a very strong position. More good situations than bad, you should probably call.Looser player: 1/8 he's got the aces, 1/8 you've got the same hand, 3/8 you're in a domination position, 3/8 you're in a very strong position. Should be an easy call. So it all depends on how you read this guy and the range of hands he could be holding.

Very well thought out and insightful! Thanks. That's basically the way I reasoned it. I felt good but was also concerned, since all of us have lost with Kings, Aces etc., so when he put me all in, I certainly had to give him some credit.I only considered lay them down very, very briefly and not too seriously.Thanks again!

[semaj550 0]

Well in a cash game the call is much easier than in a tournament. Having said that the thing to consider is the range of hands this guy could push with. Could he ONLY push with aces in this spot? If so, fold but be damn sure of your read. More than likely he could push with A's, the other K's, Q's, and AKs if he's a moderately tight player (espeically if he hasn't been in any action for a while) and you can add J's, T's AQs and AK0 if he's a looser player.Now look at the odds:Ultra tight player: You're dead meat, he's got acesModerately tight player: 1/4 you're dead meat, 1/4 you've got the same hand, 1/4 you're in a dominating position, 1/4 you're in a very strong position. More good situations than bad, you should probably call.Looser player: 1/8 he's got the aces, 1/8 you've got the same hand, 3/8 you're in a domination position, 3/8 you're in a very strong position. Should be an easy call. So it all depends on how you read this guy and the range of hands he could be holding.

Very well thought out and insightful! Thanks. That's basically the way I reasoned it. I felt good but was also concerned, since all of us have lost with Kings, Aces etc., so when he put me all in, I certainly had to give him some credit.I only considered lay them down very, very briefly and not too seriously.Thanks again!

Think of it this way:There's only 1 hand that scares you and if he's got it, you reload and go back to work. That's why the call is much easier than in a freezeout tournament where once your chips are gone you're out. Kings are a monster, stack up very well against 167 hands and you've got a chance to play a huge pot with a huge hand. I, for one, would have a VERY hard time convincing myself that anyone is tight enough to ONLY reraise with aces. There's a reasonable chance that he's got them but not enough to pass up this opportunity. Tournament, easier fold. Cash game, no frigging way.

[mbreon 0]

I can't remember ever being in a cash game where someone laid down KK before the flop. In a tournament under a special set of circumstances, perhaps, but in cash game, never. You take your chances there. And to the 8 year old who said why fold KK if the other guy has QQ, well unless you are Ms. Cleo, you don't really know what the other guy has. This is why you don't post results of the hand so that we can use the same amount of information the OP had at the time to make a decision.

[Twigsta13 0]

this situation seems to come up a lot...I just do not see any logical way Kings could be folded if someone fires back at you before the flop. Even if you think that he might have aces. I believe (I can be wrong) that the scenario where he has Aces when you have kings is like one in about every 30 times...so theres no way you can fold that.

[Socrates 0]

this situation seems to come up a lot...I just do not see any logical way Kings could be folded if someone fires back at you before the flop.  Even if you think that he might have aces.  I believe (I can be wrong) that the scenario where he has Aces when you have kings is like one in about every 30 times...so theres no way you can fold that.

Jackbauer24 says fold KK preflop here, but call with AK suited. See other post.

[Dhall901 0]

I understand your concern, guy puts you in for your stack you've gotta be thinking he's holding aces. Hell, it's the only hand you have to worry about..but if he holds 'em you've just gotta toss that one to the wind, and go broke..or pray for one of those kings..or 10 J Q A 2..lol.

[Ricky10105 0]

i think id rather LAY queens than kings....but you FCPers might think differently so ill quit posting hereactually i'll keep posting just to please you guys with my knowledge

[NickG 0]

Well in a cash game the call is much easier than in a tournament. Having said that the thing to consider is the range of hands this guy could push with. Could he ONLY push with aces in this spot? If so, fold but be damn sure of your read. More than likely he could push with A's, the other K's, Q's, and AKs if he's a moderately tight player (espeically if he hasn't been in any action for a while) and you can add J's, T's AQs and AK0 if he's a looser player.Now look at the odds:Ultra tight player: You're dead meat, he's got acesModerately tight player: 1/4 you're dead meat, 1/4 you've got the same hand, 1/4 you're in a dominating position, 1/4 you're in a very strong position. More good situations than bad, you should probably call.Looser player: 1/8 he's got the aces, 1/8 you've got the same hand, 3/8 you're in a domination position, 3/8 you're in a very strong position. Should be an easy call. So it all depends on how you read this guy and the range of hands he could be holding.

One thing to note...it is actually much less likely that your opponent has KK than you imply here. Since you are holding two of the kings, it is statistically six time more like that your opponent has AA (or QQ of course) than KK. This reduces the probability of being in a +EV pot odds situation, which makes the decision lean a little bit more toward folding. Ultimately, I would still call though.

[cougfan 0]

the situation and the player would dictate what I would do. And folding KK in this spot is definitely an option, I would against many players.

[clashcityrocker 0]

I fold Kings here only if the guy with Tens calls.