Comment On This Raise

[simo_8ball 0]

I offended 'Hero' by explaining quite fully where he went wrong. He gave me the whole 'that's your opinion, I disagree' argument. He claimed the raise was for information. Comments? With explanation, please. I need more support.UTG-------67.93UTG+1----75.10MP1-------282.74HERO-----116.80MP3-------171.40CO+1-----160.54CO--------181.00BTN-------256.50SB--------173.65BB--------102.35CO+1 posts $2SB posts $1BB posts $2UTG calls $2, UTG+1 calls $2, MP1 calls $2, HERO raises to $5...EDIT: HERO has QcJc

[meservery 0]

what kind of information?I would imagine the information that HERO would get here, is that all the players who already limped will simply call 3 more dollars. I'm sure both the blinds called as well.Bad raise, especially if he has a big pair.

[trystero 0]

He's giving almost any two cards the proper odds to call. So I guess the information he'll gain is that his opponents are playing with two hole cards and not just one.

[Vyszion 0]

He's giving almost any two cards the proper odds to call. So I guess the information he'll gain is that his opponents are playing with two hole cards and not just one.

just incase they got dealt the "how to play blackjack" card...but yea, he's going to get called.

[David_Nicoson 1]

I offended 'Hero' by explaining quite fully where he went wrong. He gave me the whole 'that's your opinion, I disagree' argument. He claimed the raise was for information. Comments? With explanation, please. I need more support.UTG-------67.93UTG+1----75.10MP1-------282.74HERO-----116.80MP3-------171.40CO+1-----160.54CO--------181.00BTN-------256.50SB--------173.65BB--------102.35CO+1 posts $2SB posts $1BB posts $2UTG calls $2, UTG+1 calls $2, MP1 calls $2, HERO raises to $5...

It's not enough to just get the information. We have to be in a situation that the information improves our expectation.If the hero has something like ATo, he may be able to keep himself out of trouble if a bigger ace or AA limped from EP. I still don't make that play, but I think an argument can be made for it in isolation. It does imply that the hero has to just bump it with a huge hand sometimes. If the hero has a hand that has a lot of potential to break a big hand (e.g., a suited connector or one-gapper, a suited ace, or a medium pair), he raised himself out of a huge opportunity. I'd be kicking myself if I raised small with 99 only to have UTG limp-raise. Similarly, if I discover that 99 is the current best hand, I give smaller pairs excellent odds to break me. If the flop comes all unders to a 9, we're either winning a little pot or losing a big one.With a hand like this, your information is usually:

• Wow, I really screwed up by reopening the betting.
• My hand is likely the best now, but the whole field is seeing the flop. I suspect they don't have a big pairs, but their range is very wide. We have no idea what a bad flop looks like.

In either case, the information isn't worth the cost.I think there is some merit in taking control of the hand preflop.

[No_Neck 0]

I don't mind the bet if he has a multiway hand but it really does suck. Also don't make players better, it is EV-

[simo_8ball 0]

Oops, I forot to post his hand. He had QcJc.

[Naismith 0]

I do this sometimes to build a pot preflop when I'm playing with players that I know will contest for a bigger pot regardless of how strong they are. Essentially, playing for implied odds if I hit a big flop.I don't do it for information or if I expect anyone to fold. No one is folding for a three dollar raise here, so you really can't narrow down a range for the limpers. It is a worthless play in that regard.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Oops, I forot to post his hand. He had QcJc.

Does this person play a lot of limit? It would make sense in that context, when a large pot encourages people with lesser draws (e.g., bottom pair) to call flop and turn bets. And there's no threat of being raised out of the hand preflop.

[simo_8ball 0]

Does this person play a lot of limit? It would make sense in that context, when a large pot encourages people with lesser draws (e.g., bottom pair) to call flop and turn bets. And there's no threat of being raised out of the hand preflop.

No, he plays NLHE exclusively. His original post:

reasons1) utg is in the pot, he has limped - I want to see what he does with a raise to narrow his poss starting hands down.2) I like to raise if I am entering a pot. The raise is very small as you can see. I didn't raise to drive anyone out of the pot I raised for info.

My (possibly too honest) reply:

Limping would be the standard play, but I have no problem raising.Your raise is horrendous, tbh. Make it $15 to go at least. Maybe $20.As for your reasons:1) UTG is going to call with almost all of his hands, thus not giving you ANY information. Everyone else is going to call as well, although someone may spy an opportunity to move allin with a hand like 99 and stop you from seeing a flop. All you do is bloat the pot with a hand where you can get trapped by hitting a weak top pair.2) Ludicrous. Sorry, but that is one of the craziest things I have read in a long time. If you are OPENING the pot, you should always raise, but having a strict raise or fold mentality in every pot is horrendous and extremely exploitable. Do you reraise UTG raises with 44?

His reply:

my raise IS for info. I can see your reasoning that it "dosent give me any info" but IMO it does.UTG has limped, if I raise, and IF he has AA or KK, AND because we have a lot of players in the pot what will he do? He will make a very big re raise - that is the info I am looking for. Why would I want to raise to $15 with a hand like KJc. But point taken.I like to raise when I am entering a pot with a variety of hands. I dont however have a "strict" raise or fold mentality. I said I LIKE to raise, I never said I always raise or fold !

Do you realise how rarely UTG actually does limp with AA/KK? Also, by allowing him to reraise you lose $5 rather than $2, and you also lose the opportunity to outdraw him for cheap.You aren't going to be playing a big pot on a flop of Q72, but if the flop comes down QJ7/JJX/QQX you can win a HUGE pot. You can also flop a primary draw and win a huge pot if you hit. By raising to $5 you likely end up seeing a 5/6 way pot of ~$30 with only $111 left in your stack. You massively reduce your implied odds by making that raise.

How else can I explain it?

[nomad_monad 0]

How else can I explain it?

I would have just stopped there and asked, "So, where do you play, and what's your screen name?"

[trystero 0]

It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. - Jonathan Swift

[simo_8ball 0]

I would have just stopped there and asked, "So, where do you play, and what's your screen name?"

I know his screennames and what sites he plays at. He was actually playing $10/$20 NL a couple of weeks ago and made a decent score. Go figure.

[Spence 0]

I don't mind the raise if its used to confound the opponent(s).Mixing up play isn't the worst thing you can do, if he does this everytime, thats different.

[Zach6668 513]

I've said it a million times.Raising for "info" and for nothing else, is a significant leak.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

I've said it a million times.Raising for "info" and for nothing else, is a significant leak.

I disagree to an extent. If I've got 4 limpers infront of me and I look down at TT should I limp? If the board comes all under cards, do I get stacked by the JJ who limped infront of me..?

[Zach6668 513]

I disagree to an extent. If I've got 4 limpers infront of me and I look down at TT should I limp? If the board comes all under cards, do I get stacked by the JJ who limped infront of me..?

Ok, I'll give you that, but meh, what is raising going to accomplish there? You tihnk he's going to LRR to give away his hand? He'll almost always call. I call raises with all sorts of crap, and I don't think his limp/call should set off any alarms. I'd rather keep the pot small there with TT, esp postflop, since we'll have position on this potential JJ.Furthermore, my sentiment is definitely coming from more of a limit mindset, but I still think it really applies to NL.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Ok, I'll give you that, but meh, what is raising going to accomplish there? You tihnk he's going to LRR to give away his hand? He'll almost always call. I call raises with all sorts of crap, and I don't think his limp/call should set off any alarms. I'd rather keep the pot small there with TT, esp postflop, since we'll have position on this potential JJ.Furthermore, my sentiment is definitely coming from more of a limit mindset, but I still think it really applies to NL.

A couple things..-In a standard 1/2 NL game, 4 limps to you in MP/COish, you raise to 15 and get two callers--you don't think they've defined their hands at all? Obviously stack sizes are important, but, with my TT I have a much better understanding of their likely holdings..so it works for both information and 'thinning the field'.-If he does limp/re-raise, well, then I could safely lay it, or, if stacks are deep enough, call for set value. -Why would you want to keep the pot small when you have position?

[Zach6668 513]

A couple things..-In a standard 1/2 NL game, 4 limps to you in MP/COish, you raise to 15 and get two callers--you don't think they've defined their hands at all? Obviously stack sizes are important, but, with my TT I have a much better understanding of their likely holdings..so it works for both information and 'thinning the field'.-If he does limp/re-raise, well, then I could safely lay it, or, if stacks are deep enough, call for set value. -Why would you want to keep the pot small when you have position?

All good points.I'm used to playin 100 NL where calls are anything, lol. But, I mean, obv if we have reasonable opponents, then sure, we've definitely narrowed their range.As far as keeping the pot small with TT, I don't like making the pot huge if we are playing just a medium pair, although I almost always raise there anyways.Actually, that's the real point here. This raise wouldn't be solely for information.It's also a value raise, which is pretty much the point of my original statement. Since we are raising for value, as well as info, it doesn't violate my theory that raising ONLY for info is a leak.There we go, lol. Cool?My mind is all over the place right now, lol.

[Spence 0]

WTF!?!?! I wasn't even in this F&*king thread and i replied to it?!1 BOLLOCKS, i call bs on this one.