Playing Fast And Loose With Hookers?

[wildspoke 2]

About 20 from the money. I've been playing TAG. Villain*BB is tag as well. Villain #2 is LAG.My first question is should I just flat and play in position or consider a fold?I'm including the entire hand history because I think even if I flatted, I'm going broke. I think he'd check raise me on the flop or maybe move in. Any insight is greatly appreciatedThanksJoeFull Tilt Poker Game #18279918799: $10 + $1 Knockout (138100479), Table 12 - 150/300 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:52:08 ET - 2010/02/08Seat 2: Wildspoke (15,599)Seat 3: cusecrusher (10,300)Seat 4: Jester5299 (13,560)Seat 5: MTMinTX (8,470)Seat 6: toobadedd (17,508)Seat 7: trumpel (5,792)Seat 8: doy78 (4,197)Seat 9: slickgent (24,139)Wildspoke antes 25cusecrusher antes 25Jester5299 antes 25MTMinTX antes 25toobadedd antes 25trumpel antes 25doy78 antes 25slickgent antes 25MTMinTX posts the small blind of 150toobadedd posts the big blind of 300The button is in seat #4*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Wildspoke [Js Jc]trumpel foldsdoy78 has 15 seconds left to actdoy78 has timed outdoy78 foldsdoy78 is sitting outslickgent raises to 600Wildspoke calls 600cusecrusher foldsJester5299 foldsMTMinTX foldstoobadedd raises to 2,700slickgent calls 2,100Wildspoke has 15 seconds left to actWildspoke raises to 15,574, and is all intoobadedd calls 12,874slickgent foldsWildspoke shows [Js Jc]toobadedd shows [Kd Kh]*** FLOP *** [8c 6c Tc]*** TURN *** [8c 6c Tc] [9s]*** RIVER *** [8c 6c Tc 9s] [8h]Wildspoke shows two pair, Jacks and Eightstoobadedd shows two pair, Kings and Eightstoobadedd wins the pot (34,198) with two pair, Kings and EightsWildspoke: gg*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 34,198 | Rake 0Board: [8c 6c Tc 9s 8h]Seat 2: Wildspoke showed [Js Jc] and lost with two pair, Jacks and EightsSeat 3: cusecrusher folded before the FlopSeat 4: Jester5299 (button) folded before the FlopSeat 5: MTMinTX (small blind) folded before the FlopSeat 6: toobadedd (big blind) showed [Kd Kh] and won (34,198) with two pair, Kings and EightsSeat 7: trumpel folded before the FlopSeat 8: doy78 folded before the FlopSeat 9: slickgent folded before the Flop

[Chet Chetterson 0]

Why are you shoving 50 BB's with Jacks when you are twenty from the bubble? Even not at the bubble this is still a horrible play imo. I'm more likely to see a fold out of this than a ship. If you flat the 3-bet you have position and may even be able to get away from only losing the 3k.

[wildspoke 2]

Agreed. Thank you for confirming my absolute stupidity.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Please convert your hands.I actually think this is a fold to the squeeze, you don't have the odds to set mine, which is what you're doing. But calling >>>> 4bet shoving.Fold >>>> Call >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shove

[cdipierr 0]

Converted for OP:Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 11 Tournament, 150/300 Blinds 25 Ante (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comHero (MP2) (t15599)CO (t10300)Button (t13560)SB (t8470)BB (t17508)UTG (t5792)UTG+1 (t4197)MP1 (t24139)Hero's M: 24.00Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J , J 2 folds, MP1 bets t600, Hero calls t600, 3 folds, BB raises to t2700, MP1 calls t2100, Hero raises to t15574 (All-In), BB calls t12874, 1 foldFlop: (t34198) 8 , 6 , 10 (2 players, 1 all-in)Turn: (t34198) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)River: (t34198) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)Total pot: t34198

[outsider13 0]

A+ for thread title though!!

[Mercury69 3]

If you flat, you're shoving the low flop anyway, right? So, with a couple of limps, a big raise and a call in front of you, I'm thinking it's definitely shove or fold. Having seen the results, well, I guess a fold would have been the best play, but look at it this way: With the original limper calling the 4x raise, do you really think JJ will hold up against what will likely be a big pair vs two high cards?Say you're up against AK and QQ...not only do you HAVE to hit, you also must dodge. Sure, Slickgent folded, but for all you know, he's limping something huge hoping to get raised and you don't know if he's going to fold to whatever play you or the other guy are going to make. Consider yourself squeezed and fold it out, even though it's painful.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Please convert your hands.I actually think this is a fold to the squeeze, you don't have the odds to set mine, which is what you're doing. But calling >>>> 4bet shoving.Fold >>>> Call >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shove

Yeah, this was epic-spew.

[TrueAce13 18]

A+ for thread title though!!

Soooooo this...but yea this is a fold...i've spewed like this before tho!

[Shark527 0]

Does he play it any differntly if he has QQ?

[rrumsey 0]

Please convert your hands.I actually think this is a fold to the squeeze, you don't have the odds to set mine, which is what you're doing. But calling >>>> 4bet shoving.Fold >>>> Call >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shove

uhm yah serious please convert guys. and yah, JJ this deep in a $10 im not shipping pre. i mean at best we are racing AKs,.. at best

[blakheart 3]

If the first raiser is LAG and playing too many hands isn't the standard play to raise the first time it gets to us? I think it plays like this:Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J icon_suit_spade.gif, J icon_suit_club.gif2 folds, MP1 bets t600, Hero raises t2000 3 folds, BB raises to t6000 MP1 calls t6000 Hero foldsIf we raise the initial raiser the big blinds hand is more defined. By limping behind it is harder to determine if the big blind is squeezing with any 2 or has a legit hand. Our raise forces the big blind to tip his hand. Even if he calls we will suspect that he has a big hand. And if he raises we can easily dump of jacks pre.

[Mercury69 3]

I like raising the original limper with JJ, but you're in the same shitboat when the flop hits all low.

[wildspoke 2]

If the first raiser is LAG and playing too many hands isn't the standard play to raise the first time it gets to us? I think it plays like this:Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J icon_suit_spade.gif, J icon_suit_club.gif2 folds, MP1 bets t600, Hero raises t2000 3 folds, BB raises to t6000 MP1 calls t6000 Hero foldsIf we raise the initial raiser the big blinds hand is more defined. By limping behind it is harder to determine if the big blind is squeezing with any 2 or has a legit hand. Our raise forces the big blind to tip his hand. Even if he calls we will suspect that he has a big hand. And if he raises we can easily dump of jacks pre.

I fully understand that I played this exceptionally poorly and I appreciate all the responses. The funny thing is I am not a PF pusher. It was way out of character. This is what I was thinking. When the LAG in EP raised it up, I wanted to play the jacks in position. That is why I flat called the EP min raise. I felt if I re-raised and it folded back to the initial raiser he could very well have moved all-in putting me to a decision I did not want to make. When the small blind re-raised, I'll admit I did not put him on a huge hand and in retrospect this was my most egregious error. After the the EP called I thought that this gave me an opportunity to pick up a lot of dead money. That is why I moved in. I was trying to squeeze the SB. I thought that he would fold considering how loose the EP had been. I thought unless he had a Monster AA, KK or QQ he was goinv to fold because he was afraid that the EP would also call putting his tournament life at risk. SwolyswoND I understand what you're saying but you think that I should have folded when the SB re-raised? Do I really want to chuck jacks there without seeing a flop? I think I should have flatted and might have gone broke if it was checked to me because of the flop. (Just curious as to your POV)Thanks again for any and all opinions. And thanks for calling out the title. Even though I was mad at my play, it's still only a game and we have to keep it light around here.Also, in the future I will convert my hands. Thanks again,Joe

[SwolyswoND 1]

SwolyswoND I understand what you're saying but you think that I should have folded when the SB re-raised? Do I really want to chuck jacks there without seeing a flop? I think I should have flatted and might have gone broke if it was checked to me because of the flop. (Just curious as to your POV)

Absolutely. When the SB 3bets there, its like almost always QQ+. Maybe a small % AK. Here's the problem though. If it is QQ+, you don't have anywhere near the implied odds necessary to flat and hope to see a J on the flop. If you flat and the board is all unders, you are paying off his QQ+ anyway so the RIO sucks too.You might say, well what if he has AK and I flat and he shoves a low board? It's possible, but the few times it will happen (he wont always shove AK, even if that is what he had pre, since your hand is faceup as 99-QQ) doesn't come close to outweighing the times he has QQ+ and stacks you.

I thought unless he had a Monster AA, KK or QQ he was goinv to fold because he was afraid that the EP would also call putting his tournament life at risk.

The problem with that is, he always has those hands in this spot.

[PrtyPSux 0]

I read this thread title on the main page and I was like "I'm coming back to fcp to drop some hooker knowledge." I'm disappointed.

[PrtyPSux 0]

You played it fine btw

[wildspoke 2]

I read this thread title on the main page and I was like "I'm coming back to fcp to drop some hooker knowledge." I'm disappointed.

You played it fine btw

JC,My apologies for not having a more salacious tale on which to comment on. Usually when I'm in Vegas and if I am approached by a lady of the evening and they say something like $300 for a good time? I'm like, 'save your money, I have a girlfriend.'Hoes aside your second post is contrary to what everyone else is saying. Care to elaborate?thanksJoe

[PrtyPSux 0]

JC,My apologies for not having a more salacious tale on which to comment on. Usually when I'm in Vegas and if I am approached by a lady of the evening and they say something like $300 for a good time? I'm like, 'save your money, I have a girlfriend.'Hoes aside your second post is contrary to what everyone else is saying. Care to elaborate?thanksJoe

Forgot I posted this.. Just look at it this way: If you **** this hand up as badly as possible..you still suck out a decent amount of time. He has AK and AQ too often, and it's a low stakes mtt. I mean, you have JJ, it'll show profit. I guess my point is that you shouldn't be wasting your time debating on how to play huge pairs and AK. IMO, your time would be much better spent talking about how you could have played that J6s that you decided to fold pre.

[Mercury69 3]

Nice update on the blog, JC ;-)