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DanielNegreanu

Trip Q's In A 3 Way Pot

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I understand Q8 isn't an easy hand to play, but IMO it's a little too good to justify folding. Here is a question: if you were all in for 25 more would you call or fold? Meaning, you call the SB and then check it down with four players, will you make a profit or not? Clearly I think the answer to that question is an astounding yes. So, the question lies in how well you play post flop. For a bad player, they shouldn't play ANY hands really, as they'll likely make mistakes with every hand they play and lose more money than they would if they just fold every hand! However, for a winning, capable player, it makes sense to call with the price in the hopes that you A) flop the best hand or B) are able to represent something on a ragged flop. I think all of the most successful players would call here with Q8 and not think twice about it.

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For a bad player, they shouldn't play ANY hands really
This made me chuckle. :)Dan, do you use Poker Tracker? If so, can you filter it so it shows your profit in the blinds? If you don't use PT, would you consider getting it and trying it for a month to see what it says?

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I don't know how much credit to give to this read, but I find that with UTG stack, which at 45bb, is often a good sign that someone is kind of a donk, atleast at the lower levels. Unless its a shorty that doubled up most of the better players seem to have atleast 100bb or they're a shorty with something around 20bb. Again this isn't definite but I think it makes it more like that he could have a hand that he either shouldn't be calling the flop with or a hand he shouldn't be betting the river with.Im still not sure if that turns this into a call or not cause like others have said the only hands that we should be beating are AA or KK.
Daniel instant messaged me to come check this hand out, and maybe I'll stop by a little more often to include my thoughts. Preflop is a standard limp for me with a hand like Q8. I think I outplay people a lot more than other people can outplay me in unraised pots. With that said, I think the difference between Q8 and Q7 here is pretty big given the straight possibility with Q8. On the flop I would check almost every time but might lead with bigger Q's like KQ or AQ. If I lead the flop and get raised, I call, and then if I face a big bet on the turn with a hand like Q8-QJ I dont feel too good, whereas with KQ/AQ it's much easier to call down as there is a significant value difference between Q8-QJ and KQ/AQ on this board. I dont like to check-raise here because that builds the pot when there's no reason to since it'd be sick to get lots of value from worse hands, we're out of position, and there's no draws. The guy who overcalls usually means a Q, I think 444 raises a lot here but is also capable of calling as well as 55-JJ peeling for two outs. I expect the Turn to be checked a lot and that's what happened, I'm actually pretty happy about this. However the Turn and the River complete 2 of those pocket pairs that might peel although fairly unlikely so I'm not thrilled about that. Although 89 and AK makes straights I'm not concerned about that either. I dont like to bet the river either because I dont know what would call me that I would beat, especially into two players where a lot of flop strength was shown. Overall, I think DN's play is good here and I'd play it the exact same except maybeeeeeee call once in a while on the river against an unknown UTG, if I know him then i dont even bother calling. But I'd like to call to get a feel for his timing tells with what he had and how he actually plays whatever kind of hand he had since it's cheap information.

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Smart kid this BoostedJ... :-) Y'all can learn a lot from him.
You recruited him to post in your thread, so you have to agree with him :)It is a very good post by BoostedJ.DN - Your other post about calling the all-in is a valid point and it's certainly an instacall for $25 to see the next 5 cards. I think that if you're that confident that Q8o in the SB will be profitable for you here, or even oEV, which helps balance ranges, then go for it. To everyone else here, I'm sure that folding Q8o should usually be the more standard play.

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Can anybody back up a belief in a positive result with Q8o in the SB in full ring NL with results from 100 hands or more? If so, do you play it on the button?

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I understand Q8 isn't an easy hand to play, but IMO it's a little too good to justify folding. Here is a question: if you were all in for 25 more would you call or fold? Meaning, you call the SB and then check it down with four players, will you make a profit or not? Clearly I think the answer to that question is an astounding yes. So, the question lies in how well you play post flop.
To be clear, are you asserting that a superior post flop player should play all the hands that would break-even hot & cold? If so, I think this is a counter example:Villain open raises in early position with a range of nines or better and Ace Jack or better (99+,AJo+,AJs+) for 2.5BB.Folds to hero in the big blind holding the krablar (K3o). The hero is a 2.7 : 1 dog against his range. The pot is laying him 2.7 : 1.I think this is a clear fold against all but the weakest opponents (even considering the opportunity to do a stupid dance) for these reasons:
  1. The hero has poor position.
  2. The hero will have few opportunities to semibluff with this hand.
  3. The hero will have few opportunities to value bet with this hand.

The second and third point apply somewhat less to Q8o, but still significantly, imho.

For a bad player, they shouldn't play ANY hands really, as they'll likely make mistakes with every hand they play and lose more money than they would if they just fold every hand!
Even really bad players make money on big pairs. Bad players can make money on fewer hands than good players, but it's unrealistic to expect them lose money on all their hands unless we're playing extraordinarily deep.
However, for a winning, capable player, it makes sense to call with the price in the hopes that you A) flop the best hand or B) are able to represent something on a ragged flop. I think all of the most successful players would call here with Q8 and not think twice about it.
I suspect that's true of live players. Every time they get involved is a chance to exploit tells. I know I'd be far more likely to play it live than online. I can assure you in either case that it would have absolutely nothing to do with 7 : 1 pot odds and everything to do with the desire to play a hand with a particular opponent. Edited by David_Nicoson

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I believe I would have lead the turn. As played, I think I would have had to call down the river even if just find out what he's limping with UTG. Is there a chance he limped with a suited A4 and figured 2 pair with an ace was good? I don't know who the hell would limp UTG with A4, but it happens.
I really don't think you can flat call the flop bet and then lead right out on the turn. It doesn't make any sense. You would be better off raising the flop if you were going to lead out on the turn because then you would gain a lot more information from villain's reactions. I'm not endorsing a raise on the flop by any means, only saying that a lead out on the turn after c/calling the flop is a bit disingenuous. Also, is there any merit in leading the river after the c/c/c on the turn for a small amount and then folding if raised?

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i don't like this call preflop......the only reason i call here every now and again will be to mix up my play, but for straight up value i think its bad.How do you expect to make profit from this?Your theory is if you play this hand 7 times, your postflop skills are obviously good enough to win it once, thus breaking even or better. But you're problem is your never going to win a big pot, unless you get a freak flop like Q-8-4, Q-Q-8, 8-8-Q, that is just too unlikely and then to get action aswell.Sure you can get a flop like 8-4-2, but once again...you won't win a big pot here, u'll either just pickup the 200 pot, or run into an overpair, a set, or whatever...which is alot more likely with the UTG limper....(but you didnt give us a read on him). Thats just another flop like the one that came (Q-Q-4) where you are going to just pickup the 200 pot or throw away some extra chips.So you paid $25 hoping to be able to pickoff a $175 pot......but ironically the hand ended up costing you exactly an extra $175. Which WILL happen 1 in 7 times i'm afraid, either just from you making a bluff trying to pickup the pot, or getting a small piece of it and playing it out like you did.So let me get this straight:- You have a hand where your not even happy with flopping 3 of a kind- With an UTG limper- 3 other players in the hand- Out of positionwhy bother playing it? WHY!?!Just pick a better spot, this isnt a tournament...the blinds aren't rising....patience.....Just because you have good postflop skills does not mean you should pick horrible spots, you will have plenty more opportunities, just pick a better spot and use your great postflop skills there where you are going to be more profitable more often :)Anyway thats just what i think, but like i said......if you're just trying to mix up your play thats fine.....and post flop i think you played it perfectly, i agree with your check on the turn for the reasons you said.That is all

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Can anybody back up a belief in a positive result with Q8o in the SB in full ring NL with results from 100 hands or more? If so, do you play it on the button?
the idea isnt to play Q8o as a premium hand. its the fact that we already have 1/2 the bet required to see a flop in, and we're being offered 7-1 on the other half.Not really the same idea as playing it from other positions

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To be clear, are you asserting that a superior post flop player should play all the hands that would break-even hot & cold? If so, I think this is a counter example:Villain open raises in early position with a range of nines or better and Ace Jack or better (99+,AJo+,AJs+) for 2.5BB.Folds to hero in the small blind holding the krablar (K3o). The hero is a 2.7 : 1 dog against his range. The pot is laying him 2.7 : 1.I think this is a clear fold against all but the weakest opponents (even considering the opportunity to do a stupid dance) for these reasons:
again, this is like comparing apples and oranges.you assign villain a range for opening from EP. we obviously do not call the bet here when we know we're pretty well dominated and have a small chance at outplaying someone OOP vs their range. The point that pot odds alone shouldnt be the only factor is obvious. in the original case, UTG limped. this can be any PP, any suited connecting cards, any face cards, maybe a suited ace.. etc... followed by a few more limps.I really dont like bluffing in multiway pots, but thats not to say it cant be done effectively , if the flop doesnt hit anyone "hard enough" we can certainly take it down from SB since we also have a large range. and adding to the times we do hit an actual hand

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the idea isnt to play Q8o as a premium hand. its the fact that we already have 1/2 the bet required to see a flop in, and we're being offered 7-1 on the other half.Not really the same idea as playing it from other positions
Right.So we're looking for someone who has a large sample size of NL hands, who plays Q8o from the SB, who has a winrate with it, which is better than the cost of the small blind.

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Right.So we're looking for someone who has a large sample size of NL hands, who plays Q8o from the SB, who has a winrate with it, which is better than the cost of the small blind.
well, im gonna go out on a limb here, but i think anyone on this forum who would have enough hands, that its possible that he had Q,8o in the sb 100 times is probably among the `Dont complete Q8o` group. then again, who knows.16 combinations of Q8o, 1,326 variations of 2 card starting hands.1 in 83 chance of seeing any 1 version of Q,8o. factor in the fullring aspect and having to get it in sb, + having it limp around to you.= I have no idea.but hopefully pokerplayer24 sees this and completes Q8

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Daniel instant messaged me to come check this hand out, and maybe I'll stop by a little more often to include my thoughts. Preflop is a standard limp for me with a hand like Q8. I think I outplay people a lot more than other people can outplay me in unraised pots. With that said, I think the difference between Q8 and Q7 here is pretty big given the straight possibility with Q8. On the flop I would check almost every time but might lead with bigger Q's like KQ or AQ. If I lead the flop and get raised, I call, and then if I face a big bet on the turn with a hand like Q8-QJ I dont feel too good, whereas with KQ/AQ it's much easier to call down as there is a significant value difference between Q8-QJ and KQ/AQ on this board. I dont like to check-raise here because that builds the pot when there's no reason to since it'd be sick to get lots of value from worse hands, we're out of position, and there's no draws. The guy who overcalls usually means a Q, I think 444 raises a lot here but is also capable of calling as well as 55-JJ peeling for two outs. I expect the Turn to be checked a lot and that's what happened, I'm actually pretty happy about this. However the Turn and the River complete 2 of those pocket pairs that might peel although fairly unlikely so I'm not thrilled about that. Although 89 and AK makes straights I'm not concerned about that either. I dont like to bet the river either because I dont know what would call me that I would beat, especially into two players where a lot of flop strength was shown. Overall, I think DN's play is good here and I'd play it the exact same except maybeeeeeee call once in a while on the river against an unknown UTG, if I know him then i dont even bother calling. But I'd like to call to get a feel for his timing tells with what he had and how he actually plays whatever kind of hand he had since it's cheap information.
I don't think UTG had a queen although taking this one hand out of the blue doesn't give me a feel for a player. If this were my first hand against the the UTG player and I had no read on him yet. I would probably call the river to get a better feel for his play. All told it was a relatively cheap info hand. HE might very well have 1010 or JJ . I disagree with you slightly though Boosted J. I think he could have AK. He might have called the flop thinking the button was bluffing and daniel was calling with a 4. I'm not saying I'd have called there with AK but others might have. When I first saw you folded Daniel I thought are you nuts? But that is because at the levels I play at the player could have called with anything postflop and they simply don't deserve that much respect.

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lol i misread the hand.....i was assuming he limped/called pf.........thats why i eliminated AA's and KK's from his range.....i still dont think AA or KK's value bet river.........better Queen, still jams flop, as do 4's...hoping to get called by a hand like DN's....that said, i really think your getting shown 10's or JJ's 90-95% of the time......that just my guess

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I really don't think you can flat call the flop bet and then lead right out on the turn. It doesn't make any sense. You would be better off raising the flop if you were going to lead out on the turn because then you would gain a lot more information from villain's reactions. I'm not endorsing a raise on the flop by any means, only saying that a lead out on the turn after c/calling the flop is a bit disingenuous. Also, is there any merit in leading the river after the c/c/c on the turn for a small amount and then folding if raised?
Fair enough. I only said I'd lead out on the turn because I've taken down many pots this way with hands like this when I sense weakness. I don't do it very often online, just when I get antsy. I do it when I sense weakness in live games, but not very often either.I still call the river just for the info of knowing what UTG is capable of limping with.

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The point that pot odds alone shouldnt be the only factor is obvious.
That would explain why it was so easy to debunk. :club:

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well, im gonna go out on a limb here, but i think anyone on this forum who would have enough hands, that its possible that he had Q,8o in the sb 100 times is probably among the `Dont complete Q8o` group. then again, who knows.16 combinations of Q8o, 1,326 variations of 2 card starting hands.1 in 83 chance of seeing any 1 version of Q,8o. factor in the fullring aspect and having to get it in sb, + having it limp around to you.= I have no idea.
It's 12 combinations.Expect to see Q8o in the SB once every ~1000 hands.(1 / ((4 * 3) / (52 choose 2))) * 9 = 995Multiply by a factor to account for raised pots= I have no ideaBut I'll make something up anyway. Figure 2 raised pots for every limped one, so I'll say once every 3,000 hands. So I'm looking for a database with 300,000 hands.

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i like the burger youtube vid. when will the world start caring about slowly killing each other. the fda doesnt seem to care. you being a influential guy and a vegan im surprised you havent had more to say about the food in america. nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care.

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i like the burger youtube vid. when will the world start caring about slowly killing each other. the fda doesnt seem to care. you being a influential guy and a vegan im surprised you havent had more to say about the food in america. nobody seems to notice, nobody seems to care.
people notice, and people care. supersize me, for example.nothing will change because a % of the population loves that food and that lifestyle, so they fuel the problems.its really your own problem if you live on a poor diet.

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Alright, I will show you how green I am....Q8o SB = CALL.Post flop = CALL/RAISE (I would have raised)Post turn = CALL/RAISE (I would have bet, with the stack size hero is supporting, I would have made them all pay2play) * My guess is that UTG and button would have folded.Post river= RAISE (At this point hero had the best hand, take what you can)I surmise that Q8o was the best hand, I would guess that button had paint, and UTG was bluffing, perhaps had a T. But no-one that stayed in for the flop had a flush..... but, then I am green.

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Preflop: Hero is SB with 8heart.gif, Qspade.gif. UTG calls $50, 5 folds, Button calls $50, Hero completes, BB checks.
Thats a raise or - of course much more often - a fold. Dont limp with trash in SB. Worse, dont limp trash in SB and get passive on a great flop. Thats just mathematics gone really wrong. As for the river, I definatly like the fold. Against a random player I think you did the right move.

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Alright, I will show you how green I am....Q8o SB = CALL.Post flop = CALL/RAISE (I would have raised)Post turn = CALL/RAISE (I would have bet, with the stack size hero is supporting, I would have made them all pay2play) * My guess is that UTG and button would have folded.Post river= RAISE (At this point hero had the best hand, take what you can)I surmise that Q8o was the best hand, I would guess that button had paint, and UTG was bluffing, perhaps had a T. But no-one that stayed in for the flop had a flush..... but, then I am green.
There's not a flush possible on this board.If you think UTG is bluffing, then raising or betting just discourages him from continuing. Thinking your ahead most of the time isn't sufficient reason to be aggressive. If it turns out that Q8 is the winner against a bluffer, check/call is much more profitable.

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