if raymer wins the main event...

[TraptSteve 0]

Yes it would definately be up there. He could then go on to write a strategy book on tournament poker. Perhaps he would title it Raymer Style: Getting heads up w/ A-A preflop 6 times late in the tournament and winning every coinflip situation.

I stand that my quote was the best of all. Bow 8)

[krup24 0]

...would it be considered the greatest poker achievement of all time??

Without a doubt

[fatmanonguitar 0]

I'm sorry. Anyone who is arguing the OP's suggestion is simply a delusional devil's advocate.While I think it's jumping the gun with over 100 players left, give Raymer the credit he deserves. Just being chip leader with 2% of the field remaining after taking it down last year is mind-boggling. If he wins this thing he can silence any critic forever. I'm rooting for Fossilman.

[snakster 0]

I agree that it would have to be considered the greatest achievement if he can pull it off. I don't understand the Raymer critics not wanting to acknowledge this.You can say that it is the greatest feat without saying that he is the greatest player. It IS possible to seperate the two. IF he can hold on, you MUST give the man his due for the accomplishment.

[chindi 0]

Yes J.C. going 1 - 1 - 2 was amazing.Yes J.C. and D.B.'s comined 20 bracelets talks of longevity like no other.Yes D.N.'s 2004 run was simply amazing.But if Raymer were to take down back - to - back ME titles, against fields that set and then reset the record for # of entrants? That would be the most amazing thing ever, hands down. It wouldn't be a mark of longevity or performance over time, but you'd have to say it was the most astounding achievement in tournament poker history. Yes it's been done before with smaller fields, and yes luck plays more of a factor before than ever before... but there are also deep fields of really good players both established pros and guys who weren't established but have very strong games (guys like Fishman last year) mixed in with the dross. And the dross is dangerous as hell too, given the number of guys who are getting taken out by these landmines. So combine skill, with a bit of luck and just enough cards not to get wrecked by the 'dead money'.. two years in a row... that's pretty legendary performance.And say what you will about Raymer last year, he did EXACTLY what a big stack is supposed to do, bully bully bully. Yes he caught lucky in several spots, but he never really got smaked down and in each of those cases if he'd lost the damage to his stack would have been relatievly minor. Maybe he would have tightened up if he had lost one of those situations/gotten significantly hurt... none of us can say.

[whippedspoon 0]

It would be the greatest accomplishment. This is a tournament of attrition. It takes skill but it's a battle too. For him to be the chip leader after Day 3...that's pretty unbelievable. Add to that the pressure of being the defending champion and having ESPN (and others) cameras following you around all week..geez.I'd love to see Raymer at the final table. Raymer and Phil Ivey would be great for ratings.

[Smasharoo 0]

If Raymer wins, it makes all of you Stu Ungar worshippers look like complete morons.Well, even more so.

[Guest Anonymous]

...would it be considered the greatest poker achievement of all time??

I'd buy his book if he repeated.

[Mandelbrot 0]

Chances of Raymer repeating: about 5%Chances of Raymer getting mugged again if he repeats: 50%

[Jeff 0]

Raymer's current achievement is remarkable, but as I scanned the logs it seems like he is getting great cards. AA against TT, QQ against JJ, AA again against KK... regardless of how good a player you are, you still need cards. last year he won almost every race... I'm not even going to mention the great cards that Moneymaker was able to pull the year before...

[fatmanonguitar 0]

Raymer's current achievement is remarkable, but as I scanned the logs it seems like he is getting great cards. AA against TT, QQ against JJ, AA again against KK... regardless of how good a player you are, you still need cards. last year he won almost every race... I'm not even going to mention the great cards that Moneymaker was able to pull the year before...

Whatever. Obviously poker (tournaments especially) requires luck. But no-one is lucky enough to fluke their way to the top of consecutive 2500 and 6000 player tournament fields. Maybe he's playing his good cards optimally. Or making timely steals. Or has made some key big laydowns. We don't hear what cardplayer doesn't feed us.I don't know if some people are instinctively jealous or are just compelled to take an argumentative stance.Again, Go Raymer. Why? Good story. I really couldn't give a fluck who takes the money home.

[Pokerdad2222 0]

I will cut my own throat

[tobytobey 0]

Chances of Raymer repeating: about 5%Chances of Raymer getting mugged again if he repeats: 50%

lol

[ek703 0]

It seems that this debate occurs in every form of competitive activity. Who is the greatest ever? what is the greatest accomplishment? I love doing this as well, but each event/player should be placed in his/her/its historical context. IMO if Raymer pulls it off, it would be a shining example of how poker is not all "luck." Of course in MTT cards are an important part of your chances of winning, but in NL hold'em it only takes 1,2,3, or last year it would have been 27 mistakes for you to lose it all. Claiming that cards are what determines the outcome makes me curious as to why you are not posting on a roulette forum. sorry that is a bit harsh, but don't belittle a very successful player, its a bit puerile.

[snakster 0]

I will cut my own throat

If only.

[Briguy 0]

Would it make him better than Moneymaker? Chris went all-in holding a short (but blindable) stack with 7-2 sooooted! That's a play I could never make; I'm such a weak player.

[cashinnow 0]

Raymer has already defeated more people than anyother player in WSOP main event history (and maybe the entire WSOP alltogether). The huge numbers the past two years confirm that! I know that don't mean a whole bunch (he has outlasted around 8000 people in the past Two years). To go this deep in a tourney the year after Winning against the biggest field ever is quite an accomplishment. He has the pressure of being last years winner and a very recognizable face at the tourney. Who hasn't looked for his or Moneymaker names on the chip count boards just to see how there doing? Raymer is the face of poker to the newer players and what he is doing now is an awesome feet. I hope the haters don't try to diminish what he has accomplished, he has had a good WSOP this year(1 final table earlier) and the run he is on now is incredible. If Ivey, Lederer, Matasow, and Raymer all make the final table it could be one of the most watched poker T.V. shows ever. No matter where he finishes now he has done great. I hope he at least makes the final table and ends up heads-up against Ivey or Matasow. After last year, if Raymer beat Mike, it would be funny! All I know for sure is that I am jealous of whoever wins this year!!

[Guest Anonymous]

Chances of Raymer repeating: about 5%Chances of Raymer getting mugged again if he repeats: 50%

He was mugged once already after winning the first one. Apparantly he attacked his two muggers and scared them off. So I'd say its unlikely someone will try that again. Would you want Raymer coming at you with both fists swinging?Edit, link added:http://www.bodogbeat.com/archives/2004_12.html

[Black99 0]

Greg only needs 53,900,000 more chips to win this thing!!However, being the chip leader with less than 200 players out of 5600 is an amazing achievement in itself. He is one of the best NL MTT players, period. However, he would be the first to admit that ANYONE who wins this thing, must get lucky or at the very least, must avoid getting unlucky. All will agree that Phil Ivey is a great player... well if his gets AA and comes up against a player with 99 who pushes pre-flop and there is a 9 on this flop, he will go broke. That is the way it is. The same is true of Raymer. The key is not running into one of these unlucky beats. The other key is havng you 88 hold up against two over cards against small stacks pushing all in. It is about not getting unlucky and getting your share of luck.I have not seen any logs of Raymer getting extremely lucky, flopping sets against overpairs etc (I may be wrong)...Black 99

[Bigkspec 0]

Comments that cite Greg Raymer as incredibly lucky last year don't consider the whole picture. Raymer built up his chips with a aggressive and fearless style. ESPN shows about 10% of the hands--it's not good for ratings to show Raymer raise, fold, fold, fold. But it is good for ratings to see showdowns and suckouts. Let's not base judgment on seeing so few hands and missing the ones in between that set up those situations. Raymer increased his chip stack from 5 to 8 million when there were 10 players remaining. That's the edge that gave him the dominant lead at the final table. That's not suckouts or lucky, that's just a smart poker player taking advantage of the "TV/Final Table Bubble." If you want to call him a card catcher, don't also forget to mention his solid play and his ability to shift gears after so many of his hands were televised last year. I bet there are plenty of other players catching goods cards and not being able to maximize the benefit as well as he is right now. A repeat? Without a doubt, the great poker achievement ever.

[happyjuggler0 0]

PokerStars will say it is the best ever. :wink: Phil Ivey is my pick at the moment to win it though, if I had to pick a single player to win it.As for the poster who said that Ivey is a final table guy, not a winner, all I can say is you must have missed the $10,000 Pot Limit Omaha bracelet he won about a week ago.

[kapsig08 0]

where is everyone getting the latest updates on the world series as we speak?? I would like to know whats going on??

[jooka 0]

probable should make this its own thread but will toss it in here instead, but if raymer does become this years winner, how many hands do you think he will have to play to finish off the field?btw, i hope he can pull it off honestly. It would also be the biggest poker acomplishment in history in my book.

[cjmjones008 0]

I'd love to see Raymer at the final table. Raymer and Phil Ivey would be great for ratings.

Yeah like no one is going to tune in when the final table is a bunch of no names... Or wait wasn't last year primarily no names or low named pros? All the shows leading up to it will cause big enough ratings the 2 big names wouldn't do much more. Especially since you will be able to view the final table about 500 times in the next year on ESPN.

[sotoman 0]

RAYMER ROCKS... and i got pics and autographs and everything...woohoo!