New Challenge: Movin' On Up

[Syntonic 0]

New personal goal: play LESS tournaments.

[KingJames 11]

I will not play rush poker. I will not play tournaments.I will not play rush poker. I will not play tournaments.I will not play rush poker. I will not play tournaments.I will not play rush poker. I will not play tournaments.I will not play rush poker. I will not play tournaments.I will not play rush poker. I will not play tournaments.I do neither, but gotta help syntonic out

[babylondonks 5]

actually it's close to an absolute from the button with an opener. unless as he said his pfr is like 1. or of course unless my post flop play is atrocious. not 3-betting TT there is like lighting money on fire.

LOLIf your post-flop play is atrocious you want to be 3betting TT more often from there. We have a hand that flops decently in single raised pots in position, why 3bet an UTG raiser "absolutely".Is your 3bet for value, a bluff? What's your post flop plan

[mtdesmoines 3]

I will not play rush poker. I will not play tournaments.I will not play rush poker. I will not play tournaments.I will not play rush poker. I will not play tournaments.I will not play rush poker. I will not play tournaments.I will not play rush poker. I will not play tournaments.I will not play rush poker. I will not play tournaments.I do neither, but gotta help syntonic out

What do all you people have against RUSH?

[krup24 0]

LOLIf your post-flop play is atrocious you want to be 3betting TT more often from there. We have a hand that flops decently in single raised pots in position, why 3bet an UTG raiser "absolutely".Is your 3bet for value, a bluff? What's your post flop plan

i thought raise was from COnm i agree generally, i call way more that 3bet vs UTG raiser

[droberts 3]

another TT hand... BvBPoker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 530842The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterBTN: $7.05SB: $10.50Hero (BB): $10.45UTG: $3.65MP: $6.05CO: $8.35Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with T T 4 folds, SB raises to $0.40, Hero raises to $1.20, SB raises to $10.50 all in

[Jariso13 1]

another TT hand... BvBPoker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 530842The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History ConverterBTN: $7.05SB: $10.50Hero (BB): $10.45UTG: $3.65MP: $6.05CO: $8.35Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with T T 4 folds, SB raises to $0.40, Hero raises to $1.20, SB raises to $10.50 all in

Without any stats on the guy im folding

[Chet Chetterson 0]

I agree with the fold, if you feel like you're one of the better players at the table then there's no need to flip in a cash game for a buy-in.

[Jariso13 1]

pot control.. and i didnt want to bloat the pot with a marginal hand.

I think your hand is pretty strong and you need to raise to take control of the hand. If he flopped 2 pair or a set hes comin back over the top and u can get away. If he calls your raise and a heart comes out u can get away. Even if he has a better ace now hes the one thats worried. Plus your 10 high flush might be good if it hits. His half pot bets at this level lead me to believe he doesnt love his hand. Take advantage of that.

[trystero 0]

I agree with the fold, if you feel like you're one of the better players at the table then there's no need to flip in a cash game for a buy-in.

if villain flipped AK then we call every time as slight favorites w/$1.60 in the pot. we fold here because we have no reason to believe he's shoving pocket pairs under Ts, and he really has to do that for us to get the right price to call

[trystero 0]

Raise the flop. Take control of the hand. If you are just calling because u think u may be behind then fold. If you think your ahead raise for value. Calling just puts you in bad spots with a bigger pot.

Calling doesn't put us in any bad spots. We can tailor our action on later streets in response to villain's actions. What's bad about this spot we're in now? We're at least calling; the question is can we be called by worse if we raise top two pair? Raising the flop puts us in a bad spot. We bloat the pot up with a mediocre ace and a mediocre flush draw against someone we know very little about.

[SuperJon 175]

Villain is 25/18My analysis...Preflop: Not sure if I should be 3 betting here. I lean more towards 3 betting worse hands with some post flop value, i.e. 64s, 89o, K8s, etc. and obviously my really strong hands. I prefer to flat with hands like QJs, especially in posistion. If I were the SB or BB, I think I'm 3 betting a fair amount of the time.Flop: I decided to float here for two reasons. 1. If he checks the turn, I'm going to fire a bet on most cards, especially the scare cards. 2. Not as important as #1, but with the gutshot, if I hit I could win a big pot if does in fact have a strong hand.Turn: Just calling seemed best at the time. If I raise, we run into the standard, he's only calling with hands that beat us and folding out hands we beat. In addition I now have a hand with showdown value.River: Stumped. I can't see him firing two barrels, and then checking with a bigger overpair. Possibly with QK, and maybe AQ. The only hands I really see him calling with that I beat are 10J+ and Q9, so I thought a value bet may be a little thin.Thoughts?PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comMP ($5.12)CO ($7.98)Hero (Button) ($5.42)SB ($11.65)BB ($13.33)UTG ($3.40)Preflop: Hero is Button with J , Q 2 folds, CO bets $0.20, Hero calls $0.20, 2 foldsFlop: ($0.47) 10 , 8 , 5 (2 players)CO bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40Turn: ($1.27) Q (2 players)CO bets $1.05, Hero calls $1.05River: ($3.37) 7 (2 players)CO checks, Hero checks

[fighter 4]

fold most of the time especially at 10NL. shove sometimes. never call.

Well thats a plus but not what I was getting at.

This...but still there are no absolutes. But not 3 betting here costs you value unless your tasting and feeling like an A 10 3 flop. But play right dont feel.

i thought raise was from COnm i agree generally, i call way more that 3bet vs UTG raiser

Ok the assumption is that we are 3 betting because CO is trying to steal the blinds alot and has a wide range. If we 3 bet, he will fold his air and weaker hands, 4 bet his monsters and some bluffs, call some of the time with mid range- high pairs and broadways. When he 4 bets, assuming you are not comfortable going AIPF with TT (without some history you shouldn't be) you fold. How is that different from just taking a hand like K8o and 3 betting. We don't get to see a flop and he wins the pot. If we had called pre, we give ourselves a chance to flop a set and against his 4 bet range AK,AA,KK,QQ that is going to be extremely profitable. When he folds his weaker hands, are they the same weaker hands that would of cbet between around 55%-85% of the time (depending on flop). So instead of using the power of position we are just letting him decide when to put money in. If he calls the 3 bet , you now take a flop. An overcard will be on that flop 60% of the time. So now what, I guess cbet. Is that bet for value or a bluff. Ok the flop comes all under cards, We bet and get c/r, Are we fist pumping the money in ?Also those questions are rhetorical. You should be polerizing your 3 betting range, If you are going to 3 bet fold , you want to do it with a hand that does not play well post flop like K8s , 97s or a hand that can 5bet all in. Doing it with hands like TT or AJ is robbing yourself of the equity they have when you take a flop.

[Jariso13 1]

Calling doesn't put us in any bad spots. We can tailor our action on later streets in response to villain's actions. What's bad about this spot we're in now? We're at least calling; the question is can we be called by worse if we raise top two pair? Raising the flop puts us in a bad spot. We bloat the pot up with a mediocre ace and a mediocre flush draw against someone we know very little about.

I think raising the flop will more times than not keep the pot smaller (if thats what you want on later streets) than calling a flop turn and river bet made by your opponent.

[Jariso13 1]

Well thats a plus but not what I was getting at. Ok the assumption is that we are 3 betting because CO is trying to steal the blinds alot and has a wide range. If we 3 bet, he will fold his air and weaker hands, 4 bet his monsters and some bluffs, call some of the time with mid range- high pairs and broadways. When he 4 bets, assuming you are not comfortable going AIPF with TT (without some history you shouldn't be) you fold. How is that different from just taking a hand like K8o and 3 betting. We don't get to see a flop and he wins the pot. If we had called pre, we give ourselves a chance to flop a set and against his 4 bet range AK,AA,KK,QQ that is going to be extremely profitable. When he folds his weaker hands, are they the same weaker hands that would of cbet between around 55%-85% of the time (depending on flop). So instead of using the power of position we are just letting him decide when to put money in. If he calls the 3 bet , you now take a flop. An overcard will be on that flop 60% of the time. So now what, I guess cbet. Is that bet for value or a bluff. Ok the flop comes all under cards, We bet and get c/r, Are we fist pumping the money in ?Also those questions are rhetorical. You should be polerizing your 3 betting range, If you are going to 3 bet fold , you want to do it with a hand that does not play well post flop like K8s , 97s or a hand that can 5bet all in. Doing it with hands like TT or AJ is robbing yourself of the equity they have when you take a flop.

What about 3 betting to isolate your opponent? Because you just called you gave the blinds better odds to call and are now playing the hand 3 handed.

[Syntonic 0]

Sigh, no stats on opponent. He just sat down.Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comCO ($57.15)Button ($50)SB ($70)BB ($24.90)Hero (UTG) ($50)MP ($59.80)Preflop: Hero is UTG with J, JHero bets $1.75, 1 fold, CO calls $1.75, 2 folds, BB calls $1.25Flop: ($5.50) 4, 10, 7(3 players)BB checks, Hero bets $3.50, CO calls $3.50, 1 foldTurn: ($12.50) A(2 players)Hero bets $7, CO calls $7River: ($26.50) 8(2 players)Hero checks, CO bets $18

[KingJames 11]

Puke/foldBINK:Converted by a herd of feral cowsFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em $0.05/$0.10 - 5 playersBB: $10.00 UTG: $8.81 CO: $22.44 (Hero)Button: $14.90 SB: $9.75 Preflop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with (5 players)UTG folds, Hero raises to $0.35, Button raises to $1.10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $3, Button calls $1.90Flop: ($6.15) (2 players)Hero bets $3.50, Button raises to $11.90, and is all in, Hero calls $8.40Turn: ($29.95) (2 players)River: ($29.95) (2 players)Hero showed , and won ($27.96) with a pair of AcesButton showed , and lost with a pair of JacksHero won $27.96(Rake: $1.99)And more $2 rake

[Stupidhead 2]

I think raising the flop will more times than not keep the pot smaller (if thats what you want on later streets) than calling a flop turn and river bet made by your opponent.

We're not obligated to call a turn or river bet by calling the flop. We use whatever stats we have to determine how often he value bets better hands, worse hands, or bluffs. Raising costs us any money he would have put in with a bluff or a medium strength hand, and also costs us when we're behind. There is no value behind raising other than to "make the hand easier". That does not make up for all the value we're sacrificing.

[Danege 1]

I agree with the fold, if you feel like you're one of the better players at the table then there's no need to flip in a cash game for a buy-in.

Curious as to why you think taking small edges in cash games is bad?

[krup24 0]

Well thats a plus but not what I was getting at. Ok the assumption is that we are 3 betting because CO is trying to steal the blinds alot and has a wide range. If we 3 bet, he will fold his air and weaker hands, 4 bet his monsters and some bluffs, call some of the time with mid range- high pairs and broadways. When he 4 bets, assuming you are not comfortable going AIPF with TT (without some history you shouldn't be) you fold. How is that different from just taking a hand like K8o and 3 betting. We don't get to see a flop and he wins the pot. If we had called pre, we give ourselves a chance to flop a set and against his 4 bet range AK,AA,KK,QQ that is going to be extremely profitable. When he folds his weaker hands, are they the same weaker hands that would of cbet between around 55%-85% of the time (depending on flop). So instead of using the power of position we are just letting him decide when to put money in. If he calls the 3 bet , you now take a flop. An overcard will be on that flop 60% of the time. So now what, I guess cbet. Is that bet for value or a bluff. Ok the flop comes all under cards, We bet and get c/r, Are we fist pumping the money in ?Also those questions are rhetorical. You should be polerizing your 3 betting range, If you are going to 3 bet fold , you want to do it with a hand that does not play well post flop like K8s , 97s or a hand that can 5bet all in. Doing it with hands like TT or AJ is robbing yourself of the equity they have when you take a flop.

it's pretty close to which way is optimal strategy imo. so say we call pf. then 60% of the time an overcard hits. are we folding to the C-bet every time? are we calling one street and then what's our turn action, fold, station, raise? i think i just feel that 3-betting pf let's me put CO on a range. calling does nothing as far as that goes imo cause i know my opening range c-bet % from the CO and it's wide. my 3-bet is for value plain and simple. i 3-bet a wide range in position. maybe this is a flaw maybe not. you definitely got me thinking though.

[fighter 4]

it's pretty close to which way is optimal strategy imo. so say we call pf. then 60% of the time an overcard hits. are we folding to the C-bet every time? are we calling one street and then what's our turn action, fold, station, raise? i think i just feel that 3-betting pf let's me put CO on a range. calling does nothing as far as that goes imo cause i know my opening range c-bet % from the CO and it's wide. my 3-bet is for value plain and simple. i 3-bet a wide range in position. maybe this is a flaw maybe not. you definitely got me thinking though.

Can't we put CO on a range from the very start? What is stoping us?Alot of the time we will be just folding or calling seeing the turn and then folding. The difference is that In a 3 bet post , it is for 4x the money then in a single raised pot. So just giving up in a 3 bet pot with TT is not really an option since we have invested alot more into the pot. To give up at the same frequency in 3 bet and single raised pots means that you are giving up too easy in 3 bet pots or not easy enough in single raised pots. While I know that TT is for value, I hate the idea of raise folding it. Which is the main point I am trying to express.

[trystero 0]

worst poker players by far: French.

[Chet Chetterson 0]

@SuperJon: I'm not sure whether I would float on the flop (depends on how the table was playing for me), but otherwise I like your thought process.

[Chet Chetterson 0]

Curious as to why you think taking small edges in cash games is bad?

Probably the tournament player in me. However at these lower limits villains are less likely to understand ranges and the consequences of bets If you can outplay the villain post flop then give yourself the bigger advantage that way.

[krup24 0]

Can't we put CO on a range from the very start? What is stoping us?Alot of the time we will be just folding or calling seeing the turn and then folding. The difference is that In a 3 bet post , it is for 4x the money then in a single raised pot. So just giving up in a 3 bet pot with TT is not really an option since we have invested alot more into the pot. To give up at the same frequency in 3 bet and single raised pots means that you are giving up too easy in 3 bet pots or not easy enough in single raised pots. While I know that TT is for value, I hate the idea of raise folding it. Which is the main point I am trying to express.

we can and but it's a huge range. not ATC huge but rather large.i too feel dirty raise folding it. but when we are 4-bet we are typically dominated. the point i'm trying to express is that it's close with respect to the times we:1) call the raise pf, call down a street or raise/fold the flop, if we call down one street fold turn to another bet2) call the raise pf, call down a street or raise the flop and win the pot1) 3-bet/fold pf2) 3-bet/win pf3) 3-bet/c-bet win4) 3-bet/c-bet losewhich maximizes EV?? I don't have a clue but it's intriguing and i feel it's really really close. would def require additional analysis and actions as these are very basic and have to include the times we flop sets vs overpairs which could probably happen only if we call pf. plus the times we flop sets vs TPTK or 2 pair. sigh my head hurts.