The Official Phil Kessel Thread

[Speed Limit 0]

Its a big price to pay

On another note, why the hell didn't Toronto offer him a sheet of $5.4 mil a year, then if Boston matched go to them and offer them the picks(1st/1st/2nd)?

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Is this retort fact-based?

Dale, in all seriousness, right now, who would your rather have? Like you said, Cammalleri is already in his prime. Kessel is still years away from it.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

On another note, why the hell didn't Toronto offer him a sheet of $5.4 mil a year, then if Boston matched go to them and offer them the picks(1st/1st/2nd)?

once Boston matches, they cant trade him for a year.

[digitalmonkey 929]

The Toronto Maple Leafs relationship with their fans is very similar to the relationship Lucy has with Charlie Brown. Let's give them just enough hope so they'll try to kick the ball again.

[serge 904]

I love the alternate universe that is this stupid board....A lot of people think this is a great trade, some people event think that Burke fleeced the Bruins.Dale is jealous that his team signed and acquired $7 million dollar 30 year old 20 goal scorers..

[serge 904]

On another note, why the hell didn't Toronto offer him a sheet of $5.4 mil a year, then if Boston matched go to them and offer them the picks(1st/1st/2nd)?

was never going to happen...

[Speed Limit 0]

once Boston matches, they cant trade him for a year.

Ah, that would be why, OK that's fair. I'm pretty sure Chiarelli is just grinning, he mentioned Kessel asking for a trade, and not wanting to play in Boston anymore. To get that package from Toronto is a boon, although I'm curious why the hell Kessel wanted to leave the best team in the East during the regular season. Julian was hard on him, but just so that he'd have more of an overall game, and for his own good. I'm willing to wager he doesn't put up 36+ goals this year.

[digitalmonkey 929]

Dale, in all seriousness, right now, who would your rather have? Like you said, Cammalleri is already in his prime. Kessel is still years away from it.

Obviously it depends on the rest of the team but Cammalleri is a better player than Kessel. Is anyone really arguing that? Perhaps Kessel has the potential to be a better player but Eric Lindros had the potential to be a first ballot hall of famer too. Kessel will be 26 when this contract ends and entering the prime of his career. Let's say he turns into a perennial 80 point player...how much will the Leafs have to pay him to keep him if he's already being paid about 5 and a half million? Is Kessel a player that will put the Leafs over the hump or is he just another player that will give die-hard Leafs fans enough hope to get excited about the team again?

[digitalmonkey 929]

Daniel,YOu are way off base, as you havent been following the team closely obviously.What do you think you would get with a first round pick around 10-15(even thats a stretch)...Check in years past the type of player you would get. I prefer Kessel over Stamkos and Tavares right now...I guess guys like BozakKadriStalbergTlustyKuleminHansonStefanovichGustavvsonnSchennJust to name a few...

Why do you prefer Kessel over Stamkos?

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Obviously it depends on the rest of the team but Cammalleri is a better player than Kessel. Is anyone really arguing that? Perhaps Kessel has the potential to be a better player but Eric Lindros had the potential to be a first ballot hall of famer too. Kessel will be 26 when this contract ends and entering the prime of his career. Let's say he turns into a perennial 80 point player...how much will the Leafs have to pay him to keep him if he's already being paid about 5 and a half million? Is Kessel a player that will put the Leafs over the hump or is he just another player that will give die-hard Leafs fans enough hope to get excited about the team again?

No, he wont put them over the hump. I really dont think that exists anywhere. No one puts you over the Stanley Cup hump. You need help. Even Crosby/Malkin needed each other.Right now, Id rather have a 21yr old Kessel. I dont think he is that far from Cammalleri(who i actually like a lot) and I think Kessel COULD get better. But your right, COULD is a big word. But if I agree that Kessel might never get any better, and Lindros wasnt the HOF'er people thought he'd be, doesnt that then support the argument that draft picks sometimes dont pan out either, even first rounders???I think if the Leafs play this right, they have a real opportunity to build a team to compete for a Cup in about 3/4 years. I dont mean be the best team in the NHL, I just say possibly compete for a Cup as one of the top 5. They would need A LOT of help, would need to make some shrewd signings, and would need some of this young talent to really prosper, ie Kadri, Schenn, Bozak, Stalberg, not to mention whats already on the roster. Adding Kessel to that mix makes a lot of sense, cause this is one of the hardest things to find from a draft or anywhere, a pure goal scorer who has a very high upside, and is only 21.Im not saying this is the ideal rebuild, but I do like Kessel, and I like what Burke is doing. I dont see this as the classic MLSE garbage, but I could be wrong. Then again, Im not a fan, just a guy who lives in this city and would love to see them competitive.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

No, he wont put them over the hump. I really dont think that exists anywhere. No one puts you over the Stanley Cup hump. You need help. Even Crosby/Malkin needed each other.Right now, Id rather have a 21yr old Kessel. I dont think he is that far from Cammalleri(who i actually like a lot) and I think Kessel COULD get better. But your right, COULD is a big word. But if I agree that Kessel might never get any better, and Lindros wasnt the HOF'er people thought he'd be, doesnt that then support the argument that draft picks sometimes dont pan out either, even first rounders???I think if the Leafs play this right, they have a real opportunity to build a team to compete for a Cup in about 3/4 years. I dont mean be the best team in the NHL, I just say possibly compete for a Cup as one of the top 5. They would need A LOT of help, would need to make some shrewd signings, and would need some of this young talent to really prosper, ie Kadri, Schenn, Bozak, Stalberg, not to mention whats already on the roster. Adding Kessel to that mix makes a lot of sense, cause this is one of the hardest things to find from a draft or anywhere, a pure goal scorer who has a very high upside, and is only 21.Im not saying this is the ideal rebuild, but I do like Kessel, and I like what Burke is doing. I dont see this as the classic MLSE garbage, but I could be wrong. Then again, Im not a fan, just a guy who lives in this city and would love to see them competitive.

The above pretty much is my opinion.A 21 year old 36 goal scorer in the hand is worth more than 3 future draft picks in the bush.It may not work out but I think it's a risk worth taking both for the present and the future of the Leafs.

[digitalmonkey 929]

No, he wont put them over the hump. I really dont think that exists anywhere. No one puts you over the Stanley Cup hump. You need help. Even Crosby/Malkin needed each other.Right now, Id rather have a 21yr old Kessel. I dont think he is that far from Cammalleri(who i actually like a lot) and I think Kessel COULD get better. But your right, COULD is a big word. But if I agree that Kessel might never get any better, and Lindros wasnt the HOF'er people thought he'd be, doesnt that then support the argument that draft picks sometimes dont pan out either, even first rounders???I think if the Leafs play this right, they have a real opportunity to build a team to compete for a Cup in about 3/4 years. I dont mean be the best team in the NHL, I just say possibly compete for a Cup as one of the top 5. They would need A LOT of help, would need to make some shrewd signings, and would need some of this young talent to really prosper, ie Kadri, Schenn, Bozak, Stalberg, not to mention whats already on the roster. Adding Kessel to that mix makes a lot of sense, cause this is one of the hardest things to find from a draft or anywhere, a pure goal scorer who has a very high upside, and is only 21.Im not saying this is the ideal rebuild, but I do like Kessel, and I like what Burke is doing. I dont see this as the classic MLSE garbage, but I could be wrong. Then again, Im not a fan, just a guy who lives in this city and would love to see them competitive.

If the plan is to compete in 3 to 4 years then why is the fact that Kessel is only 21 a selling point? Wouldn't you want someone that is in the prime of their career in 3-4 years? Kessel has 66 goals in 222 NHL games...I think he's farther from Cammalleri than you think.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

The above pretty much is my opinion.A 21 year old 36 goal scorer in the hand is worth more than 3 future draft picks in the bush.It may not work out but I think it's a risk worth taking both for the present and the future of the Leafs.

I'll argue the point that this trade doesn't get the Leafs closer to a cup, the opposite is true. For the next two seasons they SHOULD be missing out on two top 8 picks and a 2nd round pick. That's how EVERY good team is built today. There is not ONE successful franchise today that uses the Leafs model. They get "one guy" which will hurt them in two ways:1) They'll be better now costing them draft position2) They lose out on two high draft picks Adding Kessel is a waste of his career and it will not make the Leafs a contender. They had a good thing going drafting Schenn then Kadri. Two more solid drafts they add another forward and a d-man now you build around that core group. By the time the Leafs youth is ever ready to win, Kessel will be a free agent. It's a completely useless trade for the Leafs. All they've done is appeased the fans that want to win now. They've made it appear as though they are building a future, but all this deal did was ensure that the Leafs are even further from being an elite team. I hate the deal.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

If the plan is to compete in 3 to 4 years then why is the fact that Kessel is only 21 a selling point? Wouldn't you want someone that is in the prime of their career in 3-4 years? Kessel has 66 goals in 222 NHL games...I think he's farther from Cammalleri than you think.

to me, most players hit their prime around 25/26, or their 4th/5th full year. So yeah, he would be in his prime, and if you still need more time as a team, you still have an asset you can resign before his contract is up, and he can play another 5-8years for you, if all else goes well.Cammalleri had 74goals in his first 220 NHL games. I'd say thats close to Kessel's first 222gp, wouldnt you?I think we will disagree on this one, cause as much as I like Camm's offence, I detest his defensive game. Im curious to see how he fits in with a coach like Jacques Martin, though Im certain Kessel will have his problems with Wilson at times too.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

If the plan is to compete in 3 to 4 years then why is the fact that Kessel is only 21 a selling point? Wouldn't you want someone that is in the prime of their career in 3-4 years? Kessel has 66 goals in 222 NHL games...I think he's farther from Cammalleri than you think.

Exactly!!! Kessel is too old!!!! We need 18, 19 year old guys to build a winner. Kessel is too old!!!

[rinswun 6]

If the plan is to compete in 3 to 4 years then why is the fact that Kessel is only 21 a selling point? Wouldn't you want someone that is in the prime of their career in 3-4 years? Kessel has 66 goals in 222 NHL games...I think he's farther from Cammalleri than you think.

how many nhl goals did cammalleri have at 21? that said, lets forget the fact he is 21; this is a guy who was top 15 in goals scored in the nhl last year despite missing 12 games. he is a guy with 2 seasons of playoff experience and has already come back from a cancer scare. he is now going to be given more prime minutes, more responsibility and all the opportunity a guy could ever need to exceed the numbers he posted last year. he seems like a pretty confident guy so i dont think the pressure will get to him but it remains to be seen how he comes back from his shoulder surgery.overall i think it was a good deal for the leafs, expensive but worthwhile.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I'll argue the point that this trade doesn't get the Leafs closer to a cup, the opposite is true. For the next two seasons they SHOULD be missing out on two top 8 picks and a 2nd round pick. That's how EVERY good team is built today. There is not ONE successful franchise today that uses the Leafs model. They get "one guy" which will hurt them in two ways:1) They'll be better now costing them draft position2) They lose out on two high draft picks Adding Kessel is a waste of his career and it will not make the Leafs a contender. They had a good thing going drafting Schenn then Kadri. Two more solid drafts they add another forward and a d-man now you build around that core group. By the time the Leafs youth is ever ready to win, Kessel will be a free agent. It's a completely useless trade for the Leafs. All they've done is appeased the fans that want to win now. They've made it appear as though they are building a future, but all this deal did was ensure that the Leafs are even further from being an elite team. I hate the deal.

whats worse, this trade, or signing Komisarek+Beauchmin? you must have despised those signings. I think those 2 signings gave them another 5 wins easy.While I see your point, I think its actually not that easy to be the team that gets a top 5 pick. You can suck all you want, but there's no guarantees your gonna get the next Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin or even Eric Staal. There are a few teams that were terrible for a long time, and not all of them have turned out well. Just cause your Atlanta for 7 years, doesnt mean your gonna win a Cup.I dont think this team was gonna be drafting in bottom 5 anytime soon. That said, I think it would be VERY hard to find someone as talented as Kessel in the next 2 drafts at around the #10-20spots where this team would have finished, even without Kessel. I think it would be cool for us to see the drafts when they come up, and have you guys pick players at the Leafs pick and see how they turn out. Or even earlier in the draft.

[Jason12 0]

If the plan is to compete in 3 to 4 years then why is the fact that Kessel is only 21 a selling point? Wouldn't you want someone that is in the prime of their career in 3-4 years? Kessel has 66 goals in 222 NHL games...I think he's farther from Cammalleri than you think.

I think your giving Cammalleri a little too much credit. In the 4 years hes been an NHL regular hes put up 82/47/80/55, so I guess you could say Montreal is paying him after a career year aswell. When Cammalleri was Kessels age he scored 20 goals...in the AHL. Your using the 66 goals in 222 NHL games to make his numbers seem less impressive but the fact that hes played 222 NHL games and hes still only 21 says enough about his skill level.

[rinswun 6]

I'll argue the point that this trade doesn't get the Leafs closer to a cup, the opposite is true. For the next two seasons they SHOULD be missing out on two top 8 picks and a 2nd round pick. That's how EVERY good team is built today. There is not ONE successful franchise today that uses the Leafs model. They get "one guy" which will hurt them in two ways:1) They'll be better now costing them draft position2) They lose out on two high draft picks Adding Kessel is a waste of his career and it will not make the Leafs a contender. They had a good thing going drafting Schenn then Kadri. Two more solid drafts they add another forward and a d-man now you build around that core group. By the time the Leafs youth is ever ready to win, Kessel will be a free agent. It's a completely useless trade for the Leafs. All they've done is appeased the fans that want to win now. They've made it appear as though they are building a future, but all this deal did was ensure that the Leafs are even further from being an elite team. I hate the deal.

burke is doing what he did with anahiem, signing the college stars (kunitz, penner) and plugging them into a roster with the odd big name free agent (niedermayer, pronger) a big goalie (giguere) and a couple of drafted prospects (getzlaf, perry). It worked pretty well there and he has argued that the guys he added this summer from college (Bozak and Hanson) would now be considered asvaluable as late 1st rounders, the same with the development of Stalberg. Given Tlusty's ridiculous 2nd half in the AHL where he averaged almost 2 ppg and Kulemin's stint in Russia, i don't think the Leafs prospect cupboard is as bare and you're suggesting.

[SBriand 4]

how many nhl goals did cammalleri have at 21?

looks like 9

[digitalmonkey 929]

to me, most players hit their prime around 25/26, or their 4th/5th full year. So yeah, he would be in his prime, and if you still need more time as a team, you still have an asset you can resign before his contract is up, and he can play another 5-8years for you, if all else goes well.Cammalleri had 74goals in his first 220 NHL games. I'd say thats close to Kessel's first 222gp, wouldnt you?I think we will disagree on this one, cause as much as I like Camm's offence, I detest his defensive game. Im curious to see how he fits in with a coach like Jacques Martin, though Im certain Kessel will have his problems with Wilson at times too.

But we're not comparing Cammalleri of a few years ago...we're comparing the present Cammalleri with the present Kessel. You guys argue that draft picks may never amount to anything but Kessel may never amount to the equivalent of Cammalleri.

[digitalmonkey 929]

how many nhl goals did cammalleri have at 21? that said, lets forget the fact he is 21; this is a guy who was top 15 in goals scored in the nhl last year despite missing 12 games. he is a guy with 2 seasons of playoff experience and has already come back from a cancer scare. he is now going to be given more prime minutes, more responsibility and all the opportunity a guy could ever need to exceed the numbers he posted last year. he seems like a pretty confident guy so i dont think the pressure will get to him but it remains to be seen how he comes back from his shoulder surgery.overall i think it was a good deal for the leafs, expensive but worthwhile.

I never said whether or not I thought it was a good trade for the Leafs. I simply responded to Serge's request to name one player on the Habs that was better than Kessell. Right now, Cammalleri is the better player.

[Zach6668 513]

I think I like the trade now. With progress of Bozak, Tlusty, Kulemin, Schenn, Kadri, Stalberg (who might be the fastest skater I've ever seen), the Leafs are in good shape. Not every single person on the team will be <25 when they are ready to compete, you need some veteran presence in there as well. Kessel won't be that, but guys like Komisarek and Beauchemin will be. Look at the Penguins. They wouldn't win a Cup without Gonchar. They wouldn't win the Cup without Guerin or Kunitz, etc.Their CORE is young and talented, but plug in guys around them and you're fine.Obviously the Leafs don't have anyone to compare to a Malkin or a Crosby, but the Penguins don't have anyone to compare to Phil Kessel on the wing. It's just a slightly different approach.The cupboard was VERY bare for the Leafs just 2 or 3 seasons ago, now it's starting to come around.They're still a little light offensively, but they really aren't that far away.Kulemin, 22Grabovski, 25Kessel, 21Stalberg, 23Bozak, 23Kadri, 18Tlusty, 21Mitchell, 24You've got 6 or 7 top 6 potential forwards out of that group. Someone might bust, maybe not. Maybe they peak at 3rd line, that's fine, you need to fill that too. The 4th line you fill out with grinders. Craig Adams comes to mind, guys like that at league minimum. Energy type guys. 3rd line you got a bit more defensive oriented, maybe someone who's a big hitter and forechecker like a Matt Cooke, or a speedy little forechecker like Tyler Kennedy, etc.The Leafs are really shaping up well. If you have a hole from that core, you can plug it from the outside, someone like Bill Guerin, or Ruslan Fedotenko from free agency, etc. You don't need to have a homegrown product at every single roster spot.On defense, they're in great shape as well:Kaberle, 31Komisarek, 27Beachemin, 29Schenn, 19White, 25Exelby, 27Finger, 29Not as young as their forwards, but certainly not over the hill, and certainly young enough that you can still develop defensemen through the draft before you need to replace these guys.I would also argue, at this point, that trading Kaberle might be a big mistake, unless the return is incredible. I'd try to get him locked up for the rest of his career, similar to how the Pens have Gonchar, and will hopefully get him re-signed this season until he retires. Kaberle could be one of the elite game breakers in the league on defense, like a Gonchar is.The Leafs are in pretty good shape, imho.

[digitalmonkey 929]

I have a question that sort of ties into the Kessel situation...What would the general consensus be right now if Atlanta extended Bryan Little for 5 more years at $5.4 million a season?

[DanielNegreanu 141]

I think I like the trade now. With progress of Bozak, Tlusty, Kulemin, Schenn, Kadri, Stalberg (who might be the fastest skater I've ever seen), the Leafs are in good shape. Not every single person on the team will be Oh vomit, vomit, vomit, all over what you've said! Leafs are in good shape for what exactly? Potentially making the playoffs again? Surely you can't seriously believe that this group of young "talent" is capable of being a strong enough core to be an elite team? As for Kaberle, keep him why??? He is a major asset and he's 31. He won't be with the Leafs if they ever get good. You could get some young value for him. Also you said they could develop some young defensemen through the draft... too late! You just traded away 3 high picks in the next two years. The Leafs are in "good shape" if by that you mean they can once again raise to the level of #7 seed in the east again. If you are talking about winning the division, or even the cup, they are further than Phoenix and every other team in the league. This group isn't nearly strong enough to compete with the elite young teams like Chicago, Pittsburgh, and Washington.