Hall Of Fame

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Seriously, Marlins front office people, you generally do a great job of putting low cost-high reward teams on the field. You don't need to pretend Andre Dawson was a Marlins great.

lol Your south florida sports anger really tickles me, now that I'm both familiar with the teams ( from the DLS) and completely ambivalent to their success and failure.

[uncooper 1]

"I hope that most people focus on the deserving candidates who didn’t get in, like Bert Blyleven, Roberto Alomar (both of whom will almost certainly get elected next year), Tim Raines, Edgar Martinez and Barry Larkin, among others.There are a lot of reasons that the BBWAA might have overlooked these guys, but I think the answer is pretty simple: BBWAA voters don’t appear to change the number of candidates that they vote for, regardless of the number of qualified candidates." [HarvardSportsAnalysis]

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Roberto Alomar not getting in is a pure joke. Edgar Martinez also.. ****ing idiot baseball writers. The DH has been a legitimate position, for over 40 years... if you''re the best player ever at your position, you should be in the hall. Plus, there are so many 1 dimensional players in the hall, who were only good hitters ( and a couple only good fielders), and were detriments in the field.... So if Edgar Martinez has been a defensive liability at first base for 20 years, then he's a hall of famer? What sense does that make?

[JoeyJoJo 18]

if you''re the best player ever at your position, you should be in the hall.

That's my "Ray Guy should be in the hall of fame" argument.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

Roberto Alomar not getting in is a pure joke.

Watching Alomar every day when he was at his peak on the great Blue Jay teams of that time was so much fun. He had about the highest baseball IQ out there and would do whatever was needed at any given time. His anticipation on defense was amazing.

[rivergirl 2]

i still have trouble understanding how none of the 84 tigers are in the hall yet....i know the only reason morris hasn't been brought in yet is because he was such an ass to the press. I think the sportswriters are just making him sweat a little and they'll wait till he's in his last couple of years of eligibility to make it.FWIW, i really really think they should just give pete rose a place in the hall...then again, i think i'm ok with the steroid crew also getting a nod when their times come. Sure the records may seem skewed because of the hitters juicing, but so were the pitchers so it kind of evens itself out. I believe there were alot more players doing it than not tbh , and you'll never find out about all of them. So just let them all in.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

That's my "Ray Guy should be in the hall of fame" argument.

Should also be in the hall. I don't like the way the NFL inducts people into the hall, but putting a cap on the people every year. They should jsut put in how ever many they think belongs. Guy will have a hard time getting in, when they have a cap, because there are tons of backlogged players.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

The Hall of Fame should be the top 5% (+-? I'm not sure how the numbers actually work out) of all eligible players. If you reach your cap and a new player becomes eligible that you think deserves to be in, then you need to find somebody to take out.Obviously this would never happen, but it sure would be fun.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

McGwire admits steroid use.Shocking, I know.He said he was on them off and on for nearly a decade, including his 70 HR year.I wonder if this has anything to do with his lackluster hall of fame voting. I also wonder if voters will be more lenient to those that admit it.

[king_tanner 84]

McGwire admits steroid use.Shocking, I know.He said he was on them off and on for nearly a decade, including his 70 HR year.I wonder if this has anything to do with his lackluster hall of fame voting. I also wonder if voters will be more lenient to those that admit it.

I think it has to do with the job he just got with the Cardinals, and nothing else. I'm guessing someone in the organization made him admit it if he wanted the job.If I was a voter I still wouldn't ever vote for him.Also, I think he is an even bigger scumbag after today.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

...If I was a voter I still wouldn't ever vote for him...

What rule did he break? Were Steroids and HGH against the rules back then? I honestly don't know. Everyone calls him a "cheater" but were his actions actually cheating?

[JoeyJoJo 18]

What rule did he break? Were Steroids and HGH against the rules back then? I honestly don't know. Everyone calls him a "cheater" but were his actions actually cheating?

"The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited ... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs."That's the old rule. So unless they were getting and using their steroids legally, it was against the rules.I think what a lot of people are upset about is that MLB knew this was going on and did nothing to discourage it because they never tested for it.

[3A 0]

"The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited ... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs."That's the old rule. So unless they were getting and using their steroids legally, it was against the rules.I think what a lot of people are upset about is that MLB knew this was going on and did nothing to discourage it because they never tested for it.

Well let's use current HOF inductions as a gold standard. Were there any players who used illegal drugs in the HOF? Well 1919-1933 was the prohibition, at which point alchohol was illegal. In 1919 a young man by the name of Babe Ruth was sold to the New York Yankees. Babe Ruth very publically at times was disobeying this current illegal drug law.I by no means want to say McGwire is anywhere close to Ruth on talent level or leaving his mark on the record books, however by letter of the rules "This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs."

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I think what a lot of people are upset about is that MLB knew this was going on and did nothing to discourage it because they never tested for it.

That's the crux of my issue. MLB baseball help saved by McGuire's homers, the steroid era brought millions of fans back to the game. The league when from extremely damaged by the strike and missed world series, to record attendance, almost 100 percent because of performance enhancing drugs, and now people are treating these guys like heroes and giving Selig et all a pass. If you don't let McGuire into the hall of fame, you better strip frank robinson of his HOF status, and ban selig for life too.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

Well let's use current HOF inductions as a gold standard. Were there any players who used illegal drugs in the HOF? Well 1919-1933 was the prohibition, at which point alchohol was illegal. In 1919 a young man by the name of Babe Ruth was sold to the New York Yankees. Babe Ruth very publically at times was disobeying this current illegal drug law.I by no means want to say McGwire is anywhere close to Ruth on talent level or leaving his mark on the record books, however by letter of the rules "This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs."

I was merely responding to the common misconception that steroids weren't against the rules.

[Mills 0]

The fact that MM can say that the roids did'nt give him an edge is so incrediblly insulting. it made me wonder why he even did this interview in the first place? If he wasn't ready to come clean then why bother? I'm sorry, but you will have a tough time convincing me that he actually believes this. He slugged 750 in 98... that does not happen.If he's going to continue to lie, i'm going to continue calling him an a-hole

[3A 0]

The fact that MM can say that the roids did'nt give him an edge is so incrediblly insulting. it made me wonder why he even did this interview in the first place? If he wasn't ready to come clean then why bother? I'm sorry, but you will have a tough time convincing me that he actually believes this. He slugged 750 in 98... that does not happen.If he's going to continue to lie, i'm going to continue calling him an a-hole

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hislug2.shtml750+ can happen, do I believe roids helped Big Mac? Yes. How much? Who knows for sure 25 points? which would be roughly 1 extra HR every 42 ABs. That would quantify his 70 HR's in 509 AB's down to 58HRs. (509/42 = 12.12)Lets expand on that since Big Mac addmittedly said throughout the 90's Total HRs = 405HR's 90's Total AB's = 4002 (1 per 9.88 AB's)Prior to the 90's 1986-1989 Total HR's 117 Total AB's = 1650 (1 per 14.10 AB's)Last 2 seasons no official acceptance or denial of steriods Total HR's 61 Total AB's 535 (1 HR per 8.77 AB's)Career Totals 6187 AB's 583 HR's (1HR per 10.61 AB's)Lets say we prorate his HR totals to the beginning of his career numbers at 1HR per 14.1 ABs, He does make it to 438 HR's or tied with Andre Dawson for what would be 35th overall.(This post is merely showing that it is possibly to reach .750 SLG and also an alternative to a possible prorated change to his stats, which is still phenomenal.)

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

The steroids didn't help him hit home runs.. they just kept him healthy so he could hit more of 'em. Oh, okay.

[king_tanner 84]

What rule did he break? Were Steroids and HGH against the rules back then? I honestly don't know. Everyone calls him a "cheater" but were his actions actually cheating?

Regardless if the MLB allowed it, last time I checked steroids were against the law unless used for medical reasons.I agree that MLB is corrupt and are responsible for this, but I can't let McGuire off the hook. When I first started watching baseball I was a huge fan of McGuire and Canseco (Oak fan obv), and now I have a deep hatred for them. Giambi and Tejada also.There is scientific evidence that I won't look up and find links to, but I know it is out there that shows that steroids do without a doubt help players hit home runs. McGuire is either stupid not to believe that steroids helped him hit home runs, or he thinks the public is stupid enough to believe him.I think it sucks that a team hired him.The steroid problem is not close to being over. I still think players take stuff that are undetectable. I also think athletes in other sports are still doing this as well. Last year Manny got caught, also the whole ARod stuff with him saying he did not take steroids and he got caught in a lie. All of major league baseball is shady in my opinion, I can't trust anyone with all these players lying out of their teeth.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Regardless if the MLB allowed it, last time I checked steroids were against the law unless used for medical reasons.I agree that MLB is corrupt and are responsible for this, but I can't let McGuire off the hook. When I first started watching baseball I was a huge fan of McGuire and Canseco (Oak fan obv), and now I have a deep hatred for them. Giambi and Tejada also.There is scientific evidence that I won't look up and find links to, but I know it is out there that shows that steroids do without a doubt help players hit home runs. McGuire is either stupid not to believe that steroids helped him hit home runs, or he thinks the public is stupid enough to believe him.I think it sucks that a team hired him.The steroid problem is not close to being over. I still think players take stuff that are undetectable. I also think athletes in other sports are still doing this as well. Last year Manny got caught, also the whole ARod stuff with him saying he did not take steroids and he got caught in a lie. All of major league baseball is shady in my opinion, I can't trust anyone with all these players lying out of their teeth.

Being a bit of a Devil's Advocate here......why are steroids such an issue to you? Why is this such a betrayal to you? Ultimately they are only hurting themselves. Yeah, "Bad message to kids.. blah... blah... blah..." but you "hate" them for their performance enhancing drug usage? They are going to extreme measures to be the best athlete they can be - to the point of knowingly exposing themselves to proven risks of life shortening diseases. It seems like people are getting twisted up partly because the media are making a frenzy out of it. The same media who ignored the story when it was actually happening.Interesting article which I will quote a portion:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writ....html?eref=sihpThere's another thing, something you don't hear people talk about much. In fact, my old friend Buck O'Neil was about the only person I ever heard talk openly about this. Buck would get infuriated because people constantly talked about the "benefits" of using steroids to the exclusion of almost everything else. He'd say something like: "Well, people talk all the time about how they will help you hit the ball farther and pitch the ball faster. Why don't they talk instead about how you might die young? Why don't they talk about how you might not be able to have children? Why are they always telling children: 'Use this and it will make you a great baseball player... but you shouldn't use it?'"His point was, yes, that we in the media -- especially some of the angriest anti-steroid crusaders -- GLORIFY steroids. We talk about the amazing feats of strength possible with steroids. We talk about how steroids can turn a mere mortal into a legend. We talk about how despite all the rewards -- and those rewards may include fame and riches beyond your wildest dreams -- you shouldn't do it because, you know, it's wrong and cheating and all that. This isn't exactly an overpowering message to the youth of America, is it? McGwire's message was: "Hey, it's a dead end and it doesn't even help you that much." And people skewer him for it?

Yeah, his admission is a bit short on sincerity given the timing and since he still claims that Steroids didn't enhance his performance. Then why take them?!? But people have been skewering him since his non-testimony to Congress. Now they nail him when he actually finally admits to Steroid and HGH use. The Congress inquiry was a joke, and things are way more complicated than to think you put a guy in front of Congress with a microphone in his face and expect him to embarrass and incriminate himself. I don't know.

[king_tanner 84]

Being a bit of a Devil's Advocate here......why are steroids such an issue to you? Why is this such a betrayal to you? Ultimately they are only hurting themselves. Yeah, "Bad message to kids.. blah... blah... blah..." but you "hate" them for their performance enhancing drug usage? They are going to extreme measures to be the best athlete they can be - to the point of knowingly exposing themselves to proven risks of life shortening diseases. It seems like people are getting twisted up partly because the media are making a frenzy out of it. The same media who ignored the story when it was actually happening.

First off they were able to make millions upon millions that they do not have to give back because they cheated. 2nd off they are lying. McGwire is lying (Canseco said he would go up against a lie detector at any time). Pretty much all the high profile guys have lied. They are supposed to be role models to kids and they lie in front of the public on a daily basis.2nd off, you don't feel betrayed by the McGwire Sosa year that put baseball back on the map? Yeah that whole thing was a farce. I consider that year a fantasy tale, could be written as a book, but to me all of that should be erased from MLB history.Barry Bonds' records... all a lie.Yeah I feel betrayed. I'm a baseball fan, MLB and these guys turned the sport into a joke.People have a right to "skewer" McGwire after his admission. You know why? Because he is still lying. He admitted to taking steroids, great. He is still saying that steroids did not help him hit the ball harder. He is still saying calling Canseco a liar (just like everyone else in the Congress hearing who have since been caught). The guy is still full of shit. I have no sympathy for him. The guy shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a baseball team until he can stop bullshitting everyone.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

First off they were able to make millions upon millions that they do not have to give back because they cheated. 2nd off they are lying. McGwire is lying (Canseco said he would go up against a lie detector at any time). Pretty much all the high profile guys have lied. They are supposed to be role models to kids and they lie in front of the public on a daily basis.2nd off, you don't feel betrayed by the McGwire Sosa year that put baseball back on the map? Yeah that whole thing was a farce. I consider that year a fantasy tale, could be written as a book, but to me all of that should be erased from MLB history.Barry Bonds' records... all a lie.

In the interest of consistency, do you also believe anyone who used amphetamines back in the 60s and 70s should be taken out of the record books and be out of the HOF as well?

[king_tanner 84]

In the interest of consistency, do you also believe anyone who used amphetamines back in the 60s and 70s should be taken out of the record books and be out of the HOF as well?

If there is concrete evidence of anyone using performance enhancing drugs they should be left out.Also, did Tony LaRussa really say that he had no idea McGwire was on steroids, or am I just batshit crazy?

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

If there is concrete evidence of anyone using performance enhancing drugs they should be left out.

You realize who that means you're kicking out, right? Mickey Mantle, willie mays, all the guys of that era were popping greenies like m&m's.

[king_tanner 84]

You realize who that means you're kicking out, right? Mickey Mantle, willie mays, all the guys of that era were popping greenies like m&m's.

That doesn't make any of this ok. I think the sports media is smart enough not to let any of the steroid guys in (although they might vote Bonds in which suck). I'm definitely not worried about McGwire getting in.Even if we were to consider McGwire for the hall because of how he was as a player. He wasn't a good fielder. His batting average wasn't good. All he did was hit home runs which was impacted by steroids. No way he should be in the hall, he wasn't that good.