Zach6668 513 Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 This group isn't nearly strong enough to compete with the elite young teams like Chicago, Pittsburgh, and Washington.Certainly can't disagree with that, but it's not like the other 26 teams are in line with that either. These teams did get extremely fortunate through the draft, there's no guarantee of that happening for anyone. Are the Lightning going to be Cup contenders because they got Stamkos and Hedman? Maybe, but no guarantees. Are the Islanders going to win the Cup because they got Tavares? Link to post Share on other sites
strategy 4 Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 . Link to post Share on other sites
Jason12 0 Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Oh vomit, vomit, vomit, all over what you've said! Leafs are in good shape for what exactly? Potentially making the playoffs again? Surely you can't seriously believe that this group of young "talent" is capable of being a strong enough core to be an elite team? As for Kaberle, keep him why??? He is a major asset and he's 31. He won't be with the Leafs if they ever get good. You could get some young value for him. Also you said they could develop some young defensemen through the draft... too late! You just traded away 3 high picks in the next two years. The Leafs are in "good shape" if by that you mean they can once again raise to the level of #7 seed in the east again. If you are talking about winning the division, or even the cup, they are further than Phoenix and every other team in the league. This group isn't nearly strong enough to compete with the elite young teams like Chicago, Pittsburgh, and Washington.Chicago (Toews, Kane), Pittsburgh (Crosby/Malkin/Staal), Washington (Ovechkin/Backstrom/Semin) got alot of luck in drafting their top players who mostly turned out to be superstars. The Bruins are contending for the cup and their scoring leaders look like,Savard (free agent)Krejci (2nd rd pick)Kessel (1st rd pick)Ryder (free agent)Chara (free agent)Wideman (trade for brad boyes)Wheeler (free agent)Kobasew (trade)Lucic (2nd rd pick)Bergeron (2nd rd pick)As you can see only 4 of their top scorers were aquired through the draft. The crap for a few years strategy isnt the only way to turn a team around. Link to post Share on other sites
rinswun 6 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 pitts and wash got lucky in that when they sucked there was generational talent in the draft. look at the top 3 players in scoring from last year - all from the 2004 and 2005 draft, the 2003 draft was also ridiculously strong but not every draft is even going to be remotely close to those three. atlanta, columbus and the coyotes are good examples of teams who have sucked it up for ages gaining lottery picks and still gotten no way near to a cup. look at some of thecolumbus top 10 picks from the recent drafts - klesla, leclaire, picard, brule. having that top 10 pick doesnt instantly make it a star. Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 pitts and wash got lucky in that when they sucked there was generational talent in the draft. look at the top 3 players in scoring from last year - all from the 2004 and 2005 draft, the 2003 draft was also ridiculously strong but not every draft is even going to be remotely close to those three. atlanta, columbus and the coyotes are good examples of teams who have sucked it up for ages gaining lottery picks and still gotten no way near to a cup. look at some of thecolumbus top 10 picks from the recent drafts - klesla, leclaire, picard, brule. having that top 10 pick doesnt instantly make it a star.Agreed, having a top 10 pick does not guarantee you of drafting a star. One 30 goal season doesn't make you a star either. Link to post Share on other sites
Belanger25 3 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Cammalleri's a douche. That is all. Link to post Share on other sites
gruven 530 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Like I said, Kessel's health is enough concern for me to raise a red flag. But on a more reasonable note.... It's funny that leaf fans have no regard for the value of a draft pick. That's because they have drafted absolutely horrifically for the past 30 years. I think that's why leaf fans dont mind giving up two first round picks. But I think if you ask Pittsburgh fans, or Chicago fans, or, heaven forbid, Detroit fans what they think two first round picks are worth, you would get a vastly different answer... Link to post Share on other sites
Ottawa_Biatch 288 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 I'm just trying to figure out how this benefits the Magically Delicious Link to post Share on other sites
SBriand 4 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 As a Wings fan, who cares about 1st rounders. It's all about 3rd, 6th, 7th, and 9th rounders here in Detroit. I think Kronwall is the only 1st rounder (29th or 30th I would think) in our core group of guys that were drafted by Detroit. Detroit helps out the argument against 1st rounders to build a winning team imo.Edit: For fun:Hank -7thPavs - 6thNick - 3rdFranzen - 3rdFilppula - 3rdKronwall- 1st (29th pick)Osgood - 3rdPossible core players:Helm - 5thEricsson - 9thMeech - 7th1st rounders they have that have not made the big team:KindlMcCollum1st rounders that they didn't draft"DraperEavesClearyBertStuart Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafs 142 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 The next junior draft is still 9 months away. There's plenty of time for Burke to re-acquire a 1st round pick.Give him time people. He is God, and he will make it happen. Link to post Share on other sites
MapleLeafpoker 1,462 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 But we're not comparing Cammalleri of a few years ago...we're comparing the present Cammalleri with the present Kessel. You guys argue that draft picks may never amount to anything but Kessel may never amount to the equivalent of Cammalleri.maybe I misundestood the argument. Its hard for me to figure out if you were talking to me or Serge. I thought I asked you who you would rather have on your team.You quoted Kessel's goal scoring to show he ONLY had 66 goals in his career. I mentioned in same number of NHL games, so did Cammalleri. I thought that was a fair comparison. I dont see Messier as better than Malkin, just cause Messier has more goals.If you ask me who I would rather have on my team, it would be Kessel, because he is young and has a better upside.If your asking who is the better player right at this instant for a game to be played this week, I would say Cammalleri, by a hair. But this is about as good as Cammalleri gets in my opinion. Kessel has upside. No guarantee on the upside, and I do worry about the injury issues, but still, the upside is there. Also, again, Cammalleri sucks balls on D.And you said exactly what I said. If your gonna say Kessel might not reach his upside, then I guess we can agree neither will any draft pick.The picks ARE worth a lot. But so is Kessel. This trade could be argued forever. Its a risk, its one you take. I respect Burke for doing what he feels is right. At least he's making a play. Link to post Share on other sites
DanielNegreanu 141 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 The next junior draft is still 9 months away. There's plenty of time for Burke to re-acquire a 1st round pick.Give him time people. He is God, and he will make it happen. Ya, maybe he'll do a deal where he gets Detroit's 1st rd pick and Chris Chelios in return for... Phil Kessel, lol. Kidding obviously, but the best asset the Leafs have to trade that would better their team for the future is Thomas Kaberle and the sooner he's traded the better for the Leafs. They didn't cash in on Sundin, it would a sin to not cash in on Kaberle. A sin I tell you! Everything must go! Link to post Share on other sites
digitalmonkey 929 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 maybe I misundestood the argument. Its hard for me to figure out if you were talking to me or Serge. I thought I asked you who you would rather have on your team.You quoted Kessel's goal scoring to show he ONLY had 66 goals in his career. I mentioned in same number of NHL games, so did Cammalleri. I thought that was a fair comparison. I dont see Messier as better than Malkin, just cause Messier has more goals.If you ask me who I would rather have on my team, it would be Kessel, because he is young and has a better upside.If your asking who is the better player right at this instant for a game to be played this week, I would say Cammalleri, by a hair. But this is about as good as Cammalleri gets in my opinion. Kessel has upside. No guarantee on the upside, and I do worry about the injury issues, but still, the upside is there. Also, again, Cammalleri sucks balls on D.And you said exactly what I said. If your gonna say Kessel might not reach his upside, then I guess we can agree neither will any draft pick.The picks ARE worth a lot. But so is Kessel. This trade could be argued forever. Its a risk, its one you take. I respect Burke for doing what he feels is right. At least he's making a play.Asking which of two players depends on many other things. Who would you rather have on your team...Jarome Iginla or Steven Stamkos? I was speaking about the present situation and which of the two is a better player. I believe Cammalleri is better than Kessel right now. Link to post Share on other sites
DanielNegreanu 141 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 The picks ARE worth a lot. But so is Kessel. This trade could be argued forever. Its a risk, its one you take. I respect Burke for doing what he feels is right. At least he's making a play. If it was Detroit, Anahiem, or Washington giving up the three picks I'd say "good move" as they can contend with the Kessel pick and have no shortage on talent on the farm. This is the LEAFS!!! All Kessel will do is force MORE mistakes. I can see it now: Leafs get close to a playoff spot at the deadline and its announced:Leafs acquire rent-a-player Ilya Kovalchuk in return for Luke Schenn and a second round draft pick. Leafs miss playoffs, Kovalchuk walks, Leafs lose Schenn and another pick....nice job. Link to post Share on other sites
SBriand 4 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 I was speaking about the present situation and which of the two is a better player. I believe Cammalleri is better than Kessel right now.duh Link to post Share on other sites
Jason12 0 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 Ya, maybe he'll do a deal where he gets Detroit's 1st rd pick and Chris Chelios in return for... Phil Kessel, lol. Kidding obviously, but the best asset the Leafs have to trade that would better their team for the future is Thomas Kaberle and the sooner he's traded the better for the Leafs. They didn't cash in on Sundin, it would a sin to not cash in on Kaberle. A sin I tell you! Everything must go!Couldnt agree more, obviously you cant replace a guy like Kaberle but I doubt hed want to resign anyway after being treated like crap for the past 2 years. Obviously getting a top forward to play with Kessel would be ideal, however, I understand they dont grow on trees. Moving Kaberle for some draft picks/prospects would not only help balance this trade but free some cap space which could be used for whatever. Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 As a Wings fan, who cares about 1st rounders. It's all about 3rd, 6th, 7th, and 9th rounders here in Detroit.They don't even have a 9th round anymore... more proof the NHL is conspiring to screw the Wings!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
SBriand 4 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 They don't even have a 9th round anymore... more proof the NHL is conspiring to screw the Wings!!!!!lolEXACTLY! Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted September 20, 2009 Author Share Posted September 20, 2009 I would like someone to tell me what kind of player you guys think is available with the first round picks that Burke traded away...Just go back and look the last 10 years, and see what percentage of players that were drafted went onto be 40 goal scorers in the NHL..Is Kessel a perennial 40 goal scorer? Of course not yet, but he is a lot less risk than an 18 year old taken 15th overall...This wont be a lottery pick, I am assuming you all agree..On a side note, another fun win by the Leafs at home tonight.... Link to post Share on other sites
DanielNegreanu 141 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 I would like someone to tell me what kind of player you guys think is available with the first round picks that Burke traded away...Just go back and look the last 10 years, and see what percentage of players that were drafted went onto be 40 goal scorers in the NHL..Is Kessel a perennial 40 goal scorer? Of course not yet, but he is a lot less risk than an 18 year old taken 15th overall...This wont be a lottery pick, I am assuming you all agree..On a side note, another fun win by the Leafs at home tonight.... Exactly and that is the major problem. They made deals to be competitive NOW. Jeff Finger? Really? Mike Komisarek? Really? What do the Leafs need those guys for? They aren't going to help the Leafs win the cup, they ARE going to help keep the Leafs in the worst state a team can be: not good enough to make the playoffs/not bad enough for a lottery pick. You can keep your team in that state for years and years, but that's not what I want to root for. It's way too boring. The Islanders? They aren't wasting any roster spots or draft picks looking to be competitive now. That puts them ahead on the talent curve. They will suck again this year and if they are smart they won't try to get better this year by mortgaging their future. Then next year they get a d-man and build around Okposo, Tavares, and a young stud d-man. They'll still suck the year after that too, but once again, they can pick up another high pick. Now all of a sudden they have a high end nucleus. They can then start thinking about acquiring veteran talent, and not before. It's not rocket science. The plan works if you can stick to it. Problem MOST teams have is that excessive losing means people won't go to games. That's NOT a worry for the Leafs and they should take full advantage, but there is too much pressure from stupid fans I guess. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted September 20, 2009 Author Share Posted September 20, 2009 Exactly and that is the major problem. They made deals to be competitive NOW. Jeff Finger? Really? Mike Komisarek? Really? What do the Leafs need those guys for? They aren't going to help the Leafs win the cup, they ARE going to help keep the Leafs in the worst state a team can be: not good enough to make the playoffs/not bad enough for a lottery pick. You can keep your team in that state for years and years, but that's not what I want to root for. It's way too boring. The Islanders? They aren't wasting any roster spots or draft picks looking to be competitive now. That puts them ahead on the talent curve. They will suck again this year and if they are smart they won't try to get better this year by mortgaging their future. Then next year they get a d-man and build around Okposo, Tavares, and a young stud d-man. They'll still suck the year after that too, but once again, they can pick up another high pick.Now all of a sudden they have a high end nucleus. They can then start thinking about acquiring veteran talent, and not before. It's not rocket science. The plan works if you can stick to it. Problem MOST teams have is that excessive losing means people won't go to games. That's NOT a worry for the Leafs and they should take full advantage, but there is too much pressure from stupid fans I guess.your theory doesnt work anymore...The Pittsburgh and Ottawa tanking is a thing of the past..Check out LA and Atlanta...I think you understand that Phil Kessel, is not like the previous acquisitions of Nolan,Roberts,Leetch,Francis....Kessel is not old in any sense of the word...Just so you know the Leafs currently have the best defence in the division, if not the conference...I dont think that is up for debate..If you want fun, you should of seen the Leafs game tonight..While it was an exbition, it was an exciting game..I give you 5 months, you will be back on the bandwagon..Ill even get you a Kessel jersey... Link to post Share on other sites
bdc30 0 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 The Islanders? They aren't wasting any roster spots or draft picks looking to be competitive now. That puts them ahead on the talent curve. They will suck again this year and if they are smart they won't try to get better this year by mortgaging their future. Then next year they get a d-man and build around Okposo, Tavares, and a young stud d-man. They'll still suck the year after that too, but once again, they can pick up another high pick.Now all of a sudden they have a high end nucleus. They can then start thinking about acquiring veteran talent,I hear Phil Kessel will be available somewhere around that time...He should be a good pickup for them Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted September 20, 2009 Author Share Posted September 20, 2009 All of Phil Kessel's 42 goals in 2008-2009Not too many garbage goals..The kid has all the tools to be a 50 goal scorer..Check it out.. Link to post Share on other sites
serge 904 Posted September 20, 2009 Author Share Posted September 20, 2009 I think the Leafs will end up a playoff team this year( you can argue that fact but thats not the point).I project the Leafs draft pick to be somewhere from 13-18....2005 Draft13. Marek Zagrapan14. Sasha Pokulok15. Ryan Omara16. Alex Bourret17. Martin Hanzal18. Ryan Parent2004 Draft13. Drew Stafford14. Devan Dubnyk15. Alex Radulov16. Petteri Nokalainen17. Marek Shwarz18. Kyle Chipchura2003 Draft13. Dustin Brown14. Brent Seabrook15. Robert Nilsson16. Steve Bernier17. Zach Parise18. Eric FehrThere is 18 players on that list...Only one of them Zach Parise has had a better scoring season to date than Phil Kessel. A lot of NHL players on that list, but a very few impact players..For every Zach Parise there are 3 Devan Dubnyk and Sasha Pokulok.Chances of a significant goal scorer coming out of that spot is very low....You have a huge chance to draft a player that will either be mediocre or wont even contribute...This is why its a great trade... Link to post Share on other sites
Zach6668 513 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 2003 Draft13. Dustin Brown14. Brent Seabrook15. Robert Nilsson16. Steve Bernier17. Zach Parise18. Eric FehrHoly crap, nice draft.I could argue Brown is better than Kessel. Parise is miles ahead of him as well, as you mentioned. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now