Hall Of Fame

[JoeyJoJo 18]

That doesn't make any of this ok. I think the sports media is smart enough not to let any of the steroid guys in (although they might vote Bonds in which suck). I'm definitely not worried about McGwire getting in.Even if we were to consider McGwire for the hall because of how he was as a player. He wasn't a good fielder. His batting average wasn't good. All he did was hit home runs which was impacted by steroids. No way he should be in the hall, he wasn't that good.

If you want to make the argument that McGwire shouldn't be in the hall because of steroids, that's fine (relatively speaking). But to say he wasn't a good player is just absurd.He has a career OBP of 400. He has a career SLG of 600. He was a ridiculously awesome offensive force. And his defense wasn't bad either.

[king_tanner 84]

If you want to make the argument that McGwire shouldn't be in the hall because of steroids, that's fine (relatively speaking). But to say he wasn't a good player is just absurd.He has a career OBP of 400. He has a career SLG of 600. He was a ridiculously awesome offensive force. And his defense wasn't bad either.

Ok... what do you mean by relative speaking lol.He really wasn't a great fielder. I may have went a little far saying he wasn't good, but the OBP and SLG stat is greatly influenced by steroids. Who knows he could have had similar numbers if he wasn't on steroids, but we will never know because he WAS on steroids.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

That doesn't make any of this ok. I think the sports media is smart enough not to let any of the steroid guys in (although they might vote Bonds in which suck). I'm definitely not worried about McGwire getting in.

jesus man, grow up. don't you know anything about human nature at all?

[king_tanner 84]

jesus man, grow up. don't you know anything about human nature at all?

LOL... I know you gotta lie, cheat, and steal to make the big bucks.

[Mills 0]

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hislug2.shtml750+ can happen, do I believe roids helped Big Mac? Yes. How much? Who knows for sure 25 points? which would be roughly 1 extra HR every 42 ABs. That would quantify his 70 HR's in 509 AB's down to 58HRs. (509/42 = 12.12)Lets expand on that since Big Mac addmittedly said throughout the 90's Total HRs = 405HR's 90's Total AB's = 4002 (1 per 9.88 AB's)Prior to the 90's 1986-1989 Total HR's 117 Total AB's = 1650 (1 per 14.10 AB's)Last 2 seasons no official acceptance or denial of steriods Total HR's 61 Total AB's 535 (1 HR per 8.77 AB's)Career Totals 6187 AB's 583 HR's (1HR per 10.61 AB's)Lets say we prorate his HR totals to the beginning of his career numbers at 1HR per 14.1 ABs, He does make it to 438 HR's or tied with Andre Dawson for what would be 35th overall.(This post is merely showing that it is possibly to reach .750 SLG and also an alternative to a possible prorated change to his stats, which is still phenomenal.)

Yea, it's possible... but it dosen't really happen. There are 4 guys besides MM who have done it in history, one of which was a juicehead... so yes... it can happen... but the players who get there are either the best of the best or on the junk (bonds may have been both).....The question is, does he get there without steriod use, and I think the answer is absolutely not.I also think his prodigous power hitting makes his high OBP misleading... he was pitched around a lot... Between 98 and 99 he had 50 IBB. So it may be fair to say without the roids... his obp would not be that high either

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

LOL... I know you gotta lie, cheat, and steal to make the big bucks.

First of all, McGuire didn't steal from anyone. Second of all, if you want to DQ him from the hall of fame, for lying, then you have to disqualify basically every person in major league baseball, because players and managers lie virtually every time they are asked a tough question, giving you bland, vanillia, untruthful answers. So what were are talking about here is cheating, don't confuse the issue. So.. No, you don't "Gotta" cheat, but the temptation to do so in that position is immense, particularly when MLB was turning a blatant blind eye to it. And acting like they personally betrayed you in doing something that was in their own and their family's best interest, and hurt you ( in real terms) not one bit, is childish.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

Hey tanner, How do you feel about Cap Anson being in the hall of fame? Statistically speaking, he was worthy. But he was also instrumental in keeping black players out of the major leagues. He even refused to take the field in exhibition games if the other team had a black player.

[Mills 0]

Hey tanner, How do you feel about Cap Anson being in the hall of fame? Statistically speaking, he was worthy. But he was also instrumental in keeping black players out of the major leagues. He even refused to take the field in exhibition games if the other team had a black player.

Did his racism make him hit the ball any further?

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Did his racism make him hit the ball any further?

It made him hit the ball more often, because he got to hit against scrub white pitchers instead of elite black ones.

[Mills 0]

It made him hit the ball more often, because he got to hit against scrub white pitchers instead of elite black ones.

By that logic, no one who played before 1947 should be eligable for the hall of fame.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

By that logic, no one who played before 1947 should be eligable for the hall of fame.

I think you're backwards on the logic.MLB created the environment, so they shouldn't punish guys for adapting to it.White players shouldn't be kept out of the hall of fame because they played in an all-white league just like juicers shouldn't be kept out since they played in the steroid era.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

By that logic, no one who played before 1947 should be eligable for the hall of fame.

No, I never said that. I never said a thing about if he should or shouldn't be in the hall of fame, just that he was playing against inferior competition that racistly excluded a huge part of the potential talent pool. Which is an inarguable fact. Players suitability to the hall of fame is a subjective thing, and one of the things that has to be taken into consideration is the era. How much of a better player was a person than the other players of his era... not of other eras, because you can't compare players from the 90's to players of the 60's to players of the 30's, because the game is so different, in so many different ways. And that's why I think McGuire should be in the Hall of fame.. not because of how he compares to players like Babe Ruth or Mickey Mantle.. but how he compares to players of his era... and was the best home run hitter of his era. By far. And he also had a monstrously good OBP. That should be recognized by the hall. It should also be noted, right on his plaque or blurb at the hall talking about his career, that he was a central figure in the steroid era. His story, the good and bad, are part of baseball history, and his accomplishments were historic, and he and they shouldn't be ignored, whitewashed or blackballed.

[Mills 0]

I think you're backwards on the logic.MLB created the environment, so they shouldn't punish guys for adapting to it.White players shouldn't be kept out of the hall of fame because they played in an all-white league just like juicers shouldn't be kept out since they played in the steroid era.

At one time, It was a MLB rule that black players were not allowed... how is this similar to the steroid era? Was there ever a rule that ll players had to take steriods?

[Mills 0]

I think you're backwards on the logic.

How? The statement was made that the guy had an advantage because he he didnt have to face elite black players. Neither did anyone before 1947

[Mills 0]

No, I never said that. I never said a thing about if he should or shouldn't be in the hall of fame, just that he was playing against inferior competition that racistly excluded a huge part of the potential talent pool. Which is an inarguable fact. Players suitability to the hall of fame is a subjective thing, and one of the things that has to be taken into consideration is the era. How much of a better player was a person than the other players of his era...

But we can't just assume all the players were taking steriods... dont know that for sure. He was the best hr hitter of his era, and he used steriods to become so. I mentioned earlier as well. that that OBP is a little deceptive... it is partially a product of his HR hitting ability, which was enhanced by steriod use.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

But we can't just assume all the players were taking steriods... dont know that for sure. He was the best hr hitter of his era, and he used steriods to become so. I mentioned earlier as well. that that OBP is a little deceptive... it is partially a product of his HR hitting ability, which was enhanced by steriod use.

which is exactly why he should be in the hall. That he used steroids to become so should also be noted, in his hall of fame display. It doesn't matter what could have been, what he might have been with out steroids, or what other players could have been with them. What matters is he was the best power hitter of his era. Period. What ifs don't matter. What is and what was does matter, and what was... was that McGuire was the best home run hitter of his generation. Recording history is ultimately is the purpose of a hall of fame. To record who is the best, of each era, and to provide a narrative about baseball history. You might not like it, but the steroid era is part of baseball's history, and expelling steroid users from that era ( particularly when MLB turned a blatant blind eye to it, and enormously benefited from it financially) is willfully ignoring history.

[El Guapo 8]

You guys are getting into a circular arguement here.Tanner, McGwire won a Gold Glove in 1990, he was a great fielder in his early years, above average in his middle year, and adequate later on when his body was breaking down.

[JoeyJoJo 18]

At one time, It was a MLB rule that black players were not allowed... how is this similar to the steroid era? Was there ever a rule that ll players had to take steriods?

Actually, it wasn't a rule that black players were not allowed; it was just something the owners did. Partially due to players like Cap Anson who refused to play with or against black players. So a bunch of players won't play with black players so the owners go along with it because the fans aren't going to come to the games if the stars aren't playing and that will cost them money.In the steroid era, a bunch of players take steroids which makes them better players which brings in more fans which means more money for the owners, so MLB turns the other way to steroids.

How? The statement was made that the guy had an unfair advantage because he he didnt have to face elite black players. Neither did anyone before 1947

I meant your conclusion was backwards. I'm not arguing to exclude everyone, I'm arguing to include everyone.(Not literally everyone.)

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I meant your conclusion was backwards. I'm not arguing to exclude everyone, I'm arguing to include everyone.(Not literally everyone.)

Yes exactly. I don't understand why people are so eager to punish and exclude people, and ignore the historic importance of what they did.

[Mills 0]

Yes exactly. I don't understand why people are so eager to punish and exclude people, and ignore the historic importance of what they did.

but we are talking about two different things here.Baseball was a white man's game.. this diluted the talent pool, but it didn't artifically enchance the players ability to play the game. It also didn't give some men on the field a bigger edge than others.

[CaneBrain 95]

Hey tanner, How do you feel about Cap Anson being in the hall of fame? Statistically speaking, he was worthy. But he was also instrumental in keeping black players out of the major leagues. He even refused to take the field in exhibition games if the other team had a black player.

As long as Gaylord Perry, a true (and admitted) cheat whose actions directly affected the game (unlike steroids which have a more indirect effect), is allowed to be in the HOF then the argument for keeping out steroid guys is garbage.A baseball Hall of Fame without Barry Bonds is a joke. Tanner, you have to be kidding.

[Mills 0]

As long as Gaylord Perry, a true (and admitted) cheat whose actions directly affected the game (unlike steroids which have a more indirect effect), is allowed to be in the HOF then the argument for keeping out steroid guys is garbage.A baseball Hall of Fame without Barry Bonds is a joke. Tanner, you have to be kidding.

This is a much better argument IMO.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

As long as Gaylord Perry, a true (and admitted) cheat whose actions directly affected the game (unlike steroids which have a more indirect effect), is allowed to be in the HOF then the argument for keeping out steroid guys is garbage.

Agreed, I was going to bring up Perry next after someone provided a rational and meaningful distinction between the amphetamine use in the 60s and 70s and steroids in the 90s (a distinction which I don't think exists anyway).

[king_tanner 84]

First of all, McGuire didn't steal from anyone. Second of all, if you want to DQ him from the hall of fame, for lying, then you have to disqualify basically every person in major league baseball, because players and managers lie virtually every time they are asked a tough question, giving you bland, vanillia, untruthful answers. So what were are talking about here is cheating, don't confuse the issue. So.. No, you don't "Gotta" cheat, but the temptation to do so in that position is immense, particularly when MLB was turning a blatant blind eye to it. And acting like they personally betrayed you in doing something that was in their own and their family's best interest, and hurt you ( in real terms) not one bit, is childish.

I know he didn't steal anything. I was joking with the quote I made since I thought you were joking with your quote.I'm not DQ'ing anyone. If I had a vote it would be my personal opinion to not vote for him. I think steroids contributed too much to his game. He is known as a home run hitter, and I don't think he would have hit as many home runs, or lasted as long as he did without them. In other words I don't think he would have had a hall of fame career without steroids.It is not scientific fact that he wouldn't have been good, but we can not know if he would have been great or not since his amazing performances were all on steroids.I understand that MLB contributed a lot to it, hell I would have probably done it if I knew I could be a multi-millionaire. But after he is caught, why try and keep hiding it? Why keep lying? Barry Bonds is a different story because he did enough to be a hall of famer before he was known for being a home run hitter. I wouldn't vote for him for because of the steroids though, just my opinion. And no I'm not kidding Canebrain. I think I've made my point or tried to, so I'm going to stop posting in this thread because I know you guys will ruin me with your counter-arguments and I'm obviously in the minority with my opinion.

[akoff 0]

Bonds as much as i hate him is in...he was stud long before he got into steriods. The fact that he was one of the bigest assholes to play the game doesn't merit keeping him out.McGuire i don't believe gets there. He said he had taken steriods off and on for some time. he said he had good years and bad years with and without them...to me this indicates use for a much longer period of time and in my opinion leaves him out.