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DanielNegreanu

Turn Check-raise For Info

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This was actually from the 20 man winner take all event at Stars, plays more like a cash game so I put it here. Discuss my line of thinking here.Background: had my opponent pegged as a slightly careful player, not a huge bluffer. PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (10 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero (t5660)UTG (t5290)UTG+1 (t5460)UTG+2 (t3705)MP1 (t6430)MP2 (t850)MP3 (t5060)CO (t7095)Button (t8645)SB (t1805)Preflop: Hero is BB with Jdiamond.gif, 8diamond.gif. 5 folds, MP3 raises to t300, 3 folds, Hero calls t200.Flop: (t680) Kheart.gif, Kspade.gif, Jheart.gif (2 players)Hero checks, MP3 checks.Turn: (t680) 5spade.gif (2 players)Hero checks, MP3 bets t350, Hero raises to t900, MP3 calls t550.River: (t2480) 6diamond.gif (2 players)Hero checks, MP3 checks.Final Pot: t2480

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I think this is probably too many levels over my head, but i'm kind of confused as to where the 'info' comes from in this raise.If he has a king, he can flat call and bet the river (which you probably fold to right?) or he can re-raise which you fold to.How does his reaction to your raise give you any information to act on the river with? You're not going to value bet if he calls, and if he bets the river after flat calling the turn you're still going to be a bit unsure of you're hand.I'm suprised you didn't call here and get to a showdown cheaply, i though that was more your kind of style.

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I think I prefer to lead the turn for ~400 here once the flop checks through. There might not be quite as much reliable info from that action, but I worry that a CR bloats the pot too much and leaves us slightly awkward on the river. I guess the CR might get him to dump a few hands that beat us? The check twice CR just doesn't often get much credit in my book...cause it doesn't make much sense to me. Once he's called the turn, are we planning to check-call the river once the draws miss? Do we think villain would value-bet something like AJ?

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I think you played this ok. It's hard to gather a good deal of information with the check raise. The flat call could mean a few things: I have a king, QQ, J with a better kicker or flush draw.It's hard to play this hand out of position, but I think the flop check reveals his hand a bit more. I think if you peg this guy as a careful player who doesn't bluff too much, he would have bet this flop with a K. He's betting about half the pot on the turn after you've checked twice - to me, this reveals some weakness (potentially a monster, but let's be optimistic.)I think this guy either has a scared pair of Qs, AJ, or possibly AQ of hearts, but I don't think he would wait that long to bet. The only thing you can beat on the river is a busted flush draw, and I think if you lead the river with a good sized bet, you'll be able to get him off the winner if he is the careful player you say he is.

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We don't think he will value bet any hand like AJ at all on the river. Only hands he might bet on river are King or better, flushes or straights if he hits... and missed draws, but not likely to bet a missed draw.

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I don't really know your line of thinking at all. I think if I chose to play the hand how you did (by checking the turn), I would check/call the turn and then check/call the river. I'm not really sure what the reason for the check/raise on the turn is. I'm wondering what your river line here is too. I think you might be check/folding it, but I don't think I like that.Edit: My guess is villain has AJ.

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hmmm... well i guess if you c-c the turn/river it's going to cost about the same as this c-r... this board is really really draw heavy... and since dn has pegged his opponent as not being bluff heavy he needs to get value out of draws now because we can be certain he won't fire the river with anything we beat...at the same time we do have some fe against a stronger jack... though the stronger jack will probably call and be contempt with showing this hand down on the riverthe king will most certainly be 3-betting on this board... i think he shows up with a king like neverI'm not sure if there was intent to fire at any of the cards that completed draws... but you absolutely have to shut down on that ugly brick on the river...but i'm prolly way off base :club:

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I would lead the turn like Cobalt said. I think if you are going to call preflop, and get that action on the turn that I'd be betting. You said you thought he was a careful player, so if I take that the way you mean it, I would bet the turn and not be expecting him to bet the turn if I checked to him. I think he shows you 88, 99, or TT here. I really don't expect to see AJ very often.Post more in this forum Daniel, we would really enjoy it :club:

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If I check call turn and river, how much will that likely cost? If I check-raise turn and don't put any more money on the river, who decides how much it costs to essentially "pay him off?" That's just one more hint to think about...

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Does anyone else fold preflop?
Given stack and blind sizes and the tournament we're talking about, calling's pretty reasonable. However, folding's probably preferred for someone that doesn't feel comfortable post-flop.Daniel, it's certainly a very unusual line and thought-process for the hand. Have you come across the situation enough to formulate the approach or is it a more recent insight?

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if you smooth call the turn, aren't you more likely to have to call a bet on the river that's more than the size of your raise on the turn as played? your raise cost you 550, but if you smooth call, he's going to bet at least 650 or so on the river no matter what he has with all the draws out there, hoping you may have missed one of those. assuming that after the flop checks through, you definitely want to show down your hand, i think your line makes it hard for better jacks and QQ/AA to get maximum value against you, and it also looks weak enough to get some extra value off of pairs less than a jack.

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The check raise turn line works very well here IMO.we are OOP, if we did flop trips we would most likely check it here. Occasionally bet it. Except for our tagged info of villain.if we lead the turn, we give our villain with position a chance to steal it by making a raise, which then puts the decision back on us to decide if he slow played a King on the flop or not.Our check on both streets followed by a raise is to appear very strong that we were just waiting to milk out an extra bet. If and when villain calls or raises us, we can assume he has an actual hand.which is why we check the river at this point.Because the villain appears slightly passive in DN's view, he wont make any river bets here without a hand like AK, JJIf villain ever read any of DN's strategy posts about nl holdem, he would realize that Daniel likes to utilize 4th street as a way to manipulate his hand,( or something to that extent).

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honestly, without the nuthugging accusations, I think this could be a good line in trying to see a cheap showdown, if you think he might check behind on the river, the a check/raise can help control how much you put into the pot, where a c/c puts you at the whim of however much villain wants to put in.he very well could be betting TT here, but if he bets enough on the river, it makes a call with J8 tough.honestly, i don't think you see a 3-bet in this spot enough to worry about it, but should it happen, fold unless a big read tells you otherwise.but, i'm a razz specialist, so i could just be spewing tardness.

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I'm surprised villain doesn't bet this river with ATC because it's be such a weird line for you to check flop, checkraise turn, and then checkraise river with trips or better.then again, beyond your trip queens lay down, a villain wouldn't dare bluff you, fearing you'd type "Kx huh?" Call. :club:

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I haven't read replies.Your raise isn't for "info", imo.It's a combination of value and fold equity, imo.I've said it to a million people, and I'll say it to Daniel himself, raising solely for "info" is a huge leak.Having said that, this raise can potentially accomplish more than just giving us information, as it can either be a value raise, or even a bluff.

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I think that I like a turn lead much better than a turn c/r. I understand the logic that by c/r here, you find out if he does have a K and you get value from draws and you also set up a free showdown much like you might with a raise in position. Based on your read of the player, you feel he's unlikely to bluff and when the draw bricks off, he has to legitimately fear that you're going to be c/c with Kx hands as bluff catchers for all of his missed draws that he might bluff on the river.I mean, it looks good I guess. Unless you think he's the type to raise a turn lead with air or a draw, I still think that's the best play, but I actually like what you did here, only because you're playing against very good thinking players who will see all of the layers that you're seeing here.

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Are we trying to imply to the villain here that we might have a king? Isn't the gig up when we check the river?

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I think you're advocating for a raise on the turn so that you'll be able to check the hand down (with the added chance to taking down the pot), at least from what I read?I always run this play, but I only do it in position if I'm worried about getting the hand to end quickly and cheaply. Against a good opponent, he's usually going to bet the river if you check/raise a drawy turn, and then check the river OOP. I know I'd fire just about everything in my range. I'd be fairly sure if you had a king or something big, that you wouldn't risk a check down on the river.

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Are we trying to imply to the villain here that we might have a king? Isn't the gig up when we check the river?
Read my post, which combined with DN's original read, explain why it will probably work for him to check the river.I think that a c/r has to be a legit fear and that a draw often makes up a lot of the villain's range and there would be more value for DN to let the villain bluff the river than there would for DN to fire the river after checking the turn.

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Where does it say anything about an ante in the hand history? Did the converter mess up? How did we end up with 680 in the pot on the flop?Raise to 300 + SB (50) + BB call (300) = 650, so there's an ante of 3 per player?

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Read my post, which combined with DN's original read, explain why it will probably work for him to check the river.
I read them. Does DN actually play a king like that? Do you?

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