humbly disagree with slansky

[Jeff 0]

I must say I have been Slansky's SSHE system for a little while and have fully absorbed the notion that you want people to call you to the river because this means that you are playing with bad players and in the long you will beat them. I've been playing .50/1 for a while by the book, and continue to get beat my people who cold call 2 and 3 raises with J8 off suit to my AKs and end up drawing a straight. I just have to believe that these idiots wouldn't play like this at higher limits. I have not lost my br yet, and about even after playing for while which is frustrating. I want to build my br up to 300X/bb where I can play 5/10 but feel it will take for ever.suggestions? encouragement? will variance play itself out?

[the_stein 0]

you're screwed for life

[Chiggleslap 0]

You can't humbly disagree with Sklansky. It's not Sklansky's opinion. It's pure probabililty. If people are calling you down to the river with weaker hands, you will win in the long run.If "playing by the book" means betting your AK to the river without improving, then throw your book out. You're probably overplaying your hands.Poker involves a thought process, there's no way around it. Sklansky doesn't tell you to bet every hand you play to the river, he gives preflop recommendations.You can use his recommendations, but you definitely need to take an active approach. You can't just bet and call like a robot. Have you ever seen a bot play? A lot of them do not win in the long run. They're jokes, for the most part.Anyways, you'll be fine if you're a good player. Trust me, you want people calling you down.

[Jeff 0]

You can't humbly disagree with Sklansky.  It's not Sklansky's opinion.  It's pure probabililty.  If people are calling you down to the river with weaker hands, you will win in the long run.If "playing by the book" means betting your AK to the river without improving, then throw your book out.  You're probably overplaying your hands.Poker involves a thought process, there's no way around it.  Sklansky doesn't tell you to bet every hand you play to the river, he gives preflop recommendations.You can use his recommendations, but you definitely need to take an active approach.  You can't just bet and call like a robot.  Have you ever seen a bot play?  A lot of them do not win in the long run.  They're jokes, for the most part.Anyways, you'll be fine if you're a good player.  Trust me, you want people calling you down.

OK... thank you... it sure is a maddening process in the short run, but I do have faith

[JaysonWeber 0]

That's called a bad run... it happens.. they're making -EV decisions, that's why you play within your Bankroll all the time.It will come around... and believe me, it never gets easier than the microlimit tables.

[Sushiman 0]

I know it is frustating but the odds will even themselves out in the long run. If your roll is taking too massive of a hit from several sessions you are mostly likely playing out of your bankroll. Btw, a lot of ppl find the finer points of SSHE debateable. There are certain situations where he advises you to raise your draw that people find too aggressive. But you can't argue with the basics in that book.

[Scott31 0]

Hang in there. It was just a year and a half ago that I was at the same level and I definitely empathize with your situation. Can I humbly suggest that maybe the reason you're on such a bad swing is tilt due to these ridiculous suckouts? I know most people won't ever admit that they tilt....ever, but it's probably happening to some degree. If you're fairly new (less than a year of continuous play) then you're probably more prone to some minor tilting than you would care to acknowledge. To be honest, it's tough to avoid even for a seasoned veteran when you flop a nut straight and some moron calls several raises and makes his backdoor flush. After that, Q7s, J9o, 48s and a number of other junk hands look as inviting as Shana Hiatt naked on your bed with pocket aces between her breasts. :-) Don't be seduced by Shana, she's evil!!! :twisted:Stay with it and take shots at the higher levels when you get a decent BR. Solid play WILL pay off and you'll wonder why you ever doubted yourself in the first place. Good luck.

[Jeff 0]

Hang in there.  It was just a year and a half  ago that I was at the same level and I definitely empathize with your situation.  Can I humbly suggest that maybe the reason you're on such a bad swing is tilt due to these ridiculous suckouts?  I know most people won't ever admit that they tilt....ever, but it's probably happening to some degree.  If you're fairly new (less than a year of continuous play) then you're probably more prone to some minor tilting than you would care to acknowledge.  To be honest, it's tough to avoid even for a seasoned veteran when you flop a nut straight and some moron calls several raises and makes his backdoor flush.  After that, Q7s, J9o, 48s and a number of other junk hands look as inviting as Shana Hiatt naked on your bed with pocket aces between her breasts.   :-)  Don't be seduced by Shana, she's evil!!! :twisted:Stay with it and take shots at the higher levels when you get a decent BR.  Solid play WILL pay off and you'll wonder why you ever doubted yourself in the first place.   Good luck.

yes, you are probably right. this has been helpful, thank you.

[finztotheleft 0]

SSHE has turned me into a winning player....and trust me that took some doing. It will help to have a few winning sessions under your belt to keep your confidence up during the inevitable downswings. This is exactly why we need 300 bb to manage the swings. Hang in there and do not try to force it by playing junk or getting too fancy. Remember to use note taking features so you can keep track of the chasers and use it against them. Good Luck !

[Scott31 0]

Hang in there.  It was just a year and a half  ago that I was at the same level and I definitely empathize with your situation.  Can I humbly suggest that maybe the reason you're on such a bad swing is tilt due to these ridiculous suckouts?  I know most people won't ever admit that they tilt....ever, but it's probably happening to some degree.  If you're fairly new (less than a year of continuous play) then you're probably more prone to some minor tilting than you would care to acknowledge.  To be honest, it's tough to avoid even for a seasoned veteran when you flop a nut straight and some moron calls several raises and makes his backdoor flush.  After that, Q7s, J9o, 48s and a number of other junk hands look as inviting as Shana Hiatt naked on your bed with pocket aces between her breasts.   :-)  Don't be seduced by Shana, she's evil!!! :twisted:Stay with it and take shots at the higher levels when you get a decent BR.  Solid play WILL pay off and you'll wonder why you ever doubted yourself in the first place.   Good luck.

yes, you are probably right. this has been helpful, thank you.

No problem. For those of you into psychology, it's probably a good idea to have something to go back to when a bad beat occurs. For example, if a runner-runner boat beats your flush, think of a babbling brook or something lame like that. For me, I type in one word: GOOSFRABA. Most people at the table have no idea what the heck it means, but it helps me get centered AND it brings a smile to my face. It's from Anger Management (Sandler) and is a pretty funny relaxation technique they used in the movie. Anybody else have something similar?

[BoBetter 0]

Jeff,I hear you. Its a lot harder to run over a table with Tight aggressive play at lower limits, when people will see a flop for any price. In august I bought in for $30 online, and my bankroll is up to almost $2000. I've read about ten books. When I started I played .25/.50 and hadn't read any Slansky yet. I just played ultra tight. I didn't get position, until I moved up in limits, but I basically played the top hands, excluding K10 and Q 10 off, and QJ off, all of which I play now depending on situation and position. I played Ace suited from any position, but would only play it , if I hit two pair or four to a flush. I only played pocket pairs if I hit a set. And raised with AA, KK, QQ, and AK only. Funny to think back on it now.Hang in there, and be aware of what the rest of the table is playing and calling down with. Know that your pre flop raises won't be respected as much as in higher limits, and know that your raising to protect hands won't do much good. BUT DO RAISE FOR VALUE. And be more apt to play the suited hands, and connectors, than weak high card holdings.......for one bet obviously, in good position, when you know there will be enough players to justify the call.I played ultra tight in the low limits, and I moved up fast. Now I'm tight agressive, border line maniac, but I'm still learning.

[waldo 0]

unless there is a hole in the universe, you will win money with AK vs J8 in the long run

[harvey 0]

Sklansky's Fundemental Theorem of Poker implys that whenever your opponents draw while its a mistake to draw, you win, and when they fold you lose. This is why many people feel that in these small stakes games having poor draws against you is a blessing. But, if you read that section of Theory of Poker closely, you will catch a brief sentence where he says something like "Oh yeah, ....um not so much for multiway situations."Morton's Theorem expands upon this concept. Morton's theorem explains that while individually you have an edge against a weak draw that will earn you money if they stay in the hand. BUT, when you have SEVERAL weak draws against you (which is common in small stakes holdem), they combine (like Voltron) into one giant draw that will often beat you. It is in these cases, where even though players are folding correctly, it would benefit you if some of them folded. When you are playing try to put players on a draw and think of pot equity:If you have aces,someone else has top pair on the board, %20 to beat yousomeone has a flush draw, %35 to beat yousomeone has a gutshot, %16 to beat yousomeone has bottom pair: %20 to beat youVoltron's pot equity: 91%Your pot equity: 9% (of course this is WAY over simplified, since you will sometimes get a set, and their draws will interfer with each other and alter the percentages. But the concept is whats important) Thus the question how do you get people to fold in a small stakes game? Well, SSH doesnt really talk about Morton's theorem, but one strong theme of SSH is its advocation of aggressive turn play. Putting people in a situation where they have to call 2 or 3 cold on the turn, will (more often than 2 or three on the flop) sometimes get some weak draws to fold. So in big pots, its sometimes better to not raise the flop, and wait until the turn. There are many example hands in the book where he shows this. I have found this to be helpful in my play.

[oreogod 0]

From your post, I get two things.You dont understand the concepts of the book and you probably overplay your hands.Either way it sounds like you have a ways to go before understanding the concepts behind this game. I dont think its Sklansky that Id be disagreeing with here.Re-read the book and other books until u nail the concepts down...move away from using a hand chart ASAP, its better to understand when and why to play a hand then looking at a generic training wheel chart.U probably need to learn when to toss overcards and such. Anyway im tired, but yeah, the book is fine, understand why its not working for u, then u can improve your game further.

[Randy Reed 0]

Or if you want to rush to the higher limits you could use my plan.Start with $50, build it playing low limits ala smash being careful not to exceed the 300 BB limit. When you get to about $300 after grinding it out for endless hours, play some $20 sng's and and lose about $66, then get drunk and jump in a 2/4 game to get it back and realize that you're broke and have to start over.Definately charachter building and gives you a different outlook on your game, lol.

[Airabus 0]

I must say I have been Slansky's SSHE system for a little while and have fully absorbed the notion that you want people to call you to the river because this means that you are playing with bad players and in the long you will beat them. I've been playing .50/1 for a while by the book, and continue to get beat my people who cold call 2 and 3 raises with J8 off suit to my AKs and end up drawing a straight. I just have to believe that these idiots wouldn't play like this at higher limits. I have not lost my br yet, and about even after playing for while which is frustrating. I want to build my br up to 300X/bb where I can play 5/10 but feel it will take for ever.suggestions? encouragement? will variance play itself out?

I hate to bust your bubble, but you'll find plenty of people playing J8 to a raise at the 5/10 (my regular Party Poker game). I had Aces cracked by 23o. Learn to love these type of people they are the ones that are going to give you money. The best +EV move you can make is just type "nh" and move on. Slansky's preflop recommendations are on the money, but you still have to play post flop. I have won many pots with AK unimproved against 1 or 2 players but if they are still around after you have fired both barrels forget the river bet (there are exceptions i.e. they are drawing to a flush that doesn't hit) because they will call with any piece of the board.Hope this helps.

[Project 2501 0]

BUT, when you have SEVERAL weak draws against you (which is common in small stakes holdem), they combine (like Voltron)

rad. using Voltron refrences is +ev.

[Jeff 0]

The best +EV move you can make is just type "nh" and move on. that is the best advice I have received... and slansky's reco as well. Thanks. current slump is bad tho' close to 600 hands, 9 hours and down -$40 at my .50/1 game

[Suited_Up 2]

The best +EV move you can make is just type "nh" and move on. that is the best advice I have received... and slansky's reco as well. Thanks. current slump is bad tho' close to 600 hands' date=' 9 hours and down -$40 at my .50/1 game[/quote']That's really not too bad. Probably some small issue like playing Q10 too much or over playing AK and you could be down $40. Or even just a couple rough beats. Just focus and that should turn around.

[Airabus 0]

The best +EV move you can make is just type "nh" and move on.

that is the best advice I have received... and slansky's reco as well. Thanks. current slump is bad tho' close to 600 hands, 9 hours and down -$40 at my .50/1 game

Keep the faith. Downswings suck, but there is nothing you can do about them except try to minimize them. If you find yourself tilting step away from the computer. I know it may seem silly when you are losing but you have to focus on making correct decisions regardless of your stack size. Don't worry about results as long as you are making good decisions. If you can do that the math will do the rest.Every time you are about to enter a pot (I assume you are only playing 1 or 2 tables based on 600 hands in 9 hours) ask yourself should I call, fold or raise? This may seem a bit noobish but it sure is better than clicking a 'call' button and then saying "Why did I do that?”. Work on your discipline and post some hands (if you so chose) so we can help analyze your play.

[dapokerbum 0]

Hang in there. It was just a year and a half ago that I was at the same level and I definitely empathize with your situation. Can I humbly suggest that maybe the reason you're on such a bad swing is tilt due to these ridiculous suckouts? I know most people won't ever admit that they tilt....ever, but it's probably happening to some degree. If you're fairly new (less than a year of continuous play) then you're probably more prone to some minor tilting than you would care to acknowledge. To be honest, it's tough to avoid even for a seasoned veteran when you flop a nut straight and some moron calls several raises and makes his backdoor flush. After that, Q7s, J9o, 48s and a number of other junk hands look as inviting as Shana Hiatt naked on your bed with pocket aces between her breasts.[/ Don't be seduced by Shana, she's evil!!! Stay with it and take shots at the higher levels when you get a decent BR. Solid play WILL pay off and you'll wonder why you ever doubted yourself in the first place. Good luck.

Boy would I love to see that

[Airabus 0]

Hang in there. It was just a year and a half ago that I was at the same level and I definitely empathize with your situation. Can I humbly suggest that maybe the reason you're on such a bad swing is tilt due to these ridiculous suckouts? I know most people won't ever admit that they tilt....ever, but it's probably happening to some degree. If you're fairly new (less than a year of continuous play) then you're probably more prone to some minor tilting than you would care to acknowledge. To be honest, it's tough to avoid even for a seasoned veteran when you flop a nut straight and some moron calls several raises and makes his backdoor flush. After that, Q7s, J9o, 48s and a number of other junk hands look as inviting as Shana Hiatt naked on your bed with pocket aces between her breasts. Don't be seduced by Shana, she's evil!!! Stay with it and take shots at the higher levels when you get a decent BR. Solid play WILL pay off and you'll wonder why you ever doubted yourself in the first place. Good luck.

Boy would I love to see that

You can just go to her website. :wink:

[mrdannyg 274]

Sklansky's Fundemental Theorem of Poker implys that whenever your opponents draw while its a mistake to draw, you win, and when they fold you lose. This is why many people feel that in these small stakes games having poor draws against you is a blessing. But, if you read that section of Theory of Poker closely, you will catch a brief sentence where he says something like "Oh yeah, ....um not so much for multiway situations."Morton's Theorem expands upon this concept. Morton's theorem explains that while individually you have an edge against a weak draw that will earn you money if they stay in the hand. BUT, when you have SEVERAL weak draws against you (which is common in small stakes holdem), they combine (like Voltron) into one giant draw that will often beat you. It is in these cases, where even though players are folding correctly, it would benefit you if some of them folded. When you are playing try to put players on a draw and think of pot equity:If you have aces,someone else has top pair on the board, %20 to beat yousomeone has a flush draw, %35 to beat yousomeone has a gutshot, %16 to beat yousomeone has bottom pair: %20 to beat youVoltron's pot equity: 91%Your pot equity: 9% (of course this is WAY over simplified, since you will sometimes get a set, and their draws will interfer with each other and alter the percentages. But the concept is whats important) Thus the question how do you get people to fold in a small stakes game? Well, SSH doesnt really talk about Morton's theorem, but one strong theme of SSH is its advocation of aggressive turn play. Putting people in a situation where they have to call 2 or 3 cold on the turn, will (more often than 2 or three on the flop) sometimes get some weak draws to fold. So in big pots, its sometimes better to not raise the flop, and wait until the turn. There are many example hands in the book where he shows this. I have found this to be helpful in my play.

i've always wondered about this, and how the numbers added up, etc. in my games there are often several chasers, who's combine to have more than 50% odds, even post-flop when i have TPTK. thanks for the informative post.daniel

[guinevar 0]

I just have to believe that these idiots wouldn't play like this at higher limits.

SSHE starts with the words SMALL STAKES for a reason. You have to use different strategies to beat the 15/30 than the .5/1.Be critical of your play as well. That is how you improve.