challenge match #5: daniel vs. barry greenstein

[mrdannyg 274]

Heads up matches are the closest thing to the many of the advanced game theoretical models of poker. Anytime you have a known bet size, you can reduce the the complexity of the linear equations substainally.  Barry, a mathematican, who plays $4000-$8000 all the time, would have a firm grasp on the linear equations resulting from a $4000-$8000 bet size. .

Do you have any idea what YOU are even talking about?

he clearly has advanced knowledge on what he is talking about. i would agree with a later poster though that at that level, the players are much less likely to mathematically calculate optimal strategies. and yes i realize everything can be inputted into a mathematical formula, but i bet barry only thinks about optimal play and similar topics indirectly within a heads-up match.heads-up, a purely mathematical approach loses much of its benefit in relation to a 10-handed NL or PL cash game.

[monoatomic 0]

This makes little sense.It's not as if Daniel is sitting there while playing heads up thinking to himself," you know, the linear equation of +EV vs the non linear bill fillmaff approach is really boggling my mind right now. You see if I go dumpster diving with AJK but Barry counters with donkey drawing A23 I might have to pull a reverse implied odds to counter act his hidden ace flying dragon."Are you listening to yourself?It's poker, heads up. I seriously doubt Daniel is thinking about "linear equations"

[CodyHartman 0]

Harvey good post and ideas IMHO. Someone who's thinking outside of the box (or poker table for that matter) about what the stakes really mean for these guys. What is your education on this topic or did you pull it out of yer AS$ (j/k) 8) :wink: :wink: However I would think the stakes are set at 4k/8k because of the time factor and how many big bets they have each. I mean it would be nice to see this game be 2k/4k or even 1k/2k but honestly that would take much longer to find an end to the game. From the sounds of it DN has an idea of what the stakes would be set at for any game at any price (atleast at the 100k, 200k, 250k, 300k, 400k, & 500k levels including NL or PL) so once the match is set at a particular amount of buy in then the stakes set themselves up from there w/o any thought. :? :? :? :?But I do think DN has had enough experience at most levels of poker though that there should be NONE to a little edge for either player. :- :wink : ) :shock: Just a couple of thoughts/2 red cents though.Also does anyone know what the antes (if they have them, you would think so since it is Stud), and bring in are for the match???Co-D

[SuM827 0]

Well, they are of many, many variables that would take a very long time to solve without having most of it solved already..

Yeah, but I'm sure that if BG regularly implements Linear equations in the manner you suggested, he'd simply be able to make a few adjustments in an equation he regularly uses, and probably be able to guess the optimal strategy based on experience with said equation.

[monoatomic 0]

Why don't they just play blindfolded using their linear equations seeing as how you don't actually need to see your cards or get any sense of betting patterns or your opponent when playing in a heads up match.

[harvey 0]

Are you listening to yourself?

well, I usually don't talk to myself when I post if thats what you mean (or maybe this was a rhetorical question again)...but I do have a nice clicky-sounding keyboard if thats what you mean..First off all its just an idea... its not a big deal.Second of all,Even if Daniel doesn't think about "fancy linear equations" or whatever while he's playing poker. He would be thinking about what BARRY is thinking about, as most top pros do, and since Barry may be thinking about some game theory, Daniel could blunt a possible weapon by springing a different structure on Barry. Daniel doesn't get to choose much about the game, but it seems that he is in charge of setting the limit which he could use to his advantage. Or maybe it doesn' t matter, whatever.

Why don't they just play blindfolded using their linear equations seeing as how you don't actually need to see your cards or get any sense of betting patterns or your opponent when playing in a heads up match.

Optimal strategies factor in card strength...

What is your education on this topic or did you pull it out of yer AS$

I like to read about math. Engineer by education. The only reason I play poker is because I like thinking about the math problems... and taking money from fish on occasion :-) I'm no expert though so take anything I say with a grain of salt. I. still have alot to learn about game theory and stuff.

[SuM827 0]

Why don't they just play blindfolded using their linear equations seeing as how you don't actually need to see your cards or get any sense of betting patterns or your opponent when playing in a heads up match.

Why don't you keep making stupid posts on topics you know nothing about? If you actually READ my posts, I'm saying that no equation or formula that BG comes up with would really affect the outcome of the match, and the fact that they're playing at Barry's usual 4k-8k limits doesn't help him much because the math doesn't change much when you alter the limits. That, and a player of DN's caliber that doesn't get that deep into the math is at that level because he's able to infer what the mathematicians calculate using their equations.

[Newbs 0]

This makes little sense.It's not as if Daniel is sitting there while playing heads up thinking to himself," you know, the linear equation of +EV vs the non linear bill fillmaff approach is really boggling my mind right now. You see if I go dumpster diving with AJK but Barry counters with donkey drawing A23 I might have to pull a reverse implied odds to counter act his hidden ace flying dragon."Are you listening to yourself?It's poker, heads up. I seriously doubt Daniel is thinking about  "linear equations"

[CodyHartman 0]

I think Greenstein definitely has the edge in Razz, should they play that dreadful game.  Greenstein probably has better tuned math skills for Razz, not to say it'll be a cakewalk for him.Daniel is making it awfully obvious as to what he thinks he doesn't have the edge in.  Not any form of Hold'em, not Limit Omaha (high or H/L), and not stud (high or H/L).  That leaves Pot Limit Omaha and Razz.  Thoughts?

Good analysis... I'd say Razz between those two, Daniel's pretty strong in Omaha from what I've read.Who wants to be good at Razz though? I mean... it's Sadistic in every sense.

1st: Who would want to be good at Razz? Well honestly ME. I mean if you can make $$ at any game, no matter how brutal or "sadistic," then GO FOR IT. I mean someone out there will pay ya off b/c they suck at the game and are trying it out. Might as well be me (or you for that matter, as long as you save some of their $$ fer me man) :shock: 8) :wink: :wink: :-) 2nd: (My MAIN Point) Both of you have some good ideas BUT do we really know or think DN would be at ANY disadvantage to BG at Razz?? I would think that Razz would not be too bad of an event for DN. Here's why... If DN was worried about Barry's Stud game then he wouldn't be playing him in Stud, right? Well Razz is not very different then regular Stud Hi in my semi educated opinion about the 2 games). If ya think about it your reads are similar, as well your thought process, if not the same, and remebering skills all good Stud Hi players have (in fact you may need less in this game b/c it is HU). DN has cashed in a Razz event at the WSOP, but who knows about $$ games. I mean they don't seem to play at all in "The Big Game," it's never mentioned in DN's writings about the game & I according to HendonMob database BG hasn't done anything in tourney RazzURL: http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=4739. But who knows about cash games he has played in (or DN too). He does have a handful of cashes and WSOP final tables in other types of Lowball games, 2-7 ( 5k rebuy bracelet last year) & A-5 draw. But are these enough to give us ANY (???) idea of Greenstein's Razz game, since those Lowball games are different, overall, much less an advantage over DN??? So IMO their is should be NO real disadvantage, atleast from past tourney cashes for each of them, but like I said who knows about cash games? The only DN only disadvantage I can think of that DN MAY to Barry (and who knows) could be HU experience at Razz.Honestly, I don't know much about BG and Razz, outside of my net reading and tv watching of poker. These are some ideas and thoughts swirling through my mind about any advantage either player may have in Razz. Maybe someone else has insight on DN & BG's Razz cash game experience/ winnings?? :? :? :? :? (I'd doubt it though, since noone really talks much about their winnings in cash games).Co-D P.S. I edited this post for length and a thought about DN's 2nd bracelet, which I thought was in H.O.R.S.E (b/c of the Razz element in that game). But I was wrong, he won a bracelet in S.H.O.E, so I took it out.

[Mojolang 0]

Barry would be a good favorite in Razz, PLO, but the game where his edge would be biggest is 2-7 NL. Barry alluded to it and daniel said there is one game where he would be concerned. Thats it.pzJoe

[hoosierAKs 0]

This makes little sense.It's not as if Daniel is sitting there while playing heads up thinking to himself," you know, the linear equation of +EV vs the non linear bill fillmaff approach is really boggling my mind right now. You see if I go dumpster diving with AJK but Barry counters with donkey drawing A23 I might have to pull a reverse implied odds to counter act his hidden ace flying dragon."Are you listening to yourself?It's poker, heads up. I seriously doubt Daniel is thinking about  "linear equations"

First of all, that was ****ing hilarious Second of all, I agree 100%. As much as harvey CLEARLY seems to know what he's talking about as far as math goes, I think it's a blatant case of over-analyzing the situation to be looking into "linear equations" and the such.Sometimes I wonder if pros look at stuff like the Poker Theory forum on 2+2 and just laugh, as if al that mundane, ultra-specific/technical math, in the end, means absolutely nothing.Probability, pot odds, implied odds, EV... the only math in poker that really matters is that simple math, such as these four "beginner" concepts. Some people might think that this is absurd, that poker can be broken down into a list of mathematical concepts that goes on for pages and pages, but I just don't see it.It's all about playing the cards and far more importantly, playing your opponent(s). It's said time and time again, but I guess some people still disagree with it.Think... how many times you'll hear a good player say "I could just TELL he didn't have a hand", compared to "well after mapping out the linear equation of blabalhalbalhalbhalhalbhlla, i determined that it was highly unlikely that he had a hand"my random-ass $0.02.

[OrangeKing 0]

Sometimes I wonder if pros look at stuff like the Poker Theory forum on 2+2 and just laugh' date=' as if al that mundane' date=' ultra-specific/technical math, in the end, means absolutely nothing.Probability, pot odds, implied odds, EV... the only math in poker that [b'']really[/b] matters is that simple math, such as these four "beginner" concepts. Some people might think that this is absurd, that poker can be broken down into a list of mathematical concepts that goes on for pages and pages, but I just don't see it..

There's more math in the game then that, but I think you're right in a sense - a lot of it is pretty hard to use once you're at the table, unless you can bring your laptop with you. I don't think the professionals think theory is silly, and I'd wager that Daniel knows (and thinks about) a lot more of the math behind poker than most people give him credit for.Edit: And in theory, you could build a computer that nobody would be able to beat in the long run, and it wouldn't have to adjust to anyone's play - it would just find the overall "optimal" play for every situation. But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this computer to exist.

[yeffy 0]

Barry would be a good favorite in Razz, PLO, but the game where his edge would be biggest is 2-7 NL. Barry alluded to it and daniel said there is one game where he would be concerned. Thats it.pzJoe

Actually, Daniel said in a Cardplayer interview that PLO was the game he didn't want to play, and the game where he feels Barry has the edge.

[mrdannyg 274]

Why don't they just play blindfolded using their linear equations seeing as how you don't actually need to see your cards or get any sense of betting patterns or your opponent when playing in a heads up match.

you clearly are in fact the one with your head up your ass. linear equations are not just the things we learned back in grade 3. anything can be input into a mathematical equation, and many of the best poker players are such because they automatically consider things in terms of expected value and optimal strategies by implicitly considering linear equations. they aren't sitting there with their slide rules (to be honest i'm not sure what that is, but it sounds good) figuring out what x is, but they are certainy considering linear equations.your cards are one of the main factors of such an equation. your and your opponent's betting patterns are other factors. sorry i don't have the advanced math background to go into more detail, but perhaps you should stick to topics you have an idea about.daniel

[statedogg 0]

Daniel doesn't get to choose much about the game, but it seems that he is in charge of setting the limit which he could use to his advantage. Or maybe it doesn' t matter, whatever.

If that is the case and Daniel is indeed thinking Barry is using linear equations to dictate his play why not just make the game No Limit, then you take the linear characteristic out of the equations.Or maybe Daniel wants Barry to use linear equations so he can use them against Barry. Which brings me to my theory...none of this matters. Daniel is memorizing the hands barry is playing. Then once he has played all 9 matches he will use his modified version of Einstein’s relativity equations and he will travel back in time and use his knowledge of Barry's holdings to win all the matches. Soon this thread won't even exist, instead it will be replaced by one talking about how Daniel swept Barry and made 4.5 million.

[econ_tim 0]

I'm sure the equilibrium strategy for heads up matches is a mixed strategy regardless of the bet size. This just means that, for a given situation, the player randomly does X a certain percent of the time and does Y the rest of the time. A simple example would be rock, paper, scissors, where the Nash equilibrium is to play each move with probability 1/3. If both players are using this strategy, then neither player can increase their winrate by using a different strategy.The problem is that it is hard for people to generate truly random sequences. They usually fall into some kind of pattern, and if their opponent discovers it, they have a huge advantage.The same problem arrises when playing poker. Their are many situations where it would be correct to randomize your behavior if you opponent is also playing randomly. But if you suspect your opponent is not playing truly random, then you should try to take advantage of it. This is where everything gets really complicated, because now even if the first player was playing randomly, if he thinks that you think that he will not play randomly, then he should change his strategy.So it is hard to say what top players actually do in heads up matches.

[GregF 0]

Heads up matches are the closest thing to the many of the advanced game theoretical models of poker. Anytime you have a known bet size, you can reduce the the complexity of the linear equations substainally. Barry, a mathematican, who plays $4000-$8000 all the time, would have a firm grasp on the linear equations resulting from a $4000-$8000 bet size. .

Do you have any idea what YOU are even talking about?

Yeah, give us some examples of those "linear equations"... Is it me or the link between y=mx+b and a poker game is pretty weak...

[GregF 0]

Sorry, I stopped to that post and did not look the rest of the thread...

[RockFish 0]

barry is not a stupid man...what we all fail to realize here, or many of us at least, is that barry did not have a fortune prior to poker.  we are quick to talk about negreanu's bankroll and how great it is, but we give barry little credit about how he can not only play negreanu, but also stake mimi vs negreanu without sweating it...that being said, i don't think barry's personality is a great poker personality, but i do respect him as a poker player and a very smart one at that.

Why do you people just make things up? Barry started Symantec.

[RockFish 0]

If I were playing Barry Greenstein heads up,  I wouldn't choose the $4000-$8000 limit.Heads up matches are the closest thing to the many of the advanced game theoretical models of poker. Anytime you have a known bet size, you can reduce the the complexity of the linear equations substainally.  Barry, a mathematican, who plays $4000-$8000 all the time, would have a firm grasp on the linear equations resulting from a $4000-$8000 bet size. He may be able to reduce any edge Daniel has to virtually zero, and if he picks up any patterns from Daniel he could produce a good edge for himself...I think Daniel would have a better chance in a different ante structure, or a  no limit game, where Barry would have a harder time with calculating optimal strategies, but not $4000-$8000 limits or pot limits...just a thought.

UGH. What diffence does it make if the bet sizes are 1/2? They are just units. In fact, DN does not want to play Barry in NL games. In addition,....ah F it you obviously have no clue what youre talking about anyway.

[RockFish 0]

Heads up matches are the closest thing to the many of the advanced game theoretical models of poker. Anytime you have a known bet size, you can reduce the the complexity of the linear equations substainally.  Barry, a mathematican, who plays $4000-$8000 all the time, would have a firm grasp on the linear equations resulting from a $4000-$8000 bet size. .

Do you have any idea what YOU are even talking about?

Yeah, give us some examples of those "linear equations"... Is it me or the link between y=mx+b and a poker game is pretty weak...

What he means is that a game with like HU limit hold em can be beat mathematically. This is true. However, he definitely does not seem to fully understand what he is talking about.

[RockFish 0]

i think he brings up some good points, 4000-8000 stakes are barry's comfort level.  regardless of the excess verbage stated in his post, it was a good point that daniel should go for different stakes...3000-6000? 2000-4000? that would bring the luck factor down and also make barry less comfortable by playing limits that are not what he's used to...we often get restless if we play lower than our own level and scared if we play higher than our normal level...as an aside, i really do love negreanu's personality and think its great for poker, and he's a great poker player no doubt, but 7stud i'd imagine is an edge for barry, however slight that may be...

We'll im done here. Are you guys serious? Do you think before you write?

[RockFish 0]

First of all, Linear equations that would relate to the bet amounts in poker aren't very complex at all, and Barry, being a mathematician wouldn't have trouble coming up with one for the other limits they could play at.  I'd also like to point out that players at the level of DN who don't use equations to determine optimal strategy can normally infer what the optimal strategy is, on their own.

Are you serious? Not complex at all. Please show me the simple equation you would use to beat a HU limit hold em game. I bet you couldn't even make one for tic tac toe.

[RockFish 0]

heads-up, a purely mathematical approach loses much of its benefit in relation to a 10-handed NL or PL cash game.What are you talking about? Are you joking?

[SiliconSlim 0]

This makes little sense.It's not as if Daniel is sitting there while playing heads up thinking to himself," you know, the linear equation of +EV vs the non linear bill fillmaff approach is really boggling my mind right now. You see if I go dumpster diving with AJK but Barry counters with donkey drawing A23 I might have to pull a reverse implied odds to counter act his hidden ace flying dragon."Are you listening to yourself?It's poker, heads up. I seriously doubt Daniel is thinking about  "linear equations"

You sound like an ignorant redneck.