Benazir Bhutto Assasinated

[jmkiser 0]

I'm as angry as you are at their actions, Lois, but it isn't as simple as you try to make it out to be.It's not a "kill you before they kill me" problem.What they are doing is relative to the space they exist in. Yes, I worry about the uprising in Europe and groups like CAIR in America, but you have to make large claims to justify an invasion on an invisible foe. I realize that our military is doing the best they can in fighting, but even you have to recognize that this isn't typical military warfare. Our troops aren't in the Middle East just fighting a war. The politicians (no, not Bush bashing) are using them as a police force and you know that. If it was as simple as "they hate us for our freedoms and will do anything and everything to murder us all", then I would've advocated taking care of them a long time ago. Problem is that it's not and that our presence has lasting effects. You can't begin to tell me that al-qaeda would have grown by the leaps and bounds that it has if it wasn't for our presence in Iraq. OBL said it himself that it's better that we're here so he can pick us off on his home turf. He also said that he's mad in the first place BECAUSE of the American presence in the Middle East... and no, I am not justifying his actions in any way, but you have to understand them to create an effective response. As an American citizen, I don't understand what in the world nor why in the world our leaders are doing what they're doing.... They could, also, be a lot more helpful in giving us some details, too (and no, I'm not asking for the strategic positioning of American troops... I just want some basic questions answered instead of avoided... questions that are being asked by lots of people for a long time).There is also no justification to think if we pulled out, they would follow us here. Take Iran for an example. They have absolutely no military power. The worst they can do is "possibly" have a nuclear weapon in a few years. Countries all over the world have nuclear power and we're going to fret about Iran? Is terrorism a threat? Yes... and ANY terrorism is threatening. We have our own home grown terrorists, too. Point being is that anyone can be a terrorist if they're angry enough and the presence in the Middle East (I'll even give you that Iraq is doing better) isn't going to stop that. The "war on terrorism" is the same thing as the "war on drugs". The second you pop one cell, the next one is MORE then happy to replace. I'm not saying that we shouldn't act nor do I say that I have the answer. But there are plenty of reasons as to why what we're doing isn't working. The average American citizen thinks this as well.Meh, I could go on and on.... my point is that we need to rethink what we're doing in the entire world and why we're doing it. If they really were such a huge threat to us, then we definitely should do something about it. And yes, their actions are insane, crazy, wrong, disgusting, horrific, etc... a lot of it wouldn't be happening in the degrees that it is if it wasn't for our foreign policy (not blaming "America" as Rush and Hannity love to say about Ron Paul supporters... we are very clear about what we disagree with). Another effect of the war, I also am very uncomfortable with the power that the executive branch has been utilizing since 9/11. And I say that, strictly, as a conservative. I don't know how Republicans can look at the transformation in government and be comfortable with what is going on. They can give you every excuse in the world as to what they're doing, but is all the power they are utilizing really justified? The Congress shouldn't be able to rape our tax dollars in the way they find themselves able to... They get to cut too many loopholes with how they spend our tax dollars. The judicial and executive branches should be effectively working against that, but instead the president is just asking for more money for the war AND is NOT doing enough to curb the mediocrity of what the legislators produce.Woah, got off track again...Eh, so yeah, it's not "us or them"yeahsomething like that

[Loismustdie 0]

I don't think we need to fight terrorism...apparently we just need to fight extemism...in any way.If you are a christian extremist (think crusades) then you need to dieIf you are a muslim extemist ... then you need to die.We just need to kill everyone that thinks that killing people is ok. Sound about right.

Think realistically. As a country what should we do? Nothing? If that the case, when did we lose our sense of right and wrong? Would we have allowed Nazi germany to just do it's thing, look the other way? I think the way some of you think we most definitely would have. For lack of better words we have lost our nerve to WORK for freedom, to die for it. This way of thinking that we stand for historically has cost lives, it always does.

[Loismustdie 0]

I'm as angry as you are at their actions, Lois, but it isn't as simple as you try to make it out to be.It's not a "kill you before they kill me" problem.What they are doing is relative to the space they exist in. Yes, I worry about the uprising in Europe and groups like CAIR in America, but you have to make large claims to justify an invasion on an invisible foe. I realize that our military is doing the best they can in fighting, but even you have to recognize that this isn't typical military warfare. Our troops aren't in the Middle East just fighting a war. The politicians (no, not Bush bashing) are using them as a police force and you know that. If it was as simple as "they hate us for our freedoms and will do anything and everything to murder us all", then I would've advocated taking care of them a long time ago. Problem is that it's not and that our presence has lasting effects. You can't begin to tell me that al-qaeda would have grown by the leaps and bounds that it has if it wasn't for our presence in Iraq. OBL said it himself that it's better that we're here so he can pick us off on his home turf. He also said that he's mad in the first place BECAUSE of the American presence in the Middle East... and no, I am not justifying his actions in any way, but you have to understand them to create an effective response. As an American citizen, I don't understand what in the world nor why in the world our leaders are doing what they're doing.... They could, also, be a lot more helpful in giving us some details, too (and no, I'm not asking for the strategic positioning of American troops... I just want some basic questions answered instead of avoided... questions that are being asked by lots of people for a long time).There is also no justification to think if we pulled out, they would follow us here. Take Iran for an example. They have absolutely no military power. The worst they can do is "possibly" have a nuclear weapon in a few years. Countries all over the world have nuclear power and we're going to fret about Iran? Is terrorism a threat? Yes... and ANY terrorism is threatening. We have our own home grown terrorists, too. Point being is that anyone can be a terrorist if they're angry enough and the presence in the Middle East (I'll even give you that Iraq is doing better) isn't going to stop that. The "war on terrorism" is the same thing as the "war on drugs". The second you pop one cell, the next one is MORE then happy to replace. I'm not saying that we shouldn't act nor do I say that I have the answer. But there are plenty of reasons as to why what we're doing isn't working. The average American citizen thinks this as well.Meh, I could go on and on.... my point is that we need to rethink what we're doing in the entire world and why we're doing it. If they really were such a huge threat to us, then we definitely should do something about it. And yes, their actions are insane, crazy, wrong, disgusting, horrific, etc... a lot of it wouldn't be happening in the degrees that it is if it wasn't for our foreign policy (not blaming "America" as Rush and Hannity love to say about Ron Paul supporters... we are very clear about what we disagree with). Another affect of the war, I also am very uncomfortable with the power that the executive branch has been utilizing since 9/11. And I say that, strictly, as a conservative. I don't know how Republicans can look at the transformation in government and be comfortable with what is going on. They can give you every excuse in the world as to what they're doing, but is all the power they are utilizing really justified? The Congress shouldn't be able to rape our tax dollars in the way they find themselves able to... They get to cut too many loopholes with how they spend our tax dollars. The judicial and executive branches should be effectively working against that, but instead the president is just asking for more money for the war AND is NOT doing enough to curb the mediocrity of what the legislators produce.Woah, got off track again...Eh, so yeah, it's not "us or them"yeahsomething like that

I tend to agree with alot of this, but I guess I am amazed at the lack of outrage and the general feeling that maybe this woman should have just shut up. This was a person WILLING to die for a cause, and I cannot think of one politician that can say that anymore. We should be ANGRY at the enemy right now, justifiably angry. Some of the things I read on this site are just ridiculous, it's like people believe that if we were not in Iraq than bombings and terrorism wouldn't be happening. that just isn't the case. I agree with you on the President not doing enough. i think he should have told some of these people long ago to STFU and try them for treason, Pelosi comes to mind right off the bat, but what is he to do? Right now, just the fact that he won the battle for funds is a victory in itself, which is the problem. We are so busy politicking that we forget that these little political victories don't mean dick because we are still not showing a strong enough force, we are not showing resolve, what we are doing is projecting a fractured image that can be beat, and I dare say destroyed. America is as strong as it's people, and it's people have lost there way.

[jmkiser 0]

Think realistically. As a country what should we do? Nothing? If that the case, when did we lose our sense of right and wrong? Would we have allowed Nazi germany to just do it's thing, look the other way? I think the way some of you think we most definitely would have. For lack of better words we have lost our nerve to WORK for freedom, to die for it. This way of thinking that we stand for historically has cost lives, it always does.

C'monnnnnnnseriously?We've lost our nerve for freedom?Even from a third person point of view who knows nothing about politics can look at the grass roots uprising FOR FREEDOM! The message of fighting for our freedom is louder then it has been in a long long long long long long long time.People no longer stand for the atrocities of big government. What's more important is what is happening on our soil right now. Sure, maybe.... maybe, you can justify EVERY pre-emptive action that we've taken....... cool.But you can NOT deny that it is ruining the structure and purpose of our government! Our own country is going to absolute shit and nothing is being done about it.You claim that we've lost our nerve to fight for freedom. Wrong.So many of us fight for it every day.

[tskillz187 0]

Think realistically. As a country what should we do? Nothing? If that the case, when did we lose our sense of right and wrong? Would we have allowed Nazi germany to just do it's thing, look the other way? I think the way some of you think we most definitely would have. For lack of better words we have lost our nerve to WORK for freedom, to die for it. This way of thinking that we stand for historically has cost lives, it always does.

What are you so angry about? That Bhutto was killed? Are you framing her in a positive light? She was _more_ corrupt than Musharraf. I would be surprised if Musharraf was behind her death, a LOT of people in Pakistan want to kill her.Jews were hated more than Nazis in the late 1930s. We weren't all high and mighty on the freedom machine at first over there. IMO this is a national issue. Maybe I'm overly naive, but Bhutto was gonna get killed, she only robbed the shit out of her nation.

[jmkiser 0]

One of the main questions that so many want answered isWhat are the happenings in the Middle East that are a danger to our country and our freedom?

[tskillz187 0]

I tend to agree with alot of this, but I guess I am amazed at the lack of outrage and the general feeling that maybe this woman should have just shut up. This was a person WILLING to die for a cause, and I cannot think of one politician that can say that anymore. We should be ANGRY at the enemy right now, justifiably angry. Some of the things I read on this site are just ridiculous, it's like people believe that if we were not in Iraq than bombings and terrorism wouldn't be happening. that just isn't the case.

What was her cause? Who is this enemy you're talking about? Taliban? Pakistan? Muslims? These are not all one and the same. I'm not trying to set you up, I honestly don't know where you stand on Bhutto and who you are angry at.

[dapokerbum 0]

That's just it...we are fighting for democracy over in Iraq or so we have been told. We want them to be a free state. Well guess what, if the individuals in that country wanted democracy so damn much why didn't they try to get it the old fashioned way, the way that america became america, we fought like hell for it. Nobody came to OUR country and helped us along. we fought and won. Then there was dissention in the new americas and what did we do to solve it...we fought again, this time against ourselves and look what happened. We didn't have the soviets come over and help us because they thought that the north was right. We fought it out ourselves to be the best country we could be.that's kind of a ramble, but my point is who gave US the right to tell THEM what to do and how to act as a govn't.We should have done the responsible thing and sat down to talk and get inspectors in, but no our president decided that might is right and that we should just invade on a FALSE pretense...oh well I am just glad that the report on Iran came back as negative or else we might have another unjustified war on our hand that would be delivered to us as a fight for democracy.sorry if this was a bunch of incoherent ramblings, it is hard to put my thoughts completely together when i type!

[Loismustdie 0]

One of the main questions that so many want answered isWhat are the happenings in the Middle East that are a danger to our country and our freedom?

So, it's about our plot in life vs. what is humanly acceptable conditions. As long as it's not us than it's all good? The U.S. MUST be at the forefront of any ideological battle as this because if we don't we are just as guilty as those who would cause the problem. We posses the power to step up an fight. We have to use that, or risk being worthless in the eys of history. History books, 40 years from now, what will they say, that we didn't try when we could have or that we tried harder? That we saw injustice and acted or looked the other way. These things MATTER. How would we look at Lincoln if he said, "Meh, Darkies be damned, I need some free labor."

[JoeyJoJo 18]

Nobody came to OUR country and helped us along.

I don't think that's right.

[Loismustdie 0]

That's just it...we are fighting for democracy over in Iraq or so we have been told. We want them to be a free state. Well guess what, if the individuals in that country wanted democracy so damn much why didn't they try to get it the old fashioned way, the way that america became america, we fought like hell for it. Nobody came to OUR country and helped us along. we fought and won. Then there was dissention in the new americas and what did we do to solve it...we fought again, this time against ourselves and look what happened. We didn't have the soviets come over and help us because they thought that the north was right. We fought it out ourselves to be the best country we could be.that's kind of a ramble, but my point is who gave US the right to tell THEM what to do and how to act as a govn't.We should have done the responsible thing and sat down to talk and get inspectors in, but no our president decided that might is right and that we should just invade on a FALSE pretense...oh well I am just glad that the report on Iran came back as negative or else we might have another unjustified war on our hand that would be delivered to us as a fight for democracy.sorry if this was a bunch of incoherent ramblings, it is hard to put my thoughts completely together when i type!

Actually, France helped us fight for our freedom so did some groups of indians. Go on and make a case for why we shouldn't help out others though, sounds like Nazi Germany would have been A-OK to you.

[socalpoker_j 1]

I don't think that's right.

I guess he forgot about the French in something called the American Revolution.

[Loismustdie 0]

I don't think that's right.

Lol. Man of many words here.

[tskillz187 0]

So, it's about our plot in life vs. what is humanly acceptable conditions. As long as it's not us than it's all good? The U.S. MUST be at the forefront of any ideological battle as this because if we don't we are just as guilty as those who would cause the problem.

The U.S. was on the forefront of stopping the spread of communism in the Middle East. We gathered up all these Muslims and told them how communists had no religion and would have no afterlife because of the way they lived. We helped scare up a crazy group of soldiers (Mujahideens, might have splled that wrong) to fight in the name of Islam. They won and kicked the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan.These are currently the exact same individuals that we need to kill, because they are fanatics and hate us.That wasn't a very long term victory for the US.

[Balloon guy 158]

One of the main questions that so many want answered isWhat are the happenings in the Middle East that are a danger to our country and our freedom?

Oil and the economy of the entire world ie world recession that will plunge the starvation rates to plague levels.Oh and I think bush wanted to impress his dad.yea, those two things

[dapokerbum 0]

I guess he forgot about the French in something called the American Revolution.

Dammit...i knew history was supposed to be an imprtant class to listen in.but i still stand by my case with the civil war. Unless another country helped in that?

[Balloon guy 158]

The U.S. was on the forefront of stopping the spread of communism in the Middle East. We gathered up all these Muslims and told them how communists had no religion and would have no afterlife because of the way they lived. We helped scare up a crazy group of soldiers (Mujahideens, might have splled that wrong) to fight in the name of Islam. They won and kicked the Soviet Union out of Afghanistan.These are currently the exact same individuals that we need to kill, because they are fanatics and hate us.That wasn't a very long term victory for the US.

you know before communism they were slightly bent on world domination, killing of infidels and hatred for outsiders?It was the French general blah blah that defeated their conquest of all of Europe in blah blah and stopped them the first time.

[tskillz187 0]

Lois,I think it's very dangerous to say we need to be at the forefron of any idelogical battles. It stretches us way too thin, and there are wayyyyyy too many injustices going on in the world. We need to fight against every dictatorship and junta? It's just not possible.

[Balloon guy 158]

Dammit...i knew history was supposed to be an imprtant class to listen in.but i still stand by my case with the civil war. Unless another country helped in that?

oooo, yea, the Germans and the Indiansyea, might want to sit this one out there big guy.

[tskillz187 0]

you know before communism they were slightly bent on world domination, killing of infidels and hatred for outsiders?It was the French general blah blah that defeated their conquest of all of Europe in blah blah and stopped them the first time.

Who are you talking about and in which battle? I think it's pretty naive to think that to win the fight on terrorism we must kill all Muslims.Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are the 3 closest religions in the entire world. If they can't coexist there is no hope for any religious diversity.

[dapokerbum 0]

Actually, France helped us fight for our freedom so did some groups of indians. Go on and make a case for why we shouldn't help out others though, sounds like Nazi Germany would have been A-OK to you.

Here is why we shouldn't help others the way that we are:A) We are not the world policeB ) We are not the moral policeC ) We are spending billions of dollars on an unjustified warD ) We are spending thousands of lives on an unjustified warE ) There are more peaceful ways of dealing with terrorists (think Iran & North Korea)Just tell me what would have happened had we not invaded Iraq. Yes that is a vague question because we will never know but seriously would we still be on a nation building agenda. I highly doubt it. You have been brainwashed by the bush administration that this is what jesus would do so we should instantly support it.Well i for one call bull shit

[Balloon guy 158]

Who are you talking about and in which battle? I think it's pretty naive to think that to win the fight on terrorism we must kill all Muslims.Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are the 3 closest religions in the entire world. If they can't coexist there is no hope for any religious diversity.

Not ALL of them...just SOME of them.

[Loismustdie 0]

Lois,I think it's very dangerous to say we need to be at the forefron of any idelogical battles. It stretches us way too thin, and there are wayyyyyy too many injustices going on in the world. We need to fight against every dictatorship and junta? It's just not possible.

I don't know, I thought that the Air Force Aim High thing was always a good ideal. I realize that in my battle to keep my daughter from ****ing losers along the way she will probably **** some losers. That doesn't mean I am not going to try and stop the loser ****ing cycle.

[dapokerbum 0]

oooo, yea, the Germans and the Indiansyea, might want to sit this one out there big guy.

okay, but my ideals are still my ideals so i will go ahead and sit in the discussion.because without discussion how can we truly be sane

[tskillz187 0]

Here is why we shouldn't help others the way that we are:A) We are not the world policeB ) We are not the moral policeC ) We are spending billions of dollars on an unjustified warD ) We are spending thousands of lives on an unjustified warE ) There are more peaceful ways of dealing with terrorists (think Iran & North Korea)Just tell me what would have happened had we not invaded Iraq. Yes that is a vague question because we will never know but seriously would we still be on a nation building agenda. I highly doubt it. You have been brainwashed by the bush administration that this is what jesus would do so we should instantly support it.Well i for one call bull shit

Meh, I don't think your argument is very well thought out. This just seems more like angry banter, based on personal opinion. Not that your opinion sucks or anything, it's just not easy to have an argument with someone when they are yelling that they're right because Bush is an idiot.I don't think sitting out and hoping terrorists don't attack us is the best possible solution to curbing terrorism in the United States and the rest of the world. I think referring to Iran and NK as successes is kind of funny.