Wpt Mirage Showdown **update Thread**

[looshle 6]

If a utg limp looks weak here how does an over shove preflop not look weak too? I dont play 10k buying tournies but in my little donkish tournies id read that limp as a much bigger hand then the shove here. Couldnt hoosier's shove be perceived as a satelite donk/scared kid who does not want to see a flop with a midpair or AJ etc etc? So looshle,JC in this tourney acting after hoosier what is your calling range for an utg shove here? As grinder said is a 10k buy in really that much different then an online tourney that its only a +ev call with QQ+?

I'm not calling jon without AK, AA, KK, or QQ. A "satellite donk/ scared kid" would not want to bubble so a limp doesn't look as strong as it normally would.

[FoxwoodsPro 0]

who raises 4x? umm someone who is creating deception with the whole table knowing if it gets folded around he increases his stack by more than 10 %. I think with the 15k raise it's harder to put the UTG on a narrow range of hands. Maybe instead of AA KK QQ AK AQ, someone may believe he is trying to protect 77-JJ?Maybe someone looks you up not 3-4 players, and with the pot having 38k, its a standard push in the remaining 50k of your stack. Or maybe they fold and your sitting at a lil under 75k??Or in the rare chance they fold the flop you have around 88k?If AQ calls and KK holds up you have 135k?With KK UTG I believe the overbet preflop has a lot of value in this specific instance

[cubsfan44 0]

I'm not calling jon without AK, AA, KK, or QQ. A "satellite donk/ scared kid" would not want to bubble so a limp doesn't look as strong as it normally would.

Cool thanks.

[looshle 6]

who raises 4x? umm someone who is creating deception with the whole table knowing if it gets folded around he increases his stack by more than 10 %. I think with the 15k raise it's harder to put the UTG on a narrow range of hands. Maybe instead of AA KK QQ AK AQ, someone may believe he is trying to protect 77-JJ?Maybe someone looks you up not 3-4 players, and with the pot having 38k, its a standard push in the remaining 50k of your stack. Or maybe they fold and your sitting at a lil under 75k??

Maybe you're just going on the fact that his 11k got called in so many spots? Prob. Lets raise more UTG to show the table they have even LESS fold equity? I'll help you though. You're with the shoving group but you just don't realize it.

[loxo 0]

who raises 4x? umm someone who is creating deception with the whole table knowing if it gets folded around he increases his stack by more than 10 %. I think with the 15k raise it's harder to put the UTG on a narrow range of hands. Maybe instead of AA KK QQ AK AQ, someone may believe he is trying to protect 77-JJ?Maybe someone looks you up not 3-4 players, and with the pot having 38k, its a standard push in the remaining 50k of your stack. Or maybe they fold and your sitting at a lil under 75k??With KK UTG I believe the overbet preflop has a lot of value in this specific instance

Hii, say sry, kthxby.

[cubsfan44 0]

Maybe you're just going on the fact that his 11k got called in so many spots? Prob. Lets raise more UTG to show the table they have even LESS fold equity? I'll help you though. You're with the shoving group but you just don't realize it.

its funny cause its true

[FoxwoodsPro 0]

Maybe you're just going on the fact that his 11k got called in so many spots? Prob. Lets raise more UTG to show the table they have even LESS fold equity? I'll help you though. You're with the shoving group but you just don't realize it.

Maybe someone looks you up not 3-4 players, and with the pot having 38k, its a standard push in the remaining 50k of your stack. Or maybe they fold and your sitting at a lil under 75k??Or in the rare chance they fold the flop you have around 88k?If AQ calls and KK holds up you have 135k?I'm in the increasing your stack by 10% preflop category, or building a nice pot with KK without a multi-way pot. I'm Ok with investing 20%of my chips preflop UTG with KK, with the above possibilities.Sorry loxo

[msals11 0]

Maybe someone looks you up not 3-4 players, and with the pot having 38k, its a standard push in the remaining 50k of your stack. Or maybe they fold and your sitting at a lil under 75k??Or in the rare chance they fold the flop you have around 88k?If AQ calls and KK holds up you have 135k?I'm in the increasing your stack by 10% preflop category, or building a nice pot with KK without a multi-way pot. I'm Ok with investing 20%of my chips preflop UTG with KK, with the above possibilities.Sorry loxo

anyone is OK w/ investing 20% of their stack w/ kings obvvvvvv... its just that the rest of the table will be more liable to put him on a huge hand if he invests this much of his stack UTG. an 11k raise was probably jon's standard opening raise so why not keep it standard and keep them guessing. in this instance he got 3 callers, but the majority of the time he will only get heads up or 3 ways, which will lead to more profitable results longterm

[looshle 6]

Maybe someone looks you up not 3-4 players, and with the pot having 38k, its a standard push in the remaining 50k of your stack. Or maybe they fold and your sitting at a lil under 75k??Or in the rare chance they fold the flop you have around 88k?If AQ calls and KK holds up you have 135k?I'm in the increasing your stack by 10% preflop category, or building a nice pot with KK without a multi-way pot. I'm Ok with investing 20%of my chips preflop UTG with KK, with the above possibilities.Sorry loxo

Or maybe you play the hand in the present and not realize that you'll get called in 3 or more spots? Increase it by 10% to give most of it away the next 2 hands? Pick up KK and get min value out of it? Play to make the money?Na, I'd like to double here and I'm ok getting called in a few spots. I'd l/rr it personally but whatever, I don't mind getting action on kings, maybe you do. eh

[ratwastard 0]

http://www.cardplayer.com/tv/24802amnon filippi discusses the hand in the 2nd half of this video

nice find rat, keep up the good work

[cubsfan44 0]

Maybe someone looks you up not 3-4 players, and with the pot having 38k, its a standard push in the remaining 50k of your stack. Or maybe they fold and your sitting at a lil under 75k??Or in the rare chance they fold the flop you have around 88k?If AQ calls and KK holds up you have 135k?I'm in the increasing your stack by 10% preflop category, or building a nice pot with KK without a multi-way pot. I'm Ok with investing 20%of my chips preflop UTG with KK, with the above possibilities.Sorry loxo

Call me crazy but Im ok with investing 100% of my stack preflop utg with KK. I think the arguement here is about the best way to get all our chips in the middle against a weaker holding and raising more then standard prolly aint gonna do it.

[gatortom64 1]

Damn, my computer tripped & fell into a strat post!!!! All this thinking is making my head hurt (but in a good way). Since we never saw the turn & river the debate shall be endless. Where is the rabbit cam when you need it? If I ever got that far, I have no idea what I would do. I made it past the re-buy in a 4 Queens event about 5 years ago. Went out 3 shy of the bubble. Limped w/33 in the BB. Flop was Q3Q. Checked to Men the Master, he bet 3/4 of the pot, I raise all in, he insta-called w/Q3. Bad luck & bad timing? sure, but I see no other way to play it. Here, he had the leeway to fold. Jon had how many outs to dodge? Diamonds + 8s+Ks??? 16 outs? I think it was a good laydown (not sure if I could make it).

[FoxwoodsPro 0]

pretty sick day. Standard play with the AK huge pot for a large amount of $ equity, sucks I lost the race. Here was a key hand that they didn't report:I had about 65k at 2k 4k I open to 11 utg with black Kings. Chip Reese calls, button thinks for like 2 minutes, puts out raising chips and decides to smooth call. Amnon smooth calls from the sb. So now there is around 50k in the middle and we see a 4-way flop and it comes a gross QJ9 w/2 diamonds. Amnon checks I think forever and check, this is about the worst possible flop for me besides Axx. I planned on c/r ai and gambling if one person bets and it folds around, but this is a terrible flop so I think checking is best as if I open shove this flop I'm rarely getting my $ in good (against these players) and if there is heavy action behind i can muck. So I check, Chip bets 20k, button raises to 80k of his 180k, Amnon moves in for 250k. Obvious fold now, so that was a gross hand.Anyway I get moved to a new table with 30 people left (bubble as 27 pay) and I fold 2 hands and it folds to the sb who apparently is an aggressive cash game player. He looks at his cards and says all-in (he has about 200k), blinds are 2k 4k and I have about 65k total. I look down at A8dd think for a few seconds and know he is jamming with basically any 2 as this is the bubble and I'm playing to win especially in this ultra-top heavy tourney so make the fairly easy call, he shows 10 4hh flops top 2 and I lose, gg.Bubbling 10ks is sick.oh and loldonkaments.

Tom you know you can get away from that action

[SilentButDeadly3 0]

I havent read the thread, but this is my opinion on the hand.If the flop was AJ10 I'd check, J52 I check, QxJd9d I check....with 3 people behind you in such a huge spot for your tournament life, you're making a HUGE mistake by open shipping it imo...2 pr a set a str8 or AQ aren't folding, and they're always betting the flop so you might as well c/r and get it all in that way...if there is a bet and a raise, I think you can muck most of the time unless you know the players and/or sense weakness from both.... At the very best you're up vs 12-16 outs or so. When there is a raise a reraise and an all in, I think you HAVE to fold 100% of the time, regardless. I think players like DN, JC Tran, and Nam Le check there all the time. Shipping all in might work once in a while, but it's not +EV in tourneys hardly ever imo, you're just putting your tourney life at stake with no clue about the other player's hands.

Call me stupid, but what's all that scary about that flop or are you checking to trap?I think this is one of the better strat posts in a long time and has a lot of different variables that makes this hand very unique (i.e. esentially starting with the near nuts, the bubble, etc.)

[HoosierAlum 0]

I was drinking heavily last night so couldn't respond to any posts.I think its a very interesting spot, that could be played any of 3 ways preflop. As for my image, the only players that had played with me on previous days were Shannon Shorr and David Matthews briefly on day 2. We had only been playing for an hour today, so the rest of the table didn't have much to work on.Here are the hands that I played all day so people know how many pots I was opening: 4th hand of the day Amnon opens and I move in with AK he calls with jacks and I lose the race. That cripples me to around 35k. One orbit later Amnon open limps, I ship for 30k total with 1010 and I double through Amnon who had 106. Now I have around 70k. Next hand it folds to me in the sb and the first card I see is an ace, the bb only has about 30k and I move in, he folds. After this I make a couple standard opening raises to 11k and take down the blinds, I had not limped all day though.Limping here is definitely an option, and I thought about it but I'm not all that sure I would get raised behind. The table was not playing very aggressive at all, and I had been playing decently active without ever open limping, so I thought my standard opening raise was the best way for me to double through. As for the flop play, I thought about it alot last night and I think I played it correctly. The entire hand is "close", but I don't regret how I played it. I'm the type of guy who always takes a deep look at his play and isn't afraid to admit when he misplays a hand, so I enjoy the discussion very much. I wish the results could have been different, but oh well SIGH.

[benhoug 0]

I wish the results could have been different, but oh well SIGH.

You've got about 6 weeks to make up for the results. Have a good series Hoos.

[TheWacoKidd 0]

limp pre obv

[JesseW316 0]

Ok I'm back and have reconsidered just about everything looshle, Grinder, and I were discussing. Plus we now have the most important info which obviously is FWP's input. Lol jk Hoosier's table info now is what I've been wanting.

definitely an interesting spot pre and post flop.correct way to play it pre is obviously dependent on 1) table's perception of jon and 2) jon's perception of how active everyone behind him will be if he limps/std raises/shoves. none of us can really make any judgements on that front. i trust that he made the right decision preflop (i'm assuming he hadn't been very active and had probably not moved his whole stack in preflop yet), and i agree 100% with the flop action.i also agree with grinder that a shove preflop needs to be considered due to 3rd level thinking. if you're another player at the table, you basically expect someone with jon's stack to limp with a hand as big as KK, and you'd probably never give him credit for shoving KK preflop in that spot. i think there's a good chance he'd get looked up by [77+, AJ+].

I'm almost certain that as long as there isn't a total donkey at the table (which I seriously doubt there was), this is not true. I'm positive an open shove is only getting called by QQ+ and AK. At least that's what my range would be here, unless I just had the shortest of short stacks in which case it doesn't even matter bc all of Hoos' money doesn't get in if I have a shorter stack.

I like shoving preflop more than raising to 15k. 4X? who opens for 4X utg? Who opens for 4x anywhere on the table for that matter? If i'm raising here it's 11 MAX most likely 10-10.5.

Exactly. I really think raising to 15k or really anything over 12k is the WORST play here. It can absolutely only be read as a HUGE hand and will not get action from anything but AA, KK, and maybe maybe maybe QQ. The 4x raise is worse than the open shove preflop bc at least some thinkers could figure the open shove as a scared player looking to pick up blinds with TT/JJ or maybe AQ and Hoos' might get action from AQ/AK/JJ and double up. The 4x raise isn't going to let anyone make a mistake by getting their money in bad, except maybe QQ and banking on that is just foolish.

I'm not calling jon without AK, AA, KK, or QQ. A "satellite donk/ scared kid" would not want to bubble so a limp doesn't look as strong as it normally would.

That would also be my range, possibly even eliminating AK but that would depend on how I felt at that moment, I wasn't at the table so can't say for sure. A limp definitely does not have to be a huge hand as it might be him looking to see the flop with a hand that isn't strong enough to want to raise/push but also could be nice if it hits. A scared/inexperienced bubble player would do something like that. Now, however, Hoos' has told us he hadn't open-limped all day so that would be the argument against the limp which is totally understandable.

I was drinking heavily last night so couldn't respond to any posts.I think its a very interesting spot, that could be played any of 3 ways preflop. As for my image, the only players that had played with me on previous days were Shannon Shorr and David Matthews briefly on day 2. We had only been playing for an hour today, so the rest of the table didn't have much to work on.Here are the hands that I played all day so people know how many pots I was opening: 4th hand of the day Amnon opens and I move in with AK he calls with jacks and I lose the race. That cripples me to around 35k. One orbit later Amnon open limps, I ship for 30k total with 1010 and I double through Amnon who had 106. Now I have around 70k. Next hand it folds to me in the sb and the first card I see is an ace, the bb only has about 30k and I move in, he folds. After this I make a couple standard opening raises to 11k and take down the blinds, I had not limped all day though.Limping here is definitely an option, and I thought about it but I'm not all that sure I would get raised behind. The table was not playing very aggressive at all, and I had been playing decently active without ever open limping, so I thought my standard opening raise was the best way for me to double through. As for the flop play, I thought about it alot last night and I think I played it correctly. The entire hand is "close", but I don't regret how I played it. I'm the type of guy who always takes a deep look at his play and isn't afraid to admit when he misplays a hand, so I enjoy the discussion very much. I wish the results could have been different, but oh well SIGH.

Ok now knowing all of the relevant information about the table, it's clear I think that I would be making the standard raise preflop. If 11k was your standard, then that's what the raise should be. 9.5k-10k could also be good raising amounts, but as you said you'd been going to 11k so that's the amount that is best, it clearly disguises the hand as Hoos' said he hadn't shown too many hands, if any, when he made the standard raise.The only hands that Hoos' has shown are the AK when he pushed to Amnon's raise and the TT when he pushed over Amnon's limp. Both solid hands, and he'd never shown a hand when he raised to 11k, as he had just picked up the blinds. Because of this, Hoos' utg raise to 11k might even be perceived as weaker than normal since apparently his preflop raises had been respected the entire day and he possibly could have been taking advantage of that and the fact that the utg raise looks stronger normally to pick up some needed blinds around the bubble with a shortish stack.Limping is a great choice generally, I think, but in this case (never preflop limped before, non-aggressive table) makes it the second best behind the std. raise. Had the table been more aggressive, meaning he would have a better chance to reraise push pre, limping would be probably the #1 choice.I think we've pretty much covered the preflop action thoroughly and I don't see the best chance at getting our money in as being the preflop standard raise. Second would be the limp, third the push, and fourth the 4x raise.Now postflop I think we still have some stuff to cover. I haven't watched the Amnon video yet and I'm going to do that now. I'm interested in what he's going to say.

[JesseW316 0]

K I just watched the video and heard Amnon's comments. Not a lot of content to get any new info, other than he implied that he pushed the flop and both Chip and the button folded and he picked up the pot. I was unaware of that, and was under the impression that the button had called the push after Chip folded. That doesn't change anything about our actions, I just thought it was interesting that the button folded. I'm guessing he did not have what I was almost certain he had (JJ with a small possibility of 99). I was pretty confident about that but once again I'm not sure how deep his stack was preflop with the 11k in front of him. I guess he had QJ? Hoos do you know by chance?