how to play aqo with many limpers

[UglyJimStudly 0]

I understand the argument that i should raise because i probably hold the best hand preflop.

Actually, I wouldn't bet on that. There could be a better hand, and it's near certain there's one or two hands that are close to even with you preflop. The reason for the raise is because there's also four or more hands that are much, much worse than you so there's a ton of basically dead money in the pot. The raise hopefully gets those players to put even more dead money in the pot. You don't have to win this hand every time - or even a majority of the time - for the raise to make sense.

[slash 0]

Let's say you're in a full ring limit holdem game. Six people have already limped in before you. You are in late position with AQo. Any suggestions on what would be the best move here?

Very carefully.Your hand doesn't play very well multiway. Harman's point is that what is your raise going to do - drive people out of the pot when they're getting 8-1 or better to call your raise with middle suited connectors, small and middle pairs, etc.? Not likely, especially at low limits. If I've limped into that pot with 89s, I'm loving your raise, especially if I get something to play with on the flop like an OESFD.A call is OK in some spots, and a raise is fine too, I think you have to know a bit more about the table other than just that 6 people have limped in. Are the blinds going to defend? Are you going to fold out a weak-tight player who limped in before you? Are you going to be able to buy the button?In an average 5-10 game, I'm probably raising with AQo, but I'm playing very carefully if the flop doesn't fall my way. More than likely the flop is a raise/fold situation, especially if you don't hit and there are several checks up front and a bet from MP. Raise the flop then to thin the field and maybe get your free river if the turn doesn't help you catch up. But there are plenty of places that you're going to want to fold on the flop if you miss, too.

[BeanGW 0]

I doubt she wrote that with .50/1 limit in mind where people limp in first position with K5 offsuit.

My sentiments exactly. SuperSystem is NOT/NOT to be confused with SSHE by any means. Applying high stakes strategies to low limit games can be quite -EV.Many strategies are constants and can be used in a variety of stakes, but limping with A-Q in late position is absolutely not one of them.

[rexmundi 0]

Let's say you're in a full ring limit holdem game. Six people have already limped in before you. You are in late position with AQo. Any suggestions on what would be the best move here?

i think raising here is wrong.. why put in an extra bet when you dont have to? i'd limp and see a cheap flop, if i miss, i can fold with losing one half BB.. why create a pot where anyone who gets a piece of the flop now has correct odds to call down to the river.. they'd all be correct to do so.. if i limp, and hit top pair on the flop, and people STILL call down to the river looking to improve, depending on what they're drawing to they're probably making a mistake..i know most of the posts before this said raise.. i dont care.. play them how ya'll want..

[justblaze 0]

Let's say you're in a full ring limit holdem game. Six people have already limped in before you. You are in late position with AQo. Any suggestions on what would be the best move here?

i think raising here is wrong.. why put in an extra bet when you dont have to? i'd limp and see a cheap flop, if i miss, i can fold with losing one half BB.. why create a pot where anyone who gets a piece of the flop now has correct odds to call down to the river.. they'd all be correct to do so.. if i limp, and hit top pair on the flop, and people STILL call down to the river looking to improve, depending on what they're drawing to they're probably making a mistake..i know most of the posts before this said raise.. i dont care.. play them how ya'll want..

pot equity. its mathematically correct to raise here. the problem is that this is assuming you can play competently postflop, which most low limit players cannot.

[Smasharoo 0]

You guys are KILLINNG me.It's an easy raise. Stop giving donkeys too much credit. Stop folding good hands in huge pots where there are obvious cards on the board that beat you. Stop not expoiting HUGE equity advantages IN POSITION.I'd raise AJo here, KQo, KJs, etc. etc.

[justblaze 0]

You guys are KILLINNG me.It's an easy raise.  Stop giving donkeys too much credit.  Stop folding good hands in huge pots where there are obvious cards on the board that beat you.  Stop not expoiting HUGE equity advantages IN POSITION.I'd raise AJo here, KQo, KJs, etc. etc.

KJs is the devil. :evil:

[Fluffyfrog 0]

I do know that SS2 is not intended for micro/lowlimits. But considering that she uses a lot of time to go through the basics of the game, i wouldn't say that those advice are given only to the highstakesplayers out there. As she says, she is giving simple guidelines. This was one of them, under "General Hand Selection Advice for Late position". She says nothing about which stakes this advice is meant for. In my opinion, the first part of her limit-section (where this situation is covered) is not written for players who already know a lot about holdem, as it is quite basic.I play lowlimit myself, 2/4. Situations similar to this one with AQo happens from time to time at Party. I see there are different opinions to this matter, but from what i've read in this post it seems to me as if i should raise this hand on the limit i play. If i some day were to play at higher stakes (shall we say 100/200 and up? ) i should be less inclined to raise due to the fact that players are better....or what?

[slash 0]

I want to play 100/200 with you if you aren't going to raise AQo preflop in that game. Then again, I like money.

[TheIceman05 0]

Oddly enough, Sklansky has FREQUENTLY advocated just limping in this pot. Like Jen Harman, he always argued that the pot-equity you gain from raising here against bad players is swallowed because a flop bet from late position suddenly gives gut-shot draws the odds to call correctly. If they flop the same draw and you bet the flop, they'll STILL call, but now they'll be doing so incorrectly (and paying you off in the long run).For what it's worth, I've always thought he's wrong. The collective equity edge you gain by making 5 or 6 players make ANOTHER mistake by calling a preflop raise easily makes up for the equity you lose post-flop when somebody's call goes from 'wrong' to 'right'Ice

[Smasharoo 0]

For what it's worth, I've always thought he's wrong. He says in SSHE that he was wrong.Well, as best a Sklansky can."Me and Mason don't play in games with donkeys, but Ed does and we cn see where he's coming from in those donkey games you should maybe, possibly raise AQo in the BB if it's 83 limps to you, but me Mason were of course right about games with better players, equivocation, to put it another way, getting the best of it, listen to ED."

[DeNuts1 0]

You guys who always quote SS2 kill me. Jen Harman is playing a little over your heads. When the majority of you get up to 5/10 read SS. Until then raise with f'n AQoff in this situation.

[guacamole 0]

AQo has got to be a raise if you are playing the low limits. If you make top pair, you have a good kicker and your opponents probably won't have many outs. You don't really need to protect your hand.I think AJo is a lot more interesting. If you don't make a pair, you are going to lose since someone else is going to pair the flop. If you make a pair of jacks, you are vulnerable to overcards, and must protect your hand. But you won't be able to, because the pot is way to big. Also, your equity is a lot less pre-flop, so I don't think raising can be right. In a 6 handed pot, probably 45s has as much (or more) equity than AJo since at least you know where you are after the flop. This is assuming your opponents don't play the very worst hands like J5o, etc. - give them credit for at least connecting or suited cards.On the other hand, if you play AJo, and flop an ace, your hand is probably good.

[UglyJimStudly 0]

If i some day were to play at higher stakes (shall we say 100/200 and up? )  i should be less inclined to raise due to the fact that players are better.

I dunno if there's much of an intersection between (the set of better players) and (the set of players in games where six people limp preflop). I kinda think JH's advice is actually directed at the complete novice rather than for players with a bit of experience, since post-flop play will be a big factor in determining whether you make a bunch of money with the hand. For a novice it may well be a better idea to limp and see if you get a friendly flop. But once you've got the basics down, it's hard to see why you wouldn't want to get the people limping with 58o and J2s to toss in more money now, because the flop might bring them to their senses. They're making a mistake by tossing money in in the first place, might as well see if they'll compound it.

[rexmundi 0]

Jenny's wrong unless it's a game where it's normally 2 or 3  to the flop and the occasional fluke hand occurs where there are 6 people limping in.In a normal low limit game you give up WAY too much not raising the flop.

how can you say jenny's wrong? a person would be foolish to listen to smasharoos advice over harmons.. ..it's the difference b/w taking a pros advice on how to play a hand vs an amateur..

[jayboogie 0]

I'm in the minority here but I limp in with AK and AQ offsuit with 5 or 6 players in the pot ahead of me. First of all your hand does not play well multi-way and second of all you still have a drawing hand that needs to hit in order for you to win. Your raise won't get any players out of the pot either, so it only builds a pot where chasers get the right odds to chase down. If an Ace, King/Queen flops, you likely won't get action unless your beat. Then there's also the times that your likely to be outdrawn when theres a flush draw or straight draw on the board to go with your Ace or King/Queen. Also, what kinda game are you talking about here? Low Limit where ppl play any 2 cards or a higher limit where this would happen not too often? The games I'm talking about are the higher games where usually ppl don't limp in with trash. If your playing against weaker players, it'd be ok to raise it if you can play it well post-flop.

[custom36 4]

Jenny's wrong unless it's a game where it's normally 2 or 3  to the flop and the occasional fluke hand occurs where there are 6 people limping in.In a normal low limit game you give up WAY too much not raising the flop.

how can you say jenny's wrong? a person would be foolish to listen to smasharoos advice over harmons.. ..it's the difference b/w taking a pros advice on how to play a hand vs an amateur..

Here's how he can say she's wrong:She's not talking about PartyPokerish games. She's talking about decent games where people are making deceptive plays and can play postflop. Unless you're at a shark table (which is a really stupid decision in itself), you RAISE.

[Abbaddabba 0]

Far too many people these days ONLY raise to narrow the field. It's like they've been scared shitless after all those bad beats and can't stand to voluntarily put more money in until they've made their big hand. It's hilarious when people only raise with roughly 2 or 3 hands in a limit ring game, even when it's short handed. Don't get me wrong htough, i have absolutely no problem with that.

[Guest]

I signed up to this forum to debate this question.It is clear that most of you have grown up on NL as opposed to Limit. Talking about "making them pay" for draws and bad hands is not taking into account the total picture. When you effectively double the size of the pot by raising here you are creating a pot that players should chase with overcards and inside str8 draws, even bottom pair should take a card off here. Sure, the bad players would play these hands anyhow, but once you make the pot so big they are actually playing mathematically correctly by chasing. Jharman is exactly right when she discusses how hard it is to get AQ to hold up against 6 players. You basically need to flop a hand better than one pair for your hand to hold up.Limping here is a standard play. Dosent matter the stakes of the game, be it $.01/.02 or $100/200, it's the amount of limpers that makes this a limp, not the stakes of the game. You will be folding a large majority of the time on the flop anyhow.glYD

[TucsonMonster 0]

I think a raise in this position is NOT worth it. It is only limit, meaning that its really good chances that every single limper will call you. Now you are trying to play against 5-6 other hands, with only a marginal hand. Donkey wise-its not even suited.lol. The chances of you raising and getting the people out of the pot is slim, and the chances of even making it the best hand even slimmer.FORD

[TheIceman05 0]

I signed up    to this forum to debate this question.It is clear that most of you have grown up on NL as opposed to Limit.  Talking about "making them pay" for draws and bad hands is not taking into account the total picture.  When you effectively double the size of the pot by raising here you are creating a pot that players should chase with overcards and inside str8 draws, even bottom pair should take a card off here.   Sure, the bad players would play these hands anyhow, but once you make the pot so big they are actually playing mathematically correctly by chasing.   Jharman is exactly right when she discusses how hard it is to get AQ to hold up against 6 players.  You basically need to flop a hand better than one pair for your hand to hold up.Limping here is a standard play.  Dosent matter the stakes of the game, be it $.01/.02 or $100/200, it's the amount of limpers that makes this a limp, not the stakes of the game.    You will be folding a large majority of the time  on the flop anyhow.glYD

If you flop top pair with AQ, and someone's chasing with overcards, are you happy, sad, or indifferent?Giving somebody the correct pot-odds to run down his gutshot draw is unfortunate, but if you're playing against weak players that are limping with garbage hands, it's worth it to punish all the weak limpers for an extra small bet. The situation you're describing only arises when 1) You're ahead on the flop, but vulnerable2) Your opponent flops a draw such he'd need a price greater than 7-1, but less than 13-1 to correctly call3) No opponent is calling deadThis is likely not nearly as likely as you think. If there's a bet ahead of you, you can punish a big portion of the field by raising. If somebody picks up a back-door flush draw and a few other crazy draws (shrug) it happens. But if somebody ELSE is running down the same back-door flush draw, you're coming out WAY ahead.Raise. For. Value.Ice

[TheIceman05 0]

I think a raise in this position is NOT worth it.  It is only limit, meaning that its really good chances that every single limper will call you.  Now you are trying to play against 5-6 other hands, with only a marginal hand.  

Since when is AQo a "marginal hand?" Ice

[Dhall901 0]

who plays limit? lol. I suppose though with 6 other guys still in, a raise isn't going to scare anyone off, so raising would be pointless. Of course if you want to build the pot in case 10 J K flops, go for it. I'd limp to see the flop. Of course if you were a real man you'd be playing no limit and go all in with AQ in late position, lol i joke i joke.D

[TheIceman05 0]

who plays limit? lol. I suppose though with 6 other guys still in, a raise isn't going to scare anyone off, so raising would be pointless.

.... are you real? Do you believe this?? I feel like I'm turning into a brachiasaurus or something.Ice

[custom36 4]

who plays limit? lol. I suppose though with 6 other guys still in, a raise isn't going to scare anyone off, so raising would be pointless. Of course if you want to build the pot in case 10 J K flops, go for it. I'd limp to see the flop. Of course if you were a real man you'd be playing no limit and go all in with AQ in late position, lol i joke i joke.D

If that entire post isn't a joke, you suck.