Sicko By Michael Moore

[Flushgarden 0]

I loathe Michael Moore, but I just watched his latest film because both my wife and I work in the health care industry. I must say it made me think more than I anticipated. I'm not saying it made me change any of my political views, but it made me reexamine them, which is something we all should do from time to time. It is true that the health care system in the United States in its current form is not ideal. It is also true that you won’t find one hint of what the possible downsides to socialized healthcare (or socialized anything) are anywhere in Moore's presentation. My whole life I've been a Libertarian at heart, and one film by Michael Moore isn't going to change that. I truly believe in individual responsibility. With that said, what struck me most in the film was what he portrayed as the typical European lifestyle (at least in England and France). This film isn't just about healthcare. It’s about socialism and the role of government. I think it all boils down to what you want out of your life. Do you want to live fairly comfortably...on a plateau, where it's not likely that you are going to be able to achieve a higher status or any level of luxury that is much above average, no matter how hard you work? Or do you want to be able to dream, and have a real chance of achieving those dreams if you work for them? There are so many other factors to consider when it comes to nationalized healthcare in the USA. Things like the advancement of medicine. In a free, money driven market, I think advancements in medicine and medical technology will happen much faster than in a system where the financial reward for the smartest people putting their time and effort into innovation is not really there. Besides that, there are many other things to think about that I won’t get into yet. Most opinions are based on fear. A lot of people in the US fear government controlled medicine. We fear long waits in emergency rooms. We fear not being able to get an appointment to see a doctor, or at least the same doctor. We fear shortages of medical equipment. We fear getting lost in red tape and cold, impersonal government agencies. We fear smart people who would have otherwise been doctors and scientists choosing other industries. We fear having a large portion of our paycheck being forcibly taken by the government to pay for the medical care of people who don't want to work. On the other hand, people in countries that have socialized medicine have a lot of fear of a free market system. They fear being turned away at emergency rooms. They fear corrupt doctors and corrupt corporations who don't care about anything but the bottom line. They fear being responsible for themselves. So what is better?

[SuperJon 175]

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...19&hl=sicko

[silkyjonson 1]

I loathe Michael Moore, but I just watched his latest film because both my wife and I work in the health care industry. I must say it made me think more than I anticipated. I'm not saying it made me change any of my political views, but it made me reexamine them, which is something we all should do from time to time. It is true that the health care system in the United States in its current form is not ideal. It is also true that you won’t find one hint of what the possible downsides to socialized healthcare (or socialized anything) are anywhere in Moore's presentation. My whole life I've been a Libertarian at heart and, and one film by Michael Moore isn't going to change that. I truly believe in individual responsibility. With that said, what struck me most in the film was what he portrayed as the typical European lifestyle (at least in England and France). This film isn't just about healthcare. It’s about socialism and the role of government. I think it all boils down to what you want out of your life. Do you want to live fairly comfortably...on a plateau, where it's not likely that you are going to be able to achieve a higher status or any level of luxury that is much above average, no matter how hard you work? Or do you want to be able to dream, and have a real chance of achieving those dreams if you work for them? There are so many other factors to consider when it comes to nationalized healthcare in the USA. Things like the advancement of medicine. In a free, money driven market, I think advancements in medicine and medical technology will happen much faster than in a system where the financial reward for the smartest people putting their time and effort into innovation is not really there. Besides that, there are many other things to think about that I won’t get into yet. Most opinions are based on fear. A lot of people in the US fear government controlled medicine. We fear long waits in emergency rooms. We fear not being able to get an appointment to see a doctor, or at least the same doctor. We fear shortages of medical equipment. We fear getting lost in red tape and cold, impersonal government agencies. We fear smart people who would have otherwise been doctors and scientists choosing other industries. We fear having a large portion of our paycheck being forcibly taken by the government to pay for the medical care of people who don't want to work. On the other hand, people in countries that have socialized medicine have a lot of fear of a free market system. They fear being turned away at emergency rooms. They fear corrupt doctors and corrupt corporations who don't care about anything but the bottom line. They fear being responsible for themselves. So what is better?

How come there is no mention of people fearing seeing children or other human beings dieing because they cannot afford health care.

[Flushgarden 0]

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...19&hl=sicko

Didn't see the thread from June. lol I even searched. People used the word "sick" so often on this board it got lost. Also that thread is in the Entertainment forum where it should not be. This isn't a movie its a documentary. The discussion isn't about how entertaining it was, the discussion is political and should be in general. Whoever moved it there didn't think about it too much.

[Flushgarden 0]

How come there is no mention of people fearing seeing children or other human beings dieing because they cannot afford health care.

That is a legitimate concern. Worthy of discussion.

[sandwedge 30]

edit: nevermind.

[scram 1]

A pay-to-play health care system is a very simple, common-sense form of national genetic hygiene.Think this fucker in my sigline pays for his own health care? I know I don't want to, nor could I care any less about his "health" or "wellness".

[Miguel McHarris 0]

Ad nauseam. The kids need to be taken care of, it's the adults I don't give a shit about. Ya know, personal responsibility and all that.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Ad nauseam. The kids need to be taken care of, it's the adults I don't give a shit about. Ya know, personal responsibility and all that.

[Miguel McHarris 0]

I hate doing the "lol", but lol.

[SuperJon 175]

Also that thread is in the Entertainment forum where it should not be. This isn't a movie its a documentary. The discussion isn't about how entertaining it was, the discussion is political and should be in general. Whoever moved it there didn't think about it too much.

I'm in a good mood today, so I won't be too harsh. Here's what you're going to do:1. Look up the word "documentary" in the dictionary.2. Come back to this thread and read your post over.3. Look at the definition again.4. Realize how wrong you are.5. Ask yourself, "WWTBD?" 6. Do the opposite.Thanks

[hblask 1]

How come there is no mention of people fearing seeing children or other human beings dieing because they cannot afford health care.

Socialism has killed more people than organized religion or any other social ill, AINEC. In the US, people do not die from lack of healthcare. Some people die of stupidity regarding their healthcare options, but destroying the system for everyone else doesn't solve that.

[vbnautilus 48]

I'm in a good mood today, so I won't be too harsh. Here's what you're going to do:1. Look up the word "documentary" in the dictionary.2. Come back to this thread and read your post over.3. Look at the definition again.4. Realize how wrong you are.5. Ask yourself, "WWTBD?" 6. Do the opposite.Thanks

Michael Moore does not make documentaries, he makes propaganda films.

[Governator 54]

I'll bring the rap graphs back in a seperate thread in OT.EDIT: Nevermind, those posts are gone for good... Sorry.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I'll bring the rap graphs back in a seperate thread in OT.EDIT: Nevermind, those posts are gone for good... Sorry.

NO!!!! *tears* overmoderation at it's finest! lol

[Balloon guy 158]

Random story picked of the interweb:

Highlight:People who live in poverty-stricken regions of northern England are twice as likely to die of cancer as those who live in the much more affluent southern end of the nation, a new report says. Experts note that the higher survival rate for wealthy people is a direct result of the cancer being caught earlier, on average, for the rich. Many national health officials say this situation is unacceptable. Original source:http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/feb2005/canc-f12.shtml Summary: A report from the all-party Public Accounts Committee, Tackling cancer in England: saving more lives, shows that survival rates from cancer in England are well below the best in Europe, especially for people living in the most deprived areas.Cancer is the country's biggest killer, accounting for a quarter of all deaths.There is a 'North-South' contrast in mortality rates suggestive of inequality between affluent and poorer areas, although the degree varies between individual cancers," it notes.Factors contributing to this are lack of patient awareness of possible symptoms and delays in onward referrals from general practitioners (GPs) for treatment and in diagnostic tests being carried through.Research has yet to be published about why patients with symptoms delay consulting their GPs.Crucially, the report notes, patients referred as "urgent" by GPs are usually seen by specialists within two weeks, but the one third or more not deemed as priority cases can take several months to be seen.The increase of incidences are mainly due to a growing aging population, but despite the fall in lung cancer, smoking remains the largest single factor influencing the overall level of cancer incidence and mortality.The report makes clear that more skilled staff will have to be recruited to make this possible.Similarly, whilst surgery remains the main curative treatment for a large majority of cancer patients, research shows that the best results come when surgery is carried out by specialist surgeons."For the most prevalent cancers, such as breast cancer, specialisation in surgery is becoming the norm," it states.There are also insufficient specialist surgical resources to increase surgery for lung cancer to desirable levels."It is also noted that many lives are being put at risk because radiotherapy waiting times in many parts of the country are too long to conform with clinical guidelines on the maximum acceptable delay before the start of treatment.

Basically England, a socialized medicine country, admits, the rich are healthier than the poor. Even with free healthcare.There are problems with waiting lines resulting in people's diseases getting past the curable stage.There is a problem with getting the doctors to become specialist.In another article:

According to an article published in the European Journal of Cancer, rectal cancer survival rates vary by country. While the overall five-year survival rate for rectal cancer in America is 59%, it's 42% in Europe

Private pay for service healthcare > socialized healthcare.Some random quotes/thoughts;The belief that the government should be there to prevent anything bad from happening to you is the first step towards slavery.Why do we want the same people that run the VA to run all our healthare?If Hillary really cared about the health of our country she would have had Bill neutered.Michael Moore wants free healthcare to pay for the consequenses of his poor eating habits and lack of exercise.If your country has socialized medicine and you're happy with it, then you are probably healthy.The more the government has gotten involved in healthcare, the higher the cost and the lower the quality.

[Vandees 0]

Government = InefficientPrivate industry = Efficient, Competitive, and Price ControllingInsurance Companies = DevilKids sick = Potentially my problem, don't mind taking some of that cost.Emergency care to PREVENT DEATH/COMMUNICABLE DISEASE= OK, I'll eat some of that too.Yodas (0ld people), fat pigs, and smoking dirtbags with cancer = Not my problem, they're on their own. Maybe if they didn't spend all their money on $4 packs of smokes, $5 value meals, and $15 pizzas, or saved for their retirement, they could afford health care. I dont expect anyone to take care of me, and any other decent American shouldn't either.

[hblask 1]

Random story picked of the interweb:Basically England, a socialized medicine country, admits, the rich are healthier than the poor. Even with free healthcare.There are problems with waiting lines resulting in people's diseases getting past the curable stage.There is a problem with getting the doctors to become specialist.

I had a discussion similar to this with my mother-in-law this weekend because she was threatening to vote for Hillary. I was explaining that good intentions don't count for anything when the result every time is a worse problem than the original problem. She said "well, if you go by that argument, we shouldn't have Social Security."Ding ding ding, we have a winner!!!!

[whatgreatis 0]

Socialism has killed more people than organized religion or any other social ill, AINEC.

I don't know how you can make that claim. Seriously, I know history really well, please tell me how socialism has killed more people than organized religion?

[hblask 1]

I don't know how you can make that claim. Seriously, I know history really well, please tell me how socialism has killed more people than organized religion?

The Straight Dope

[perdoo 0]

lmao ..... if michael moore is a documentary filmmaker... i'm leading my beer league hockey team to Lord Stanley so we can hoist it in victoryi used to think his first movies were ok.... but not until "columbine" did i really notice what a self serving bastard he isi was sitting at a friend's house in downtown TO watching columbine... and damned if the very building i'm sitting in (with central air and a $1500/mo market value rent) appears on the screen... and theres butterball, telling us that this is considered a "ghetto" area.... guess he didnt have directions to Jane n Finch or Flemingdon Park.... so my rather affluent friend and i had a great laugh and decided to "look ghetto" by turning our hats sidewayscan i get a yo?my point is that Mr Moore elevates himself above his story... injects his views and has a great knack for making his opposing viewpoint subjects look very sillyDocumentaries never have names above the title of the movieDocumentary filmmakers do everything they can to stay objective, neutral, and invisibleas for the debates on which system is better... it could go on ad nauseumi'm sitting here with a bad knee waiting for an mri.. yeah it's free.... but it's a six month wait (and a lacrosse and hockey season down the tubes)mind you its nice to not need $40 k to walk into an emergency room here... just bring a few books and some crossword puzzles.. pack a picnic basket and im good for my 8 hr wait at the ER

[whatgreatis 0]

The Straight Dope

Yeah, I read it but so what? There are a couple communist regimes up there but also plenty of non-communist regimes. Henry, I'm not sure you know how many people have died in the name of religion. I could make a huge list but I'll save myself some time and name some major events.Slaughter of the Armenians (also done for political gain but it can be argued that it was also because they were a Christan minority)Mass sacrificing rituals of the Mayans/Incas. I forgot which but one of those two is far less brutal than the other but I know they both practiced it.30 years war. Protestants vs. Catholics and it pretty much destroyed Germany for a few decades. Not to mention all the other European countries that got involved.The Crusades. We both know what those are.The Holocaust, lets kill some Jews because they are Jews?The Spanish conquering the new world. "Become Catholic or die" was more or less their motto.The Spanish driving out the Jews in 1492.The Moor War. Muslim Moors vs. Spanish Catholics.You could make an argument about the 100 years war being fought over religious values as well as political maneuvering. Certainly the Aviagn Papacy near the beginning of it showed how much religion had to influence the wars between France and England.Thats enough for now. Also let me make it clear that Socialism did not kill those people, their oppressive governments did. The way you put it, you made it sound like the Socialist system killed millions of people.

[coesillian 0]

There are so many other factors to consider when it comes to nationalized healthcare in the USA. Things like the advancement of medicine. In a free, money driven market, I think advancements in medicine and medical technology will happen much faster than in a system where the financial reward for the smartest people putting their time and effort into innovation is not really there. Besides that, there are many other things to think about that I won’t get into yet.

advancements in the US are driven by pharmaceutical companies looking to make money, their primary concern is profit rather than finding cures. that IMO is a huge downfall of the American system.

[digitalmonkey 929]

lmao ..... if michael moore is a documentary filmmaker... i'm leading my beer league hockey team to Lord Stanley so we can hoist it in victoryi used to think his first movies were ok.... but not until "columbine" did i really notice what a self serving bastard he isi was sitting at a friend's house in downtown TO watching columbine... and damned if the very building i'm sitting in (with central air and a $1500/mo market value rent) appears on the screen... and theres butterball, telling us that this is considered a "ghetto" area.... guess he didnt have directions to Jane n Finch or Flemingdon Park.... so my rather affluent friend and i had a great laugh and decided to "look ghetto" by turning our hats sidewayscan i get a yo?my point is that Mr Moore elevates himself above his story... injects his views and has a great knack for making his opposing viewpoint subjects look very sillyDocumentaries never have names above the title of the movieDocumentary filmmakers do everything they can to stay objective, neutral, and invisibleas for the debates on which system is better... it could go on ad nauseumi'm sitting here with a bad knee waiting for an mri.. yeah it's free.... but it's a six month wait (and a lacrosse and hockey season down the tubes)mind you its nice to not need $40 k to walk into an emergency room here... just bring a few books and some crossword puzzles.. pack a picnic basket and im good for my 8 hr wait at the ER

I found a Wu-Tang Clan CD in the R&B section.

[hblask 1]

Thats enough for now. Also let me make it clear that Socialism did not kill those people, their oppressive governments did. The way you put it, you made it sound like the Socialist system killed millions of people.

The total number killed by socialism/communism is approximately 200 million. All the religious things you listed do not even come close to that.The distinction between "socialism" and "socialist governments" is an interesting and humorous attempt to save face.