Tough Spot Deep In A 5.5

[Init2WINitHI 0]

No real reads on opponent his stats were similar to mine although I had been pretty card dead and had been folding for a quite a while.vpip 20/pflp rais 25/af 25 over 60 handsWhat range can you give him on this and what should I do on the turn.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 5.5 Tournament, 3000/6000 Blinds 600 Ante (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comButton (t44552)SB (t115212)BB (t321847)UTG (t185475)UTG+1 (t702268)MP1 (t189863)Hero (MP2) (t124024)CO (t137929)Hero's M: 8.99Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q , K 3 folds, Hero bets t17250, 2 folds, SB calls t14250, 1 foldFlop: (t45300) 8 , 3 , 3 (2 players)SB checks, Hero bets t20000, SB calls t20000Turn: (t85300) Q (2 players)SB checks, Hero ??

[donk4life 34]

I would check back here a lot. We have the King of diamonds, but at the same time we don't want to get check/raised, because that puts us in a really shitty spot.

[HighwayStar 8]

I would check back here a lot. We have the King of diamonds, but at the same time we don't want to get check/raised, because that puts us in a really shitty spot.

yes

[GOCUBSGO 77]

vpip 20/pflp rais 25/af 25 over 60 handscan anyone elaborate more on what this tells us and what range we put him on?

[Init2WINitHI 0]

what it told me was he is not spewey - leands toward nitty. When he does come into a pot he is usually raising and will be very aggresive post flop which was why the line was so difficult for me to figure out.Any one else think differently?

[SwolyswoND 1]

I think we can safely eliminate 3x from his range, he shouldn't be flatting anything like that from the SB. This is usually a PP < 8 IMO, sometimes something like 99-TT. At the same time, I wouldn't feel great about getting c/r on the turn, so I think we check behind the turn and call his river bet, or bet if checked to.

[Mercury69 3]

Check

[Biff Goods 0]

vpip 20/pflp rais 25/af 25 over 60 handscan anyone elaborate more on what this tells us and what range we put him on?

How is this possible. I didn't think you could raise more hands than you actually play....

[XXEddie 0]

I don't think we have to worry about getting c/r do we?Villain has just under 1 PSB left, and we just barely have him covered. Isn't this just shove/check considering we are NEVER folding to a shove if we bet 30-40k?I think I would just shove here. It's possible he hit the flush, but he may have floated with Ax or a small PP or like 87s/98s. If he has AdXx or a PP with a D, it's possible he will commit here, instead of what would likely be a check/fold on the river. I guess it depends what you plan to do if you check behind and he shoves river.

[Mercury69 3]

I don't think we have to worry about getting c/r do we?Villain has just under 1 PSB left, and we just barely have him covered. Isn't this just shove/check considering we are NEVER folding to a shove if we bet 30-40k?I think I would just shove here. It's possible he hit the flush, but he may have floated with Ax or a small PP or like 87s/98s. If he has AdXx or a PP with a D, it's possible he will commit here, instead of what would likely be a check/fold on the river. I guess it depends what you plan to do if you check behind and he shoves river.

I would say you are pretty correct, but I'm inclined to be more conservative here, if only because it would be extremely likely for Villain to have AQ with the A being a diamond. But that's just how I run.

[SwolyswoND 1]

I don't think we have to worry about getting c/r do we?Villain has just under 1 PSB left, and we just barely have him covered. Isn't this just shove/check considering we are NEVER folding to a shove if we bet 30-40k?I think I would just shove here. It's possible he hit the flush, but he may have floated with Ax or a small PP or like 87s/98s. If he has AdXx or a PP with a D, it's possible he will commit here, instead of what would likely be a check/fold on the river. I guess it depends what you plan to do if you check behind and he shoves river.

It's possible he hit a flush yes, but if he did the money's going in anyway. If he doesn't have a made hand or has a PP, the better play is to extract one more bet on the river, whether that's him bluffing/turning a made hand into a bluff, or him more likely to call a weaker PP since we checked the turn through.If we check the turn behind we are always calling the river.

[rrumsey 0]

check flop, push turn

[donk4life 34]

check flop, push turn

Why on earth would you check this flop and then shove the turn?

[SwolyswoND 1]

check flop, push turn

Wat?

[rrumsey 0]

ok sorry i didnt explain this well enough bc i was lazy. you need to check the flop, we are too short IMO to cbet. If we do cbet and hit top pair, we are way to short to let this hand go, so now you need to shove the turn and pray. this short i either bet smaller pre or go ahead an just open shove (yes i know it is sketchy but the vast majority of the time we are at worst 40% or so worst case, we are only ultra crushed by 5 hands, racing or just slightly behind a lot of others. add fold equity and it is close to a +ev ) we are stuck in this akward stack size that if we open, we are more or less commited to the flop. I would either try and small ball open this and try and take down the blinds and antes, or open shove to basically do the same thing. Plus we have 2 overs a decent amount of the time for when we get called by a shove. The bet size you did and the cbet was imo the worst thing you could do, just leaves us with no good opens and we are playing it exploitable. Make the other person make the mistakes in this hand, dont make it harder for yourselfpreflop if you do what you did, i check fold flop, and probably donk drop kick bet all in on the turn. does that make more sense?*side not, long term in this point of the tourny if you show a few open shove, believe me villains start retard calling with bad hands, if you hold up, you can make a very deep run

[Init2WINitHI 0]

How is this possible. I didn't think you could raise more hands than you actually play....

Sorry - clearly transposed the 25/20 Thanks.

[Init2WINitHI 0]

Rumsey - good analysis. When I was in the middle of playing this hand my thought process was that there is no way this flop hit him - which was why I bet, the problem was it didn't hit me either - a check on the flop and then again on the turn would have been much better. There will definitely be a better spot later if we conserve some chips here.

[rrumsey 0]

Rumsey - good analysis. When I was in the middle of playing this hand my thought process was that there is no way this flop hit him - which was why I bet, the problem was it didn't hit me either - a check on the flop and then again on the turn would have been much better. There will definitely be a better spot later if we conserve some chips here.

when you are this short you dont really wanna see hardly any flops unless you are maybe giving some rope with a monster knowing they will stack off if they hit something. thats why i said we played this hand exploitably, we are asking for a deep stack to mine against us or try and move us off, and 1/3 of the time we totally miss the flop.

[donk4life 34]

So, we should play our hand face up and become very exploitable?

[XXEddie 0]

when you are this short you dont really wanna see hardly any flops unless you are maybe giving some rope with a monster knowing they will stack off if they hit something. thats why i said we played this hand exploitably, we are asking for a deep stack to mine against us or try and move us off, and 1/3 of the time we totally miss the flop.

Villain is just as short as we are. It's not like they will call us down light because they have plenty of backup chips.

[rrumsey 0]

Villain is just as short as we are. It's not like they will call us down light because they have plenty of backup chips.

which is why we can still generate fold equity, and what does he call us with? well, probably 8's + a10s+ AJo +, we are racing with 5 hands that call us, only slightly behind a few more, and only crushed by 5 hands. every other hand, villain is folding, making the number be close to working out as +ev. besides, like i said above, villains tend to at least call me down with tiny PP's in these kinda spots and this deep we are coinflipping for a deep run, not trying to nit ball out a place our two imo. If you don't hit very deep runs, or a few final tables in these things you can't show longterm profit. yes it involves some risk, but it is worth it. If we go broke in 3 orbits we probably get very close to the same payout, but if we win this double we get to move up a decent amount in the payout ladder.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Rumsey do you even realize how much your posts conflict with one another?

[rrumsey 0]

to be honest no, i have always been an advocate of open shoving a decent amount of the time with an M below 9-10 with decent hands in middle to late position. If our position was different then this hand is different. If stack size is different, then this is different. I mean I have gotten over time a little more aggro in the positions similar to this because i had the same things happen to me in this hand in a lot of the tournys I played when i first got going, but then i realized that i would bet, cbet then have to fold half of my stack way too often, so i used the aggression to try and patch that leak i was seeing. When i finally decided to go for the deep runs instead of nit folding myself into a nothing stack, i took variance for sure, but it gave me the chance of going very deep, therefore i got deeper runs.* if our hand was slighty weaker i would actually fold, this hand is the lowest limit for me to do that short of thing, but come on guys if you play tournys that are bigger then the 180 or 90 persons at all you would know that at some point you HAVE to coin flip. otherwise you will get crushed by the big stacks stealing your blinds and antes every time! swoly you play cash games more don't you?* oh and another side note guys, you are acting like we get called a very high % of the time. brother, they fold like 75% of the time. That is more than plenty of FE when we have something that does have some equity when called! EQUITY people come on!

[donk4life 34]

I think you're misunderstanding what fold equity is.