was this correct?? comments please

[hoosierAKs 0]

People DO understand that the Stop-and-Go is designed for big pairs (AA, KK) that become overpairs when the flop hits... right?a small pair is one of the worst possible hands to make this play with.and Zimmer basically just sum'd up the correct responses in this thread... so just read that and move on

[nealdo17 0]

You made the correct play, period end of story. There is no debate, there is right and wrong in this situation. You ended up making the right decision with an undesirable outcome. Poker is about decisions, not outcomes. Outcomes cant be controlled, decisions can.

[wontbez 0]

After reading through this entire thread, it became extremely obvious why I  make a very healthy second income playing poker.  I love the people who say it is a good idea to call and then push after the flop.  Yeah, great idea.  This way you can win the minimum and lose the maximum every time.  Good strategy.It is great that some people are this ignorant when it comes to no-limit tournament strategy.

No kidding, the old call and push play is how I build my stack a lot of the times. I would have folded the 33 in that spot, even if you think the guy is bluffing, he's got 2 overs on you. Not the best spot to be in. You've got the button next hand, wait for a better spot. NSXT2 talks a lot about defending your blind, and his best advice IMO is not to let pride get in the way, just fold and move on to the next hand.

[HoosierAlum 0]

After reading through this entire thread, it became extremely obvious why I  make a very healthy second income playing poker.  I love the people who say it is a good idea to call and then push after the flop.  Yeah, great idea.  This way you can win the minimum and lose the maximum every time.  Good strategy.It is great that some people are this ignorant when it comes to no-limit tournament strategy.

No kidding, the old call and push play is how I build my stack a lot of the times.

You misread my post. I think you are saying the call and push play is good here. It is the most moronic thing you can possibly do and I am in no way advocating it.Again, you will lose the maximum and win the absolute minimum.

[wontbez 0]

After reading through this entire thread, it became extremely obvious why I  make a very healthy second income playing poker.  I love the people who say it is a good idea to call and then push after the flop.  Yeah, great idea.  This way you can win the minimum and lose the maximum every time.  Good strategy.It is great that some people are this ignorant when it comes to no-limit tournament strategy.

No kidding, the old call and push play is how I build my stack a lot of the times.

You misread my post. I think you are saying the call and push play is good here. It is the absolutely the most moronic thing you can possibly do and I am in no way advocating it.Again, you will lose the maximum and win the absolute minimum.

Nope, you misread mine. I take advantage of players trying to use this move to muscle me out of pots. By calling them with my average hands when I know this is what they're doing is how I get my big stack ;)Now the Push and Muck play, that's genius, how can you defend against that. I have a funny story I'll post.

[gadjet 11]

OK, let's let the tourney pro get his say.  (sw)I personally think the OP made the exact correct play.  Chances are that this guy is on a steal play from the button, and the 3s is almost a semi bluff.  If he is stealing, then he will probably fold, and you add 26,000 to your stack.  If he is not stealing, then you are most likely in a race like you were.  Little bad luck, and you're out.  When the blinds are that high, you have to win a few races to get back in it.  I don't think folding is an option at all here.  You only have 11 BBs left, and 5 handed you can't wait for premium hands.

Good post, except folding is an equally good play given the info we have, we don't know about the aggressor or other peoples stacks so you can't rule out folding. What if the situation is you are on the button and there are 3 players left with less than 5,000 folding for sure is +EV because you have a strong shot at 2 shortstacks busting and the table merging giving you fresh life. There are too many situations possible that you simply can't say All in is the only play.

[HoosierAlum 0]

OK, let's let the tourney pro get his say.  (sw)I personally think the OP made the exact correct play.  Chances are that this guy is on a steal play from the button, and the 3s is almost a semi bluff.  If he is stealing, then he will probably fold, and you add 26,000 to your stack.  If he is not stealing, then you are most likely in a race like you were.  Little bad luck, and you're out.  When the blinds are that high, you have to win a few races to get back in it.  I don't think folding is an option at all here.  You only have 11 BBs left, and 5 handed you can't wait for premium hands.

Good post, except folding is an equally good play given the info we have, we don't know about the aggressor or other peoples stacks so you can't rule out folding. What if the situation is you are on the button and there are 3 players left with less than 5,000 folding for sure is +EV because you have a strong shot at 2 shortstacks busting and the table merging giving you fresh life. There are too many situations possible that you simply can't say All in is the only play.

Good point. Although if there weren't 2 extremely small stacks, shoving is the best play.

[zimmer4141 0]

OK, let's let the tourney pro get his say.  (sw)I personally think the OP made the exact correct play.  Chances are that this guy is on a steal play from the button, and the 3s is almost a semi bluff.  If he is stealing, then he will probably fold, and you add 26,000 to your stack.  If he is not stealing, then you are most likely in a race like you were.  Little bad luck, and you're out.  When the blinds are that high, you have to win a few races to get back in it.  I don't think folding is an option at all here.  You only have 11 BBs left, and 5 handed you can't wait for premium hands.

Good post, except folding is an equally good play given the info we have, we don't know about the aggressor or other peoples stacks so you can't rule out folding. What if the situation is you are on the button and there are 3 players left with less than 5,000 folding for sure is +EV because you have a strong shot at 2 shortstacks busting and the table merging giving you fresh life. There are too many situations possible that you simply can't say All in is the only play.

No, I think all in is the only play based on the info the OP gave. He is in the small blind, 2 folds, the button raises. I think folding is not an option, and all in is the only play based on the info given.

[Pupsta 0]

After reading through this entire thread, it became extremely obvious why I  make a very healthy second income playing poker.  I love the people who say it is a good idea to call and then push after the flop.  Yeah, great idea.  This way you can win the minimum and lose the maximum every time.  Good strategy.It is great that some people are this ignorant when it comes to no-limit tournament strategy.

No kidding, the old call and push play is how I build my stack a lot of the times. I would have folded the 33 in that spot, even if you think the guy is bluffing, he's got 2 overs on you. Not the best spot to be in. You've got the button next hand, wait for a better spot. NSXT2 talks a lot about defending your blind, and his best advice IMO is not to let pride get in the way, just fold and move on to the next hand.

there's no "pride" here...allin is absolutely correct, folding is marginally correct, call/push is moronically retarded. this has nothing to do with defending you blinds and everything to do with the quality of your hand, the position of the raiser, and stack sizes compared to the blinds. even 5 handed, if utg comes in for this raise, i'd consider folding, but would still probably push it.

[Pupsta 0]

Smash and his lapdog are correct (again) of course...

kinda burned by the lapdog comment...wtf is that supposed to mean? i don't suck up to smash...i'm giving my opinion here, and smash happens to agree with me, so i must be kissing his ass, eh?

[gadjet 11]

Smash and his lapdog are correct (again) of course...

kinda burned by the lapdog comment...wtf is that supposed to mean? i don't suck up to smash...i'm giving my opinion here, and smash happens to agree with me, so i must be kissing his ass, eh?

Take it easy man I was just playin... actually I just couldn't remember your name, but I knew it had pup in it... pup, puppy lapdog... just a joke man... no offense.

[Pupsta 0]

Smash and his lapdog are correct (again) of course...

kinda burned by the lapdog comment...wtf is that supposed to mean? i don't suck up to smash...i'm giving my opinion here, and smash happens to agree with me, so i must be kissing his ass, eh?

Take it easy man I was just playin... actually I just couldn't remember your name, but I knew it had pup in it... pup, puppy lapdog... just a joke man... no offense.

i was wondering if it was a play on my name or not...well done :)enough heat in this thread, i can't tell if it's a joke or not...

[gadjet 11]

OK, let's let the tourney pro get his say.  (sw)I personally think the OP made the exact correct play.  Chances are that this guy is on a steal play from the button, and the 3s is almost a semi bluff.  If he is stealing, then he will probably fold, and you add 26,000 to your stack.  If he is not stealing, then you are most likely in a race like you were.  Little bad luck, and you're out.  When the blinds are that high, you have to win a few races to get back in it.  I don't think folding is an option at all here.  You only have 11 BBs left, and 5 handed you can't wait for premium hands.

Good post, except folding is an equally good play given the info we have, we don't know about the aggressor or other peoples stacks so you can't rule out folding. What if the situation is you are on the button and there are 3 players left with less than 5,000 folding for sure is +EV because you have a strong shot at 2 shortstacks busting and the table merging giving you fresh life. There are too many situations possible that you simply can't say All in is the only play.

No, I think all in is the only play based on the info the OP gave. He is in the small blind, 2 folds, the button raises. I think folding is not an option, and all in is the only play based on the info given.

Then you're wrong. You're taking the info that backs your argument and ignoring a lot of other factors. Pushing is a good play, but there are a ton of situations that could more than justify a fold.

[zimmer4141 0]

What factors are these gadget? I am saying the play I would make in this specific situation. I am not saying to always push with 33 in the SB. I am saying that it is idiotic to do anything but push in this spot.

[wontbez 0]

After reading through this entire thread, it became extremely obvious why I  make a very healthy second income playing poker.  I love the people who say it is a good idea to call and then push after the flop.  Yeah, great idea.  This way you can win the minimum and lose the maximum every time.  Good strategy.It is great that some people are this ignorant when it comes to no-limit tournament strategy.

No kidding, the old call and push play is how I build my stack a lot of the times. I would have folded the 33 in that spot, even if you think the guy is bluffing, he's got 2 overs on you. Not the best spot to be in. You've got the button next hand, wait for a better spot. NSXT2 talks a lot about defending your blind, and his best advice IMO is not to let pride get in the way, just fold and move on to the next hand.

there's no "pride" here...allin is absolutely correct, folding is marginally correct, call/push is moronically retarded. this has nothing to do with defending you blinds and everything to do with the quality of your hand, the position of the raiser, and stack sizes compared to the blinds. even 5 handed, if utg comes in for this raise, i'd consider folding, but would still probably push it.

To clarify, I think the push and call is one of the worst plays in poker. I was stating that by taking advantage people who use it, I get chips. IMO folding puts you in a better spot to win, having the button at the start of the next blind level presents more opportunities, but pushing is fine.

[gadjet 11]

What factors are these gadget?  I am saying the play I would make in this specific situation.  I am not saying to always push with 33 in the SB.  I am saying that it is idiotic to do anything but push in this spot.

And I'm saying you're wrong to say that pushing is the only option. It's pretty simple, I know what you're saying and I know you've won 2 or 3 $20 MTT's lately... but if you can't think of any factors that might justify folding in this hand then I'm losing a little respect for you. Think hard, try and come up with some and then we'll compare notes... but seriously, think about it, it'll help your game, if you can come up with any elements that may affect your decision on the hand.P.S. I'm being totally honest here, thinking outside of our box can totally improve our own game... I'm not trying to be fasecious sp?.

[zimmer4141 0]

What factors are these gadget?  I am saying the play I would make in this specific situation.  I am not saying to always push with 33 in the SB.  I am saying that it is idiotic to do anything but push in this spot.

And I'm saying you're wrong to say that pushing is the only option. It's pretty simple, I know what you're saying and I know you've won 2 or 3 $20 MTT's lately... but if you can't think of any factors that might justify folding in this hand then I'm losing a little respect for you. Think hard, try and come up with some and then we'll compare notes... but seriously, think about it, it'll help your game, if you can come up with any elements that may affect your decision on the hand.P.S. I'm being totally honest here, thinking outside of our box can totally improve our own game... I'm not trying to be fasecious sp?.

I've won bigger than $20 MTTs, but that's beside the point. Folding is an option here, as it is on every decision. I would only justify folding if my table was extremely weak, and I thought I could win a lot more by avoiding big pots and stealing constantly. However, this guy didn't sound like he had control of his table, so I would advocate for him to go all in.

[gadjet 11]

I've won bigger than $20 MTTs, but that's beside the point.  Folding is an option here, as it is on every decision.  I would only justify folding if my table was extremely weak, and I thought I could win a lot more by avoiding big pots and stealing constantly.  However, this guy didn't sound like he had control of his table, so I would advocate for him to go all in.

Well that's a start and that's all I was asking for... true in my mind the majority of these low limit tournies are majorly weak and in the same way Ivey should've yesterday, avoiding all ins (without a monster) against bigger stacks is something I keep in mind.Other elements might be the image of the agressor, if you are watching the player and he hasn't mad a move in 25 minutes and all the sudden he comes in for 1/3 to 1/4 of his chips maybe there's a better spot. The other table should be giving you a player soon to make it 6 and 6 players, keep that table open and watch the stack sizes and levels of aggression. Sometimes you can tell it won't be long before the tables merge.You will have the button next hand, giving you the chance to lead out on uncontested pots. You have 3 hands (maybe 4 if they reorganize tables) to steal blinds be the aggressor when everyone will be playing tight. There may be some short stacks on your left that you can pressure.etc etc... all I'm saying is yes, it was the big blind who raised, but it's a solid raise, there are a ton of elelments to be considering at all times that could affect the decision.In an extreme example, what if there were 4 players with only 100 chips on the two tables, obviously you're going to fold and not risk exiting the tourney early.

[Hand_Cracker 0]

OK, im play mtt with 930 entrants and its a 30 dollar buy-in. 12 people remain and the blinds are 3000/6000 and i have 67,000 after posting my sb. The action is folded over too the button who raises it to 20,000. I have pocket 3's and decide to re-raise all-in based on the blinds increasing to 4000/8000 and my m. After his raise he has around 58,000 left so he barely has me covered. We are playing 5 handed and the other table has 7. I figured he might be trying to steal the blinds since they are increasing and his m will decrease as well. He calls and shows AhQh and he flops a Q. I read in Harringtons new book about a similiar problem and he said it was the right move to make because towards the end of the tournament everything revolves around m. Would anyone disagree with this move??

you made the right move despite what some of these donks are saying.at this stage of the tournament you have to make a move ESPECIALLY with the blinds going up. unless you were positive you would catch a pair or big cards in the next 3 hands(which you can never be positive obviously)

[elaear 0]

People DO understand that the Stop-and-Go is designed for big pairs (AA, KK) that become overpairs when the flop hits... right?a small pair is one of the worst possible hands to make this play with.and Zimmer basically just sum'd up the correct responses in this thread... so just read that and move on

wrong... so wrong... so very wrong.

[lew189 0]

There are many players who play the game differently then the books and the math would advise. I know, they pay for my car.

I have to tell you people, Smash is easily my favorite poster. There is no close second. Ok, that's not true. Jayson Weber is a close second but only because of his avatar.

[macphec 0]

Tough spot but I think pushing is ok here as you are most likely up against overs. You have to accumulate chips and take some risk sif you want to win and any pair is good a good hand at this stage. Plus he may have folded to your reraise.I think Harrington says low pkt pairs play poorly when your M is in that zone though.

[Randy Reed 0]

This is weird though. Two of the biggest strategy threads lately have involved having 33 in the blind. In limit everyone was against defending against a raise with 33, but in no limit everyone advocates throwing away the tourney with it. Hmmmm. Like me and a few others have mentioned, I think this is one those, "it depends" cases. If I can hunker down and steal some blinds and buy myself a few more spots up the rung and look for a better spot, then I think I would.

[speedz99 145]

I didn't have the time to read through 5 pages. Anyone suggest a stop&go? Call the bet, and move all-in regardless of the flop. In this case you still would have lost, but it is a good method to get someone to fold who would have called all-in preflop.

[gadjet 11]

I didn't have the time to read through 5 pages. Anyone suggest a stop&go? Call the bet, and move all-in regardless of the flop. In this case you still would have lost, but it is a good method to get someone to fold who would have called all-in preflop.

Yes, basically summed up with:Doing a stop and go with 3's will win you a small pot and lose you a big one.