At what limit does play improve?

[speedz99 145]

I live in Phoenix, and play live limit hold em games at a few local casinos. I played 3-6 for a while, until I couldn't take the amount of jackasses staying in every hand. We have tourists, old people just there for socialization, and rich people playing at limits so low that they don't care what happens.I recently moved up to 4-8, and am having much more success. Unfortunately, there are still many times when I feel like inferior players are taking huge pots through poor play. One or two bad players are great and will be cleaned out fairly quickly, but when four out of nine players are playing every hand, the odds start to go in their favor that one of them will hit a hand. So here is my question...is it worth moving up to 6-12 where there are probably less poor players? In the long run I will probably win more, but three or four bad trips in a row at this limit would be extremely painful. Sorry for the long post, but thanks for any input.

[benhoug 0]

Sadly I don't know when it gets better... I occasionally play at a few casinos outside of Chicago and I've played as high as 5/10 with the same jackasses you mention. I once saw a woman stand a double-raise pre-flop w/ 9 5 off and make a full house. You'd think that bad players would make it better for the rest of us, but w/ so many of them it seems like quite the opposite is true.

[TheIceman05 0]

Your post implies a bit of a lack of knowledge (no offense meant).No... you'll win more big bets/hr IN THEL ONG RUN at the lower limit games, even if they're all playing like jackasses. If the plays you're making have a positive expected value, you'll be a long run winner. Regardless of how much it sucks to get sucked out on by a runner-runner- straight draw when you flopped top-two, it would suck MUCH more in the long run if those guys folded their shi t hands. So, I suggest staying in that juicy 4-8 game. You don't WANT to be against good players. Play good poker at those tables and you'll win a LOT in the long run. You'll have some bad beats, and some bad fluctuations, but you'll kill in the long run. The phenomenon you're referring to (when lots of players with bad draws call, thereby improving the odds of each successive player, so they have better odds on their respective draws) is called "schooling" (as in, many fish together). This is frustrating at first, because you won't win as many pots, but if you're getting 4 callers to the river and one of them calls you down with middle pair.... well, that's a lot of money you're going to win there. And it more than makes up for the money you lose when some fish catches running deuces to bust your formerly nut straight. So, in conclusion: Play right, and you'll win. You have to, or you're playing wrong. Evaluate your play, and try to look at every play in terms of the long run.ICE

[speedz99 145]

No offense taken. I think you probably know a lot more about odds than I do, so can you explain the "schooling" phenomenon to me? I was under the impression that if I have AA (for example), I would rather go heads up than be up against four other players. With AA five handed, I may have the highest percentage on the table of winning the hand, but that percentage is still well under 50% because of the amound of hands.

[Smasharoo 0]

If you move up in limmits you'll lose.You're winning because of the jackasses.If you moved up to a better game, you'd BE the jackass.Understand?

[53o 0]

I mostly play 2/4 live and find that when the fish start to sit down all you can do is tighten up and wait for the cards. You can't bluff, or try to outplay them.. Because they are not playing against you.. They are just playing the cards in their hand, hoping to hit. When you start getting the cards and hitting flops you win. When you don't, you get stuck watching tourists leaning on 2-8 off suit all the way to the river and pulling in monster pots. Just tighten up, don't let it tilt you, and you'll come out ahead.

[speedz99 145]

If you move up in limmits you'll lose.You're winning because of the jackasses.If you moved up to a better game, you'd BE the jackass.Understand?

You talk a lot of shit, but I've never actually seen you write anything useful about poker. I'm going to take a wild guess that you're 16, have never been to a casino without having to stand on the rail watching daddy play, and spend most of your time playing fake money online. Oh, and maybe you get crazy one in a while and play .05/.10 games when you get your allowance.

[prov1x 0]

speedz99,I live in Phoenix as well and likely play in the same games. I often play in Casino AZ's weekly NLH tourneys. I have won 2, and have a 6th, a 10th, a 15th, and multiple 20-25th's. With that being said, I know of the games you speak and overall they suck. The 6-12 game I played the other night was the most frustrating 25 minutes of poker I can recall. They do offer a 5-150 game there that is their version of "no limit". You can only buy in for $300, the blinds are 3-5 and the most you can put down on a hand is 150. It is a game that you are able to actually employ some poker skill and not just watch you great starting hand get drawn out. On the other hand I agree with the post that said if you create positive expectation then IN THE LONG RUN you will win. Good luck.prov1x

[NYIsles 0]

Man, I can't wait for the rest of this thread...

[Deebo 0]

I've seen 30/60 at the Bellagio look very similar to your 3/6 in AZ. There usually develops a quick list to get a seat at those games. On the other hand, I sat in a 3/6 game in this little casino in WA where blinds were chopped every orbit, heads up flops, completely uncharacteristic of a typical 3/6 ("Do you chop?"-- "what's chop??").So yes, your aces will get crushed more often, and you will have more variance when you can't make a hand, but when you start beating that game regularly, move up.

[Smasharoo 0]

You talk a lot of censored, but I've never actually seen you write anything useful about poker. I'm going to take a wild guess that you're 16, have never been to a casino without having to stand on the rail watching daddy play, and spend most of your time playing fake money online. Oh, and maybe you get crazy one in a while and play .05/.10 games when you get your allowance.Trying to help you come to an understanding that you make my money by playing bad players.Good players will make moeny from you.Poker's a zero sum game. If you were good enough to play in tough games you'd be crushing weak games and not crying about bad players cracking your good starting hands.That's all.No need to get all upset, now.See, I'm being polite and evevrything.

[Mister Hand 0]

You talk a lot of censored, but I've never actually seen you write anything useful about poker.  I'm going to take a wild guess that you're 16, have never been to a casino without having to stand on the rail watching daddy play, and spend most of your time playing fake money online.  Oh, and maybe you get crazy one in a while and play .05/.10 games when you get your allowance.

Way to take the high road. :roll: Smash can be caustic, and abrasive, and sometimes just plain rude. But I've found him to be right more often than not. I think his "jackass" reference was unnecessary, but it does puzzle me why many like yourself say they want to play in a game with better players. Is it worth losing money, or winning less money, just to be able to say "Well, at least tonight no one cold called my raise with a 3-6 and hit their gutshot on the river?" Isn't that too high price to pay to avoid being drawn out on?Your post on having AA is kind of indicative of this - imo - short term kind of thinking. Would you rather play your AA against four people or one? The answer in a cash game is almost always going to be four. Yes, your odds of winning the pot go down to perhaps less than half if all four of your opponents stay to the river, whereas you're probably a 4-1 favorite against most two-card holdings of a single opponent. But the pots that you do win can be up to four times as large if they go all the way to the river with you. Even if we account for the times they won't call with a busted draw on the river, you're still making a lot more money in the long run with more players drawing against your premium hands. No offense, but if you don't understand that, your chances of being the weakest player at a higher limit table go up.

[speedz99 145]

Point taken, on both subjects. Now I can go back to the 4-8 table and be comfortable that I shouldn't be moving to a higher limit until I can beat them game a little more consistently. Hopefully that will be enough to keep me from doing something stupid the next time a 90 year old man takes a huge pot with a 38 suited, while eating lo mein, talking to his wife, and keeping an eye on the dog races.

[Smasharoo 0]

Point taken, on both subjects. Now I can go back to the 4-8 table and be comfortable that I shouldn't be moving to a higher limit until I can beat them game a little more consistently. Hopefully that will be enough to keep me from doing something stupid the next time a 90 year old man takes a huge pot with a 38 suited, while eating lo mein, talking to his wife, and keeping an eye on the dog races.You have to try and master the most important psychological trick in poker.Being happy when you get dealt a bad beat because you played it well and it's goinng to make you money most of the time.Once you can do that, you'll understand how ludicrously easy it is to make money from LL games and think twice about wanting to play in a game where your PF raise with AA in early position wins a blind and half.

[hoof31 0]

If you move up in limmits you'll lose.You're winning because of the jackasses.If you moved up to a better game, you'd BE the jackass.Understand?

Smash,You have such a way with words.

[Smasharoo 0]

You have sucha way with words.Someone should pay me to write or something.Oh wait, they do

[scottrude 0]

I also play in those games and have had the same experiences you have. It is very frustrating. The few things that I have done to overcome the "jackasses" is as follows. 1. This one goes without saying, but I tighten up like Britney Spears used to be. 2. I make sure I have plenty of time to play, and don't rush. 3. I use my spare time at the table looking and listening for tells from these idiots (So I don't get bored). 4. I bring my headphones so they think I'm not paying attention, but I listen to everything. 5. I'll show each new batch of A-holes a idioic bluff that I raised pre-flop, then go back to tight as a drum. 6. If I still lose I'll tell them all they suck, get mad and leave. Just Kidding. Good Luck Bro, Scott

[randomization 0]

I'd like to add my two cents, because I also play low limits against bad players and don't have the results that I'd like to see. What I think is the important thing if you're in that situation is to ask yourself why your results are suffering. If you've been playing for a long time, and doing poorly, it's not the game is cheating you, or that the idiots are impossible to beat (someone who is impossible to beat is a genius, not an idiot). What you need to do is figure out what sorts of idiots you're up against, and then make adjustments to your play based on that information. Not all idiots play in the same way, and the way to deal with them can be different. They all probably play too many hands, but watch how they play them and vary your play accordingly. Against agressive idiots you'll usually end up having to tighten up and burn them when you get premium hands, in loose-passive games you may want to look for hands like suited connectors that play well in multi-handed pots. These aren't meant to be strategy recommendations that'll turn your game around, just examples of how your play might vary. In general, instead of complaining about idiots, the better thing to do is figure out what kind of game you're playing in and how you need to deal with the particular circumstances of the game. That's tough, but it'll give you more flexibility than you'd have if you assumed that you were just playing in the wrong game and could cure your problems by moving up in limits.

[hoof31 0]

What people usually fail to mention when they talk about the "idiots" if how many these peolple are re-buying chips during the game. Someone is ending up with all that money. If you are not the person ending up with their money, you probably need to adjust.

[SPACEAPE48 0]

Funny stuffBut I must say, it can be a little difficult to win a pot with people who do nothing but stay till the end. When that happens the skill goes out the window and simply becomes a game of luck. When your at a table of ten that makes nine people against you. You can almost guarantee they'll stay till the end. I guess all you can do is wait for premium hands, which takes hours to get anywhere, usually resulting with a bad beat in my case. That damned river,lol. Anyhow, best of luck to whoever started this post. I think I'll give live games a go next because online is a bitch.

[Awful 0]

The point of the game isn't winning pots, it's winning money. By pushing hands aggressively with these people, you will eventually win some monster pots. Even if you only win 1 out of 5 or 7 or whatever pots you are actually involved in due to the aforementioned "schooling" effect, you can come out ahead.If you're in a pot with 5 people calling you down all the way, you only need to win 18% of the time to be making money on those 6-way pots.One adjustment: play hands that don't need to go all the way, and develop to very strong hands (flushes, straights, sets, etc.)Small pairs (set or fold) and suited connectors=goodness in these games.

[Smasharoo 0]

But I must say, it can be a little difficult to win a pot with people who do nothing but stay till the end. When that happens the skill goes out the window and simply becomes a game of luck.Spoken like someone who's lost $10,000 to me playing $3/$6 over the years :)It's definately not all luck.

[fluxer 0]

I don't like playing with horrible players (ones that just go to the river, like most low limits) for the following reasons:1) There's a vast increase in variance.2) It's dull to play using the method which wins: Sit and wait for cards.3) Bluffing has a negative expected value.4) The amazing beats and outdraws make it a lot more difficult than normal to play the solid poker that wins in the long run.5) There's no challenge intellectually.6) A computer may as well be playing for you.I would rather be in the higher limits and winning the same amount of money or more just technically "less" for those stakes.

[SPACEAPE48 0]

Lol, no... havn't lost quite that much. I started with 45 dollars and spent it mostly on tournaments, which probably wasn't the best idea seeing has I hadn't played many to begin with.Before using real money I used the play money at pokeroom.com-I did poorly for a long while but here lately have been getting better. I went from 1g to about 12.Ever since going broke I've played two play money tournaments and won both. Anyone notice any differences in the way the games are played or the people who play them comparing cash and play money?

[TexasCoffee 0]

Wow. What a thread! I wish I had caught it earlier.Smash. Harsh, but well put.Luck?! Probability!!Tossing a coin was luck until somebody figured the odds, built a casino, and threw a green spot on the quarter.Be your own casino. Does the dealer cry at blackjack when you hit? NO! Don't cry when somebody sucks out on you; play the odds. When you are sitting at a table with the same 5 callers... play the flop and stop bluffing the turn. Bet-out with set or better and rejoice in the fact that you can watch the game and not work to make money.Be your own rake! Make sure that you have the outs to justify the call for big drawing hands... and punish draws with raises and caps when you have the best hand.I think that you are playing over your bank roll. You mentioned that 6-12 would sting your wallet and you let "calling stations" make you passive. Happy New Year All!