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DanielNegreanu

Trip Q's In A 3 Way Pot

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I certainly understand the logic with this passive line, but I think we lose a lot of value and information in this spot. I think we've allowed UTG to call the flop bet with, say, 77 and then make a play on the river because we've shown weakness throughout. It takes a pretty solid read to say, "I'm calling with my trips and if anyone calls behind, I'm done with the hand." What do we do if the board runs out 2 & 3 on the turn and river? Are we still done with the hand?Okay, I think I've organized my thoughts enough to summarize how I feel:I feel like this hand is played poorly on every street, to be honest with you. I hate completing with it from the SB since there are almost no flops we like. I hate check-calling the flop. Once we've check-called the flop, I think betting the turn is mandatory to put UTG to a decision with the button behind him to act. Once we've played the previous streets as played, I think we need to call the river because we've under-repped our hand so dramatically and the UTG player's limping range should be so narrow that a lot of hands that beat us aren't in it. This last sentence is obviously moot with some reads that suggest UTG open-limps AQ, KQ, QJ, JJ, TT, 44.EDIT: Just wanted to add that I feel the range of hands that beat us is exactly 44.
I really like the flop flat call because really, what other choice do we have once we check? I agree leading is best, but if we c/r and one or both opponents call, then what do we do? We're OOP and they could be floating or crushing us. I think that leading the turn is the point in this hand that could've salvaged the operation. Putting UTG to a decision with the button still to act would be huge for us in terms of defining his hand.I think that at these limits, people are more than capable of limping TT or JJ UTG. Not necessarily as a trap, although they'd have that option, but just because it's going to be a really messy hand if the players at the table are calling a lot of raises. Maybe they're just balancing their ranges, who knows.I think that players are definitely capable of limping UTG with the entire range of hands that beat us.Overall I agree with pretty much everything in your post except for the assertion that we need to call because our hand is under-repped. If we feel we're crushed by his range and it's unprofitable to be calling, then a fold is in order.

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Naismith (10:32:22 PM): I think limping UTG is so bad with hands that beat outs.Naismith (10:32:23 PM): Ours.Acid_Knight (10:33:03 PM): yeahNaismith (10:32:31 PM): But that doesn't mean people don't do it.Acid_Knight (10:33:08 PM): in a vacuum it isAcid_Knight (10:33:12 PM): butAcid_Knight (10:33:16 PM): we don't know about the playerAcid_Knight (10:33:26 PM): for all we know, he's a super good proNaismith (10:33:15 PM): Yeah, definitely.Acid_Knight (10:33:50 PM): and he balances the shit out of his ranges by limping every hand he'll play UTG so that he can get away with cheaply seeing a flop with T9s because he could be limping KKAcid_Knight (10:34:00 PM): and he could be limping TTAcid_Knight (10:34:01 PM): and 22Acid_Knight (10:34:03 PM): and everythingNaismith (10:33:39 PM): I also don't hate calling for that same reason.Naismith (10:33:45 PM): Balancing out hands we'll check-call with.Naismith (10:33:51 PM): Even if it costs us 400.Acid_Knight (10:34:29 PM): yeahAcid_Knight (10:34:32 PM): i guessAcid_Knight (10:34:35 PM): i meanAcid_Knight (10:34:43 PM): unless he's taking a hand like 99 hereNaismith (10:34:11 PM): I'm not saying to throw away 400.Acid_Knight (10:34:47 PM): and turning it into a bluffAcid_Knight (10:34:52 PM): we're not beating himAcid_Knight (10:34:58 PM): because he overcalled that flopAcid_Knight (10:35:06 PM): when it's so apparently that a lot of DN's range is Qx thereNaismith (10:34:39 PM): I think it's more likely a pair he's turning into a bluff or a weird v-bet line with AA.Acid_Knight (10:35:27 PM): i still think he checks back AA or KK a lot thereAcid_Knight (10:35:38 PM): or leads the flopAcid_Knight (10:35:40 PM): or doesn't overcallNaismith (10:35:18 PM): Yeah, the flop check makes me think AA-KK is less likely.Acid_Knight (10:36:00 PM): wellAcid_Knight (10:36:03 PM): the flop check is fineAcid_Knight (10:36:08 PM): i mean, if he as KK or AAAcid_Knight (10:36:10 PM): but the overcallAcid_Knight (10:36:13 PM): that's really sketchyAcid_Knight (10:36:27 PM): i mean, it's kind of sketchy to overcall that flop with anything that's NOT a Qx handNaismith (10:35:59 PM): Okay, let's say he has AA or KK there.Naismith (10:36:04 PM): And he does overcall.Naismith (10:36:41 PM): When it gets checked through the turn and checked to you again on the river, I don't think it's terribly unlikely someone v-bets there.Acid_Knight (10:37:28 PM): yeah, but really all he's got is a bluff catcherNaismith (10:37:02 PM): LOLAcid_Knight (10:37:37 PM): what's gonna call?Acid_Knight (10:37:47 PM): what's he gonna get value from?Acid_Knight (10:37:55 PM): that called the flop betAcid_Knight (10:38:05 PM): i dunnoNaismith (10:37:40 PM): Negreanu's J4o!Naismith (10:37:40 PM): That rivered three pair!Naismith (10:38:13 PM): All I know is UTG played the hand badly, I don't care what he had. Naismith (10:38:33 PM): Unless he had two pieces of paper and said, "I know DN has the Q, but my overcall is soooo strong."Acid_Knight (10:39:13 PM): lolAcid_Knight (10:39:16 PM): that'd be impressiveAcid_Knight (10:39:36 PM): but, i already said running a multi street bluff there against 2 players on that dry of a board is suicideAcid_Knight (10:39:46 PM): especially considering, THERE'S NO MONEY IN THE POTNaismith (10:39:08 PM): I think it's super lame to move this hand from our section.Acid_Knight (10:39:47 PM): yeahNaismith (10:41:45 PM): UTG is going to turn out to be, like, Antonius and I'm going to look really smart calling him a donk.

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Naismith (10:41:45 PM): UTG is going to turn out to be, like, Antonius and I'm going to look really smart calling him a donk.
Best line in that whole conversation. :lol:I'm still sticking with my first reply. I would have lead the turn after check/calling and called the river as played.

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Okay, I'm in the camp that this is a fold preflop and I don't think it's even close. I don't see how playing Q8 OOP is going to get us into anything except trouble. What are we hoping to hit with it? Trips? Apparently not even that is a good flop. This hand is a pretty good example of us hitting a dream flop and still not liking our hand.
As I stated before, I opt to make completions with mediocre hands. Myself, I dont like Q8, but thats not too say DN cant just play it.when You play lots of live poker, you focus more on your reads of every player at the table opposed to your hand itself. ( i know i dont have to tell you guys. or quote rounders)But to say that completing is a leak? no way. "not even close, only going to get you into trouble?" If you cant play trash hands OOP successfully than I can see where you would rather just save the 25. Sometimes being first to act has its advantages. and this being a 25/50NL game I think people are capable of knowing when to lay down Top pair no kicker. so i think its safe to say we can rule out the idea that DN is going to spew chips on a board of Q,J,3 if there is any aggression.

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As I stated before, I opt to make completions with mediocre hands. Myself, I dont like Q8, but thats not too say DN cant just play it.when You play lots of live poker, you focus more on your reads of every player at the table opposed to your hand itself. ( i know i dont have to tell you guys. or quote rounders)But to say that completing is a leak? no way. "not even close, only going to get you into trouble?" If you cant play trash hands OOP successfully than I can see where you would rather just save the 25. Sometimes being first to act has its advantages. and this being a 25/50NL game I think people are capable of knowing when to lay down Top pair no kicker. so i think its safe to say we can rule out the idea that DN is going to spew chips on a board of Q,J,3 if there is any aggression.
Cool, so we don't have to worry about losing a lot of chips on a QJ3 board with it and we're not winning any on a QQx flop. Tremendous. Why are we playing it again? :club:

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I agree with this. It's also too likely that Daniel has a Q here and running some weird multi street bluff in a multiway pot is just burning money.
What about the Daniel Negreanu factor? "I ran a complicated bluff on Daniel Negreanu!"

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Cool, so we don't have to worry about losing a lot of chips on a QJ3 board with it and we're not winning any on a QQx flop. Tremendous. Why are we playing it again? :club:
why arent we winning the QQx flop? we havent seen results yet. I'm a big fan that we do win with Qx on this board. which is why i make the river call.

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why arent we winning the QQx flop? we havent seen results yet. I'm a big fan that we do win with Qx on this board. which is why i make the river call.
We aren't winning because we folded. We folded because it's so hard to play a crappy hand like this, even on a dream flop. :club:

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We aren't winning because we folded. We folded because it's so hard to play a crappy hand like this, even on a dream flop. :club:
no trick, reverse psychology posts.

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The day I started folding Q8 from the small blind is the day I quit poker. Seriously, never going to happen unless it's a misclick! Just being in the hand gives you a chance to win it, you don't have to flop anything at all: Example: flop is 7-4-2 and I check my Q-8, it gets checked around. Turn is a 4, I bet 150... and win the pot a very high percentage of the time. Balancing out bluffs like that, bluff catching, while ALSO minimizing your losses when you are trapped is how you make junk hands profitable OOP. A Q-Q-4 flop in a limped pot simply isn't a "dream flop" at all since it's dangerous. A flop like 8-4-2 is closer to a dream flop, or even better Q-8-4 with two of a suit, etc. I can't imagine folding while getting 7 to 1 is a good idea, position or not. As for my play of the hand, also notice the bet size the limper chose on the river. It screams of a value bet. Of course, if he knew that I'd think that it would be a good amount to bet as a bluff, but the idea of a bluff in this situation is very unlikely. Possible, but not likely enough to call getting 2.6 to 1 even though I could also beat AA or KK. Check calling the flop and leading the turn isn't a "bad play" at all and it could give you more information. Having said that, my choice is an even better play IMO as I'll still get information on the turn by checking. If either player bets the turn in that situation making a habit of folding will save you money in the long run.

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I think we can eliminate AA or KK from the utg limper simply because he didn't bet the flop. In this spot he usually bets that flop to see where he is at, if he gets called or c/r he can slow down assuming that someone has a Q. If he is still slowplaying or just c/c with AA or KK after this flop he has no idea if he is good or not.

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The day I started folding Q8 from the small blind is the day I quit poker. Seriously, never going to happen unless it's a misclick! Just being in the hand gives you a chance to win it, you don't have to flop anything at all: Example: flop is 7-4-2 and I check my Q-8, it gets checked around. Turn is a 4, I bet 150... and win the pot a very high percentage of the time. Balancing out bluffs like that, bluff catching, while ALSO minimizing your losses when you are trapped is how you make junk hands profitable OOP.
If the UTG player is Daniel Negreanu, does he want a second Daniel Negreanu to complete in the small blind with Q8o? Surely he can outplay the Daniel Negreanu in the small blind.It's entirely possible that you are making money with junk in the small blind. I'm also pretty sure that I'm not. It's a knowable thing online. Are you using pokertracker?I maintain that 7:1 means almost nothing. If the hands checks around on 4 streets, then yeah. But I don't expect that to happen. In your example, you end up bluffing with air. To try to win the pot, you invested the $25 plus the $150. So the whole gambit is really laying you only 1.17 : 1. That's obviously fine if you're winning the pot often with this bet, but compare this to playing Q8o on the button with a limper in the cut-off. Here you're getting only 3.5 : 1 preflop. After you run a similar bluff (and I recognize that you might need a different board to be effective), you're getting 1:1. The cost of running the bluff (or of snapping off a bluff) dwarfs the cost of the tickets for the hand.So I think it stands to reason that if we can make money completing the small blind we can make money limping on the button with junk. You may do this also successfully. In neither case are you making money on the long odds the preflop call is giving you.

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Is the UTG limper LittleZen?That guy shortstacks anywhere from 5/10 to 100/200 but i think he might be a reg.

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The day I started folding Q8 from the small blind is the day I quit poker. Seriously, never going to happen unless it's a misclick! Just being in the hand gives you a chance to win it, you don't have to flop anything at all: Example: flop is 7-4-2 and I check my Q-8, it gets checked around. Turn is a 4, I bet 150... and win the pot a very high percentage of the time. Balancing out bluffs like that, bluff catching, while ALSO minimizing your losses when you are trapped is how you make junk hands profitable OOP. A Q-Q-4 flop in a limped pot simply isn't a "dream flop" at all since it's dangerous. A flop like 8-4-2 is closer to a dream flop, or even better Q-8-4 with two of a suit, etc. I can't imagine folding while getting 7 to 1 is a good idea, position or not. As for my play of the hand, also notice the bet size the limper chose on the river. It screams of a value bet. Of course, if he knew that I'd think that it would be a good amount to bet as a bluff, but the idea of a bluff in this situation is very unlikely. Possible, but not likely enough to call getting 2.6 to 1 even though I could also beat AA or KK. Check calling the flop and leading the turn isn't a "bad play" at all and it could give you more information. Having said that, my choice is an even better play IMO as I'll still get information on the turn by checking. If either player bets the turn in that situation making a habit of folding will save you money in the long run.
Daniel,I understand that you're getting awesome pot odds, but do you really think that you're going to win enough pots to make this profitable? There is usually a slightly worried feeling about anyone who limps UTG in a FR game actually having a big hand, and then there's still the LP position player to worry about. Nobody is doubting your postflop skill here, but it just seems that it will be a very hard hand to play profitable against 3 other opponents when we are out of position.There is something to be said about image plays and stuff, but if you're gonna play trash from the SB, play 23o. Play a hand that is never dominated. Play a hand that can make a good winning hand. We're completing here with a hand that can never flop a flush, can flop the 2nd nut straight on JT9 or 1 card straight draws and we're not even loving it when we flop top trips because Qx hands are so likely for our opponents to have.So, what the hell are we looking for then? Are we really playing this hand OOP, hoping for a board that misses 3 other players and none of them decide to stab at it and we're able to pick up the pot? Yeah, sometimes we flop 2nd pair and we know we're good. Sometimes we find weakness in our opponent's line and raise to take the pot away. I can do that with any hand. Give me 56o here all day because I can flop more solid hands and I can still prey on the those weak lines the same way that I would with this hand.I am fine with you saying "sometimes I play it and sometimes I don't" but for you to say that the day that you fold Q8o from the SB is the day you quit poker, what do you think you're giving up by folding a hand that weak in a position that weak?

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The day I started folding Q8 from the small blind is the day I quit poker. Seriously, never going to happen unless it's a misclick! Just being in the hand gives you a chance to win it, you don't have to flop anything at all:
Okay, so the point you're making isn't about Q8, it's about the dealer remembering to deal you two cards. Certainly the situation you're talking about, it doesn't matter what you have...you always have the chance to bluff at a flop that missed everyone. If it's limped to you, you're going to complete any two cards on the SB because any two cards give you more of a chance to win the pot than folding. :)I don't think you really want to get too excited about Q8 on an 8-4-2 flop. You're certainly going to have to let that go with any action from the two limpers, right? It's only a "good" flop relative to QQ4 because we're more likely to lose a big one when we're behind on a QQ4 flop. That leaves pretty much only Q8x as flops we're hoping to hitI think live where your reading skills are so amazing, this is a profitable spot for you. I don't even doubt that you can make it work online, but I think in general this is bad advice to give. I think those of us that aren't one of the top poker players in the world would definitely show a loss in the long run not being pickier with which hands we play from the blinds.

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I used to fold this quite regularly from the small blind, but having loosened up my game, I think I complete it more frequently these days. Certainly I think you need to have a lot of trust in the game against these opponents to do it. Acid, you're saying to avoid it because we're going to lose money when we're dominated...but I think we'll be able to avoid losing much money when we're in bad shape. I mean, this situation could just as easily be a board of QQ8r65 where we stack UTG limping with KQ.On the end, I think I reluctantly call the river (assuming that I've got a default "no read"). I mean, I obviously hate it, cause it doesn't seem like there's much we beat, but I agree with the camp saying that we've completely underrepped our hand. UTG can be betting some pairs for value or as bluffs. It's probably not a good play, but it's possible. When the turn checks through, it really looks like no one has a queen to him.As for those of you that suggest he's not playing AA/KK like this (in checking the flop), why wouldn't he? He's already decided to be sneaky by limping in the first place...so he could be going WA/WB (just like Daniel's doing) on the flop.(I'm also disappointed that this got moved out of NL...can't we start a thread in 'Daniel On Strategy' where we link to other threads/sections on the forum?)

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(I'm also disappointed that this got moved out of NL...can't we start a thread in 'Daniel On Strategy' where we link to other threads/sections on the forum?)
I agree with this.

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Acid, you're saying to avoid it because we're going to lose money when we're dominated...but I think we'll be able to avoid losing much money when we're in bad shape. I mean, this situation could just as easily be a board of QQ8r65 where we stack UTG limping with KQ.
You're obviously right about stacking KQ or AQ on the QQ856 board.Let's just say that we make good decisions constantly and are never really stacking off or losing a ton of money where we shouldn't. Even if we lose just a couple of small bets (like this hand, calling the river or not) each time we play it and ARE dominated, I think that the number of singles that we give up with a hand like this is gonna pretty quickly outweight the homeruns that we are able to finally connect with.I'm just being really picky here. If it were Q8s, I'd complete it. If it were Q9o, I'd complete it. For me, there are just enough gaps between the cards and not enough potential to play it. I guess some people can manage to play hands like this out of the SB, but I think for almost everyone else out there, folding preflop is the most +EV decision to make here.Marchant - How do you advocate calling even though you admit that there's really nothing that we can beat? The 2.5-1 pot odds aren't great or anything if we're going to assume that the only thing we are going to win against is AA or KK that chose to value bet the river. I don't think that makes up 30% of his range.

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I would have called.I don't think UTG on a shortstack is playing a strong hand this way, i also think that there's a high chance he's betting the river with air given that lack of action on previous street. And if it's the guy i'm thinking off, or any shortstacker, there's a high chance he'll try and bluff DN out of a hand at the cost of $400.Why are people discounting mid-low PPs from his range? He played this exactly how a lot of people would play 99-55.

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(I'm also disappointed that this got moved out of NL...can't we start a thread in 'Daniel On Strategy' where we link to other threads/sections on the forum?)
The people have spoken!

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I would have called.I don't think UTG on a shortstack is playing a strong hand this way, i also think that there's a high chance he's betting the river with air given that lack of action on previous street. And if it's the guy i'm thinking off, or any shortstacker, there's a high chance he'll try and bluff DN out of a hand at the cost of $400.Why are people discounting mid-low PPs from his range? He played this exactly how a lot of people would play 99-55.
Check calling the button with and a mid pair etc would make sense. But over calling with a mid pair is very unlikely imo. I think this hand plays outexactly like a stronger hand would. The turn check with two others in the pot smells a lot more like better queen/ boat then it does AA, KK

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I would have called.I don't think UTG on a shortstack is playing a strong hand this way, i also think that there's a high chance he's betting the river with air given that lack of action on previous street. And if it's the guy i'm thinking off, or any shortstacker, there's a high chance he'll try and bluff DN out of a hand at the cost of $400.Why are people discounting mid-low PPs from his range? He played this exactly how a lot of people would play 99-55.
This was my first thought given lack of action. I also think you have to lead on the turn.

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I'm just being really picky here. If it were Q8s, I'd complete it. If it were Q9o, I'd complete it. For me, there are just enough gaps between the cards and not enough potential to play it. I guess some people can manage to play hands like this out of the SB, but I think for almost everyone else out there, folding preflop is the most +EV decision to make here.Marchant - How do you advocate calling even though you admit that there's really nothing that we can beat? The 2.5-1 pot odds aren't great or anything if we're going to assume that the only thing we are going to win against is AA or KK that chose to value bet the river. I don't think that makes up 30% of his range.
I certainly see your point. If it's Q7o, I probably toss. So it's a very miniscule baby step. And, I don't disagree that for the vast majority of players (and even a lot of good players), it's the least -EV to dump it pre.There are some things that we can beat (or tie) that have been noted...AA/KK, Q9s, middle pairs. If the action had gone down differently where we'd clearly repped our hand, then I think we could make a more informed decision. I don't get why y'all are so discounting the middle pairs. They're not "likely", but they're possible. UTG could've viewed the action on the flop as button taking a stab with air and Daniel calling with a 4. Once the turn checks through, he's making a 'value-bluff'.I mean, I actually kind of like the way Daniel played it. In fact, I'm really roughly 50/50 on calling or folding this river. I think it's a close decision based on the factors I said. If we had something in the way of reads, I think we can sway the decision.

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I still dont know how this isnt a call.the turn is a big indicator that no one has anything. (or at least, this is how it would be viewed from an outsider)DN checks the river. The shortstack, who realizes this is a small pot, that no one seems very interested in decides to make a large bet, but not too large so it doesnt look like a straight steal. and why not? If he missed completely and has no show down value he might think he needs to make a bet.although i have no idea what he would call the flop with. except a pair or a Q... so...fold?

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Who knows how shortstackers think?

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