Ellsbury/santana Trade

[Swift_Psycho 1]

"Yanks set deadline on SantanaIrked Steinbrenner gives Twins until Monday to accept deal"http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...7&fext=.jsp

[aadams_22 3]

"Yanks set deadline on SantanaIrked Steinbrenner gives Twins until Monday to accept deal"http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...7&fext=.jsp

that's all they were talking about on XM todayI'll believe it when I see it

[Swift_Psycho 1]

that's all they were talking about on XM todayI'll believe it when I see it

Oh absolutely I agree. I'd be surprised if anyone actually takes this seriously after they caved on the A-Rod situation.

[Cappy37 0]

The irony of this all is the sox don't need Santana. They score 5-6 runs a game. They don't need somone who throws CG shutouts. Dice K won 15 games and he crapped the bed in 1/2 of his starts.The Sox need a Storm Davis/Dave Stewart type from the A's glory days. Someone to post a 3.50 and collect 20+ easy wins.A's got a guy named Dan Haren who fits that bill, comes cheaper, and for 1/2 the salary. hmmm..

[ol'number7 0]

can anyone explain what the big deal is about Jon Lester? Looks THOUROUGHLY average to me... I'd jump on the Hughes-Cabrera-1 more prospect deal with the Yankees, I think Hughes will be an allstar soon enough...

[Buckeye Hughes 0]

The irony of this all is the sox don't need Santana. They score 5-6 runs a game. They don't need somone who throws CG shutouts. Dice K won 15 games and he crapped the bed in 1/2 of his starts.The Sox need a Storm Davis/Dave Stewart type from the A's glory days. Someone to post a 3.50 and collect 20+ easy wins.A's got a guy named Dan Haren who fits that bill, comes cheaper, and for 1/2 the salary. hmmm..

[X] Storm Davis reference[X] Thread delivers

[Moneyball16 0]

can anyone explain what the big deal is about Jon Lester? Looks THOUROUGHLY average to me... I'd jump on the Hughes-Cabrera-1 more prospect deal with the Yankees, I think Hughes will be an allstar soon enough...

New Red Sox offer seems to be Crisp, Lester, Lowrie, Masterson and Kalish. I agree about Lester he seems very overrated, even more so than Ellsbury. Probably has something to do with the ring and the cancer.I also dont get the Yankees love for Alan Horne. I dont see this guy ever being in New York's rotation.

[ol'number7 0]

New Red Sox offer seems to be Crisp, Lester, Lowrie, Masterson and Kalish. I agree about Lester he seems very overrated, even more so than Ellsbury. Probably has something to do with the ring and the cancer.I also dont get the Yankees love for Alan Horne. I dont see this guy ever being in New York's rotation.

This trade would suck. Without Ellsbury, forget it. I still like the Hughes-Cabrera combo platter...

[MDXS 0]

can anyone explain what the big deal is about Jon Lester? Looks THOUROUGHLY average to me... I'd jump on the Hughes-Cabrera-1 more prospect deal with the Yankees, I think Hughes will be an allstar soon enough...

The big deal about Lester is that he's a 23 year-old left-handed pitcher who has a career record of 11-2 while pitching with cancer/post-chemotherapy. The comp I most often see attached to him is Andy Pettitte. He certainly needs to improve to get as good as Pettitte was, but most 23 year-old pitchers tend to improve at least a little. He should look better by default next year, having a healthy off-season. I think the Sox package is better as it stands now. Hughes is certainly a top prospect and is certainly better than Lester...no argument there. The problem is with the rest of the package. Melky isn't that good to be blunt, and it doesn't look like the second prospect is going to be of much help to the Twins, at least not right away. Lester, Crisp, and Lowrie will all be able to start right away for the Twins. Masterson could be up by the end of 2008. Masterson, I've heard, has what is described as the best sinker in the minors. The question with him is if he'll develop his other pitches enough to be able to start for a major league team. And then you get Kalish too, whose name I've heard, but don't know much about. The hidden benefit to the Sox deal is that the talent is spread around...if Hughes gets hurt, the Twins don't get much of value at all.I wouldn't count the Yankees out yet...and the Angels certainly have the firepower to top the Sox offer.EDIT: SoxProspects has Masterson, Lowrie, and Kalish as the 3rd, 4th, and 8th best prospects in the Sox system (which is frequently rated around 10th in baseball). Lester would slot 3 if he were considered a prospect. Crisp is a gold-glove caliber centerfielder. If this deal goes through, it isn't like the Twins are getting robbed blind. They're getting plenty of cost-controlled talent, fill holes, and get to cut payroll to boot.EDIT2: BPro has Masterson, Lowrie, and Kalish as 3-4-5 in the Sox farm system. Reading up on Kalish, seems he can really rake, but he's in A-ball and a long way off from the majors.

[MDXS 0]

New Red Sox offer seems to be Crisp, Lester, Lowrie, Masterson and Kalish. I agree about Lester he seems very overrated, even more so than Ellsbury. Probably has something to do with the ring and the cancer.

The Lester love predates the cancer by a longshot. He was coming up with Papelbon and I'd hear 4-5 times as much about Lester than Jon despite them both being considered the Sox top prospects. He's young and the cancer thing muddies the waters, so it's hard to get a grasp of what he's capable of. Based on what I've seen the last two years, I don't think think he'll develop into a top of the rotation starter. He walks a bunch of guys and gets into a lot of jams. Again though, how much is health? How much is inexperience? Ellsbury is overrated these days....especially by Sox fans (you can't blame them though...he looked like Cobb out there from August through the World Series. Dude scored from second on a passed ball...who doesn't love that stuff?), but when you have a centerfielder who can put up a .300/.360/.420 line with 15 home runs, 40 steals, and plus defense (I don't think these numbers are unreasonable for Jacoby...if not now, then in a year or two), you've got yourself a valuable player.

[MDXS 0]

Will Carroll is saying that the deal is all but done. Lester, Masterson, Kalish, and a centerfielder.

[Moneyball16 0]

Im not saying that I dont think Lester and Ellsbury are good prospects I just think they are overrated like alot of past and present Yankee/Red Sox prospects. I actually think you have Ellsburys future basically spot on with the 300/360/420 and 40 steals but Id definitely take the under on 15 homers.Also Baseball Prospectus has Masterson and Lowrie also at 3 and 4 but they have Kalish at 5. If ranked they have Lester between Buchholz and Ellsbury.

[timwakefield 68]

Will Carroll is saying that the deal is all but done. Lester, Masterson, Kalish, and a centerfielder.

Crisp or Ellsbury???? There's a big difference - If it's the former, this is an amazing trade for the Sox, and if it's the latter then it's only a great trade for the Sox .

[timwakefield 68]

(you can't blame them though...he looked like Cobb out there from August through the World Series. Dude scored from second on a passed ball...who doesn't love that stuff?),

If I remember correctly, that was Ellsbury's first major league game. Granted that Crisp, Lugo, etc probably woulda scored from 2nd there too on the wild ricochet the ball took, but it was still damn exciting. He was also pretty stellar defensively - there were a few plays I saw him make up against the wall which were less than pretty and also less than successful, but as far as covering ground and making diving grabs he's top notch.

[MDXS 0]

Im not saying that I dont think Lester and Ellsbury are good prospects I just think they are overrated like alot of past and present Yankee/Red Sox prospects. I actually think you have Ellsburys future basically spot on with the 300/360/420 and 40 steals but Id definitely take the under on 15 homers.

That's fair. Sox fans around here are really carried away. Heh....last night my mother came to me an asked, "What's with this joke of a travesty including Ellsbury.""He's the best pitcher in baseball.""But isn't he supposed to be awesome""He won't be better than the best pitcher in baseball."Etc...I don't think 15's out of reach. Maybe not next year, but he did show some decent pop in limited time. I saw a quote of his in September saying something to the effect that he just started using his legs while hitting...which is a bit surprising and if true would predict a surge in power. Might be tough to get that many in Fenway though. Of course, even if 15 is too high, that's still a great line for a centerfielder.

[timwakefield 68]

Ellsbury reminds me an awful lot of Johnny Damon - they're both left-handed slap hitters with somewhat sneaky power to right field, they're both quick as hell, very solid in CF, and they both throw like a girl. Oh and they both make the same awkward, futile leap at a ball over their head.edit:

I think he'll be a Johnny Damon+ kind of player.

You win again .

[aadams_22 3]

if Ellsbury grows the Jesus beard and hair then you guys might be onto something

[Tactical Bear 3]

Hey Sox fans...I was just thinking about how awesome the Sox are going to be next year if they pick up Santana, and how scary the Tigers lineup will be if the Cabrera trade goes through.GG parity.Should be interesting to see which team of NY, BOS, DET, and CLE misses the playoffs. We could have a 95 win team left in the cold. I have a feeling Boston will win 1,000,000+ games next year, so basically NY, DET, and CLE are fighting for 2 playoff spots. Wang

[TMoneyBags 0]

I don't get what is with people saying Melky isn't any good. Is he the caliber player that Ellsbury is? No, but he's been above average at CF and is certainly better than Crisp can be. As a Twins fan, I don't like the Red Sox offer much. They went for quantity over quality which is exactly what I didn't want. Lester has the potential to be a 3, maybe a 2 but I doubt it. Crisp is nothing short of average. Masterson is going to be a RP. Lowrie is pretty much the only part of the trade that I like, and the scouts say that he won't be able to play SS at the major league level. I say, keep your players, I'll take the ace potential and above average CF.

[MDXS 0]

I don't get what is with people saying Melky isn't any good. Is he the caliber player that Ellsbury is? No, but he's been above average at CF and is certainly better than Crisp can be. As a Twins fan, I don't like the Red Sox offer much. They went for quantity over quality which is exactly what I didn't want. Lester has the potential to be a 3, maybe a 2 but I doubt it. Crisp is nothing short of average. Masterson is going to be a RP. Lowrie is pretty much the only part of the trade that I like, and the scouts say that he won't be able to play SS at the major league level. I say, keep your players, I'll take the ace potential and above average CF.

Certainly better than Crisp? I don't see it. They had similar batting lines and Crisp is much better than Cabrera defensively and on the basepaths. I've heard almost nothing but bad things about Cabrera's defense and he certainly hasn't shown me anything when I've seen him. Clay Davenport's metrics appear to be overrating him significantly (though I could be wrong on this). The big thing Cabrera has over Crisp is age (and by extension, salary). So he could develop into something more and since he is so young, is bound to get better by default. My gut feeling is that he won't improve to Crisp's level.I can't back this up with anything, but I get the feeling that Crisp would benefit from leaving Boston. I'm not sure if it was that thumb injury, or if his two seasons in Cleveland were flukes, or if he's just declined early, but he seems like a different (and worse) hitter than he was prior to being in Boston...it could just be psychological. If he hits like he used to, he's an All-Star caliber player.As for not liking the deal, I can totally see that. There is upside there, but I think if the positions were reversed, I may be more inclined to take the Hughes-type player who appears closer to his substantially higher upside.Lowrie's was able to change some minds on his defense last year. I don't get the impression that he'd be a butcher out there. I'd like to see him in Boston, but he's blocked on all fronts. Not sure what's going to happen there.Anyway, this is all moot. It seems that despite what Will Carroll has to say, it isn't happening. Which I'm fine with.

[TMoneyBags 0]

I should have been more specific. I meant certainly better going forward, not for '08 or even '09. There is one thing for sure. I like Boston's trade offer over not trading Santana.

[MDXS 0]

I should have been more specific. I meant certainly better going forward, not for '08 or even '09. There is one thing for sure. I like Boston's trade offer over not trading Santana.

Gotcha.So what's the general feeling in Minnesota? Do people want to keep him, trade him for Hughes? What's going on over there?

[TMoneyBags 0]

Well, all fans hate to see him go, but almost all understand the economics of the game and understand why we can't resign him. But most wish it would happen sooner than later since we're sick of getting poor articles like this. I tend to believe that anti-Yankee sentiment is still strong as many hope we don't trade him to the Yankees. Which I don't get since if he goes to Boston, no other team in the AL will be able to compete for at least 3 years.

[timwakefield 68]

poor articles like this.

LOL

[Swift_Psycho 1]

LOL

QFT