CobaltBlue 662 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Bodog 3/6 NLHE (6-handed)UTG $573MP $1250Cobalt $1151Cobalt is SB w/ . UTG has been at the table very briefly. I've played with him before, but I don't recall anything of note. I've been playing with MP for a while, but he hasn't shown me anything remarkable. Only have one kind of donky line that he's played (where he check/called the flop and then donkbet/folded to my semi-bluff).Pre-flop:UTG raises to $21, MP re-raises to $38, 2 folds, Cobalt calls, 1 fold, UTG callsFlop ($120): (3 players)Cobalt checks, UTG checks, MP bet $75, Cobalt calls, UTG callsTurn ($345): (3 players)Cobalt checks, UTG checks, MP checksRiver ($345): (3 players)Cobalt bets $185We like? Link to post Share on other sites
DonkSlayer 1 Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 I like postflop. Link to post Share on other sites
NonZeroPossibility 0 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 What do you do if someone shoves on you? Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I think you can C/C a bigger river bet or lead a big river bet. I'd prob bet like $85 or so more. I don't really love trapping with KK against 2 guys. Link to post Share on other sites
SwolyswoND 1 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Isn't this just FPS?I'm not sure I see how this extracts more value than playing it faster - personally I'd make it $80 PF. This might chase out UTG, maybe, but I'd much prefer to be HU with KK, especially OOP, then playing it multiway.Again, I think I'd pop the flop. If you raise flop to about 200-225 or so, theoretically a good player holding AQ should fold, but they never do it. Yes this line will sink you much faster if you're up against QQ or AA, but there's only 9 total combos of those out there and still 12 combos of AQ alone, so you'll get much more value this way.As played, turn and river look fine to me. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I really dislike preflop. Based on the small size of MP's 3bet, I'd imagine that you'd consider squeezing a large range here since his bet seems weak and any raise from you would presumably get respect coming from OOP (meaning a bluff 4bet here would be profitable here a large % of the time).Also, the fact that you are 200BB deep as is MP, means that you're going to face a lot of tough decisions post flop OOP against a widely undefined range of hands with a lot of $$ behind to play. Lastly, the size of the raise means that UTG is NEVER folding his hand, so by calling, you KNOW you're taking a 3 way flop where you're OOP to everyone, unless UTG reraises, which would provide the only merit that I can see to flatting this hand preflop in this spot. Link to post Share on other sites
Syous 0 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 i really hate pf because of stack sizes as well. Bloat that pot and get his money Link to post Share on other sites
Dictius 0 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 what are you doing pf? Set mining? Playing a multiway pot, out of position against a deep stack with KK seems bad. By 4 betting to like $125 won't this make the pot size / stack size relationship the same as if we 3 bet 100BB's deep? Link to post Share on other sites
krup24 0 Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 i guess cobalt is not hero in this hand. but then again all players played this oddly.i with above as far as not flatting the small reraise pf if that is you. Link to post Share on other sites
Biff Goods 0 Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I think you can C/C a bigger river bet or lead a big river bet. I'd prob bet like $85 or so more. I don't really love trapping with KK against 2 guys. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 What's with all the flat calling and checking with KK? Link to post Share on other sites
SwolyswoND 1 Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 I think krup nailed it - there's no way Cobalt is the Hero in this hand, methinks. Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 Guys...the spot is terrible. I understand why you don't want to flat pre, but getting action when we 4-bet is going to suck really really hard....especially with stacks this deep. I felt MP's range to do this against UTG is QQ+,AQs+ (I hadn't ever noticed him 3-bet pre...especially in such a strong scenario). We're 200BB deep against that range, and you want to bloat the pot where the only hands that should call or reraise us are ahead or tying? Yes, playing KK softly here puts us OOP against two opponents in a medium pot.I am not trapping. I'm trying to avoid a gigantic 400BB pot with one pair. If we get it all-in against UTG pre, that's fine. Does it disguise my hand? Yeah, but that's just a side effect. My hand doesn't have to hit a set and can have decent overpair strength. If I don't like the action and texture post-flop, I can let it go.Maybe it's stupid to say, but this felt like a really odd pot control pre-flop hand. (I'm stomped or stomping.)Basically, when it came down to it, MP's hand screamed AA to me...but I can't fold pre. Link to post Share on other sites
SwolyswoND 1 Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Guys...the spot is terrible. I understand why you don't want to flat pre, but getting action when we 4-bet is going to suck really really hard....especially with stacks this deep. I felt MP's range to do this against UTG is QQ+,AQs+ (I hadn't ever noticed him 3-bet pre...especially in such a strong scenario). We're 200BB deep against that range, and you want to bloat the pot where the only hands that should call or reraise us are ahead or tying? Yes, playing KK softly here puts us OOP against two opponents in a medium pot.I am not trapping. I'm trying to avoid a gigantic 400BB pot with one pair. If we get it all-in against UTG pre, that's fine. Does it disguise my hand? Yeah, but that's just a side effect. My hand doesn't have to hit a set and can have decent overpair strength. If I don't like the action and texture post-flop, I can let it go.Maybe it's stupid to say, but this felt like a really odd pot control pre-flop hand. (I'm stomped or stomping.)Basically, when it came down to it, MP's hand screamed AA to me...but I can't fold pre.Something isn't clicking for me here. I don't see how MP's hand can seem THAT polarized. I think your range might be spot on, but do you really think if we 4bet that QQ, AQ, AK are going to fold? AQ maybe, but as long as the 4bet is a reasonable size, I doubt it, since he's in position. You seem to be reluctant to get it all in (or at least effectively so) with the 2nd nuts PF, but then you say to never fold it pre. The reasoning behind it is even if it looks and feels like AA, that it isn't always that way, and even if it is, that we have 20% outs? I feel like you're contradicting yourself here. "Getting it in 200 bbs deep with a one-pair hand" - preflop that is meaningless, a pair is the best you can have PF. Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Marchant,It seems like you had a lot more information than you presented in the OP here with regards to MP and what you felt his range was. You give him so much credit for having a monster here yet you really make no reference to that feeling in the OP, so it's hard for us to go on any of the same assumptions that you have. Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 It seems like you had a lot more information than you presented in the OP here with regards to MP and what you felt his range was. You give him so much credit for having a monster here yet you really make no reference to that feeling in the OP, so it's hard for us to go on any of the same assumptions that you have.Yeah, I apologize for not including further info. Given that polarized range, what do y'all think? Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 Something isn't clicking for me here. I don't see how MP's hand can seem THAT polarized. I think your range might be spot on, but do you really think if we 4bet that QQ, AQ, AK are going to fold? AQ maybe, but as long as the 4bet is a reasonable size, I doubt it, since he's in position. You seem to be reluctant to get it all in (or at least effectively so) with the 2nd nuts PF, but then you say to never fold it pre. The reasoning behind it is even if it looks and feels like AA, that it isn't always that way, and even if it is, that we have 20% outs? I feel like you're contradicting yourself here. "Getting it in 200 bbs deep with a one-pair hand" - preflop that is meaningless, a pair is the best you can have PF.I do think that QQ, AQ, and AK can and often will fold...unless the QQ wants to set mine. When I say we don't fold it pre, I think this is the best way to play it to preserve that. If MP 5-bets us, we puke. If he flats us, we mostly puke...especially to further action post. It'd be an extremely rare case where I'd be happy getting 200bb in pre without AA.Position here is really pretty key. If the raise and 3-bet came from later position, we have a decently easy 4-bet. As is, this situation is not good.I think I should've presented this hand in parts due to post-flop possibly coloring pre-flop. Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 What do you do if someone shoves on you?Didn't mean to ignore this. I might crying call against UTG (though folding's still reasonable). It's an easy fold to MP's river shove. Link to post Share on other sites
Dictius 0 Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 4 betting preflop for a little more than a minraise is a pretty fishy move imo and since you've played with the guy before you probably would have noticed pretty quickly if he was fishy. I'm not sure how the software works on Bodog, but on Stars to raise 4BB preflop I just click the slider bar twice and that increases the bet from a minraise to 4x. Sometimes if I didn't notice a raise in front of me I just click twice on the slider and raise, so I end up min 3-betting+ 2BB, which is exactly what happened here. Could happen... Link to post Share on other sites
SwolyswoND 1 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Results? Link to post Share on other sites
Snamuh 0 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 FWIW Matt, I'm like never squeezing here ever. Min3bets from donks are usually huge hands that they don't like to fold (from most donks, there are exceptions of course - some donks will min3b things like AJo, KQo, 55, etc but I don't think that is the case here). Link to post Share on other sites
Snamuh 0 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 I do think that QQ, AQ, and AK can and often will fold...unless the QQ wants to set mine. When I say we don't fold it pre, I think this is the best way to play it to preserve that. If MP 5-bets us, we puke. If he flats us, we mostly puke...especially to further action post. It'd be an extremely rare case where I'd be happy getting 200bb in pre without AA.Position here is really pretty key. If the raise and 3-bet came from later position, we have a decently easy 4-bet. As is, this situation is not good.I think I should've presented this hand in parts due to post-flop possibly coloring pre-flop.I don't think a donk is ever going to fold QQ/AK to your 4bet, because well....he's a donk and donks hate folding. I also wouldn't look too much into the MP vs UTG argument if he's a bad player. They generally aren't very positionally aware, especially if they're minreraising. If you haven't seen him reraise before, THAT might be justification that it's a strong hand. I think TT/JJ can probably be in his range as well. Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Results?UTG called, MP called. UTG showed AQ. MP showed AA. (I was quite upbeat despite losing.) Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Solid reads, coolerish flop. Link to post Share on other sites
Jordan 1 Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 i think this is really bad pre. you're not super deep, and i mean, you have KK ...this is a dream spot to get more money into the pot pre and then bomb the flop.as played pre, it kinda forces you to take somewhat of a passive line post, but yea i think this is pretty bad Link to post Share on other sites
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