Mercury69 3 Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 Ultimately, it's a bad read by me.I made a huge comeback from 1K to about 19K to make it into the money and, with 27 players left, the following happened.Me (SB): about 19KVillain (BB): 34K; seems aggressive, using a big stack like a mace, but it's only a couple of hands into this table.Blinds: 800/1600, 100 ante (or something like that)I get AA in SB, one limper. I raise to 3x BB, BB calls, limper folds. There is about 14K in the pot. Flop comes down T63 rainbow or something like that. I think for a bit and make a 7K bet, BB pushes and has me covered. Here's where I lost control. Without even thinking, I called. Now, does his bet scream set or what? In retrospect, you bet it does, but I'd been on a nice rush to get where I was and I allowed that to inhibit my judgement. I could have folded, leaving myself with about 8 or 10K (well below the average), but still alive and I didn't, so I paid the price. He flipped up TT and bagged quads for good measure on the turn.What would you have done?My retro thinking is: Make a small probe bet of 4-5K and see what he does or even check. Thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites
rogerwilco 0 Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 I disagree, I don't see how you can fold AA here, with a pot that huge and your stack/blind ratio. Link to post Share on other sites
pokerfan1080 0 Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 Your read was that he was a bully so I'm not sure you can assume he hit trips with that bet. Most bullies will do the same if they hit any part of a flop.You enticed the action you were looking for with a weak preflop raise and even weaker flop bet. Even if he didn't hit his hand, he probably would have raised your flop bet if he was a thinking player whether he hit the flop or not. AA is a winning hand in the long run, getting your money in with it is all you can do.What to do different? I like a bigger preflop raise and a bigger flop bet. But I probably go broke with this hand here too. He just got lucky, that's poker. Link to post Share on other sites
SlackerInc 0 Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 I agree with the comments so far. Plus, with an M of <6, I would have pushed preflop anyway. (Yes, you might "lose some customers" that way, but I will show the aces if no one calls my push, which then sets me up later when I push with something weaker.) Link to post Share on other sites
caribstv 0 Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 I agree with the comments so far. Plus, with an M of <6, I would have pushed preflop anyway. (Yes, you might "lose some customers" that way, but I will show the aces if no one calls my push, which then sets me up later when I push with something weaker.)thats not a flop to get away from.. Just bad luck......you were distined to lose. even if you push preflop he'd prob call anyway and these late stages...... Just brush it off Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted January 19, 2007 Author Share Posted January 19, 2007 I like the preflop push option and wish I had done so. He's probably calling with TT, looking to catch me stealing or with AK/AQ, so I end up losing anyway. Just seemed a shame to go out like that. Link to post Share on other sites
pokerfan1080 0 Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 I like the preflop push option and wish I had done so. He's probably calling with TT, looking to catch me stealing or with AK/AQ, so I end up losing anyway. Just seemed a shame to go out like that.Yup, having a monster hand cracked is not a good way to go out. Unfortunately, it's the nature of the beast.On another note I watched a video posted in general yesterday that had three or four bad beats from big tournies. They were sick beats and display just how sick poker can be.Edit: found video........... Clickie my Linkie! Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted January 19, 2007 Author Share Posted January 19, 2007 Ahahah...nasty.That Harman vs Zeidman hand is covered in depth in Harrington 3.The Farha hand was first hand of WSOP 2005 laff. Farha is one nasty customer. Link to post Share on other sites
rogerwilco 0 Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 I think you are being result-oriented here, Mercury. Would you really criticise you play looking back if BB had shown AT or QQ and you doubled up or if he hit his set on the river to bust you? Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted January 19, 2007 Author Share Posted January 19, 2007 Another good point, Roger. I'm not really upset with myself, just the result (and only a little bit now, after your responses, much thanks). I wanted to explore some other lines of action so I can have more options available to me should this occur again. And it will, I'm sure... Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisRichey 1 Posted January 19, 2007 Share Posted January 19, 2007 There's no way you're getting away from this HU on that flop, give me a break. BBFIDTS. Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 Why is your raise only 3xBB in the SB with a limper? If it's to trap, fine. If not, then it's too small and make it closer to 6k. But, I have AA late in a tourney, I'm trying to win as much as possible. For me this is a tough decision on what to do, because I RARELY raise out of my SB without a monster, unless I'm shoving to pick up dead money. I'd probably raise it up to 5k and then auto push the flop and hope someone hit a piece of it. If I was playing against some solid players I might just push PF and make it look like I'm trying to get the dead money. I'm never ever just completing.Getting away from AA on this flop is insane and you should stop playing like such a nancy or stop being so results biased. Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted January 22, 2007 Author Share Posted January 22, 2007 Why is your raise only 3xBB in the SB with a limper? If it's to trap, fine. If not, then it's too small and make it closer to 6k. But, I have AA late in a tourney, I'm trying to win as much as possible. For me this is a tough decision on what to do, because I RARELY raise out of my SB without a monster, unless I'm shoving to pick up dead money. I'd probably raise it up to 5k and then auto push the flop and hope someone hit a piece of it. If I was playing against some solid players I might just push PF and make it look like I'm trying to get the dead money. I'm never ever just completing.Getting away from AA on this flop is insane and you should stop playing like such a nancy or stop being so results biased. Eh! A tad harsh perhaps lol. I did say I wasn't overly concerned about the results (after I got over the initial sting). I just wanted some other lines of reasoning. Cheers! Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 Erick Lindgrens #1 mistake made by amateurs = overplaying AA after a missed flop.Its very hard to get away from the hand after a 7k bet on the flop, but is 1/2 pot bet necessary? There are no draws on the board, so there are almost no hands that can call a flop bet that dont have you beat. Ie this is clearly a WA/WB situation that calls for a small bet. Given these stacks, betting 4-4.5k and folding to his repush is a very reasonable line...Im not sure Im good enough to do it at the table either, but you can get away from this hand. Link to post Share on other sites
Vman96 0 Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 Erick Lindgrens #1 mistake made by amateurs = overplaying AA after a missed flop.Its very hard to get away from the hand after a 7k bet on the flop, but is 1/2 pot bet necessary? There are no draws on the board, so there are almost no hands that can call a flop bet that dont have you beat. Ie this is clearly a WA/WB situation that calls for a small bet. Given these stacks, betting 4-4.5k and folding to his repush is a very reasonable line...Im not sure Im good enough to do it at the table either, but you can get away from this hand.Um yeah, fold the flop after you already have half your stack invested, real smart idea. [/sarcasm] A lot of people will just push top pair here or less. Also since you are betting very small, some opponents may think thats weakness, and they will jam you just to get you to fold, which is exactly what would happen if the OP follows your advice. It is almost impossible to overplay AA at the OP's given stack size. Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 Um yeah, fold the flop after you already have half your stack invested, real smart idea. [/sarcasm] A lot of people will just push top pair here or less. Also since you are betting very small, some opponents may think thats weakness, and they will jam you just to get you to fold, which is exactly what would happen if the OP follows your advice. It is almost impossible to overplay AA at the OP's given stack size.First, its not half your stack, its 40%. Second, you will often get the opposite read from good players...it looks like youre begging for a call. Third, I don't disagree, I said it was a reasonable line, not one I would necessarily take. In fact I would jam this preflop with an M<6. Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 Erick Lindgrens #1 mistake made by amateurs = overplaying AA after a missed flop.Its very hard to get away from the hand after a 7k bet on the flop, but is 1/2 pot bet necessary? There are no draws on the board, so there are almost no hands that can call a flop bet that dont have you beat. Ie this is clearly a WA/WB situation that calls for a small bet. Given these stacks, betting 4-4.5k and folding to his repush is a very reasonable line...Im not sure Im good enough to do it at the table either, but you can get away from this hand.I'm squirming here by even considering that you think folding is a reasonable line. Overplaying AA after a missed flop...how is 1063 rainbow a missed flop for AA? If I could pick a flop that didn't contain an A in it, this would be it. Does Lindgren qualify a missed flop is any flop not containing an A? If so, I could see this line of thinking, of control pot size etc if it is early in the tournament. At this point there is no chance that I fold. There are no draws, a weak little bet might be okay but in a blind v blind battle (which is what this has become) there will be far more bluff attempts. Even if both players are good, it doesn't mean that the BB is only coming over the top when he has better than AA right here.There is no way that starting with 19k, and then investing 8k from preflop and flop betting that we can fold to a raise. It's not reasonable, it's overly scared playing. I'm not sure about this, but if we do bet 4/4.5k and he comes over the top all in, and we give him the range of 2pr/set for 60% top pair 20% and air 20%, I still assume it's a call. I think this range is insanely skewed towards him having a hand as well. Link to post Share on other sites
mk 11 Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 Not a bad beat story... If you find yourself describing a hand where you lost after being ahead at some earlier point, it is a bad beat story, no matter what you think it is, no matter in what terms you couch it. Link to post Share on other sites
BeaverStyle 1 Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 I think folding here w/out a solid read is -ev... He can't make this move w/ 77-KK (no set), and you said he's been using his stack to bully.... This could easily be TPTK, KK-JJ... and if he's really loose, throw in a few smaller pairs. (villain might think we're on a C/bet...)Copernicus, I can see your reasoning here, but a re-raise into that board shouldn't make us think only a hand that beats AA would do that... With all the evidence, I'd get my chips in there as fast as possible. He needs either 10 10, 66, or 33 to have us beat... (two pair possibilities obv are there, but are very unlikely), but there are more than 3 other hands that could reraise us in this same spot. Link to post Share on other sites
krup24 0 Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 If you omit results this hand is an absolute no brainer. It's a bad beat and nothing more. I don't think there is any player on this forum who could fold here. Only thing would be an open push pf.If you want real/unbiased analysis don't post results. Every reply (except Cop's who would add something) would be 100% STD. Link to post Share on other sites
slix777 0 Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 Yah I think you played this well and got the action you wanted out of a pushy player. Just chalk it up to hittin the backend of the stats and be glad you hit it after cashing as far as I'm concerned. Link to post Share on other sites
X ima splasher X 0 Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 i wouldnt think about laying down my AA here. In fact, it would be a bad laydown. The blinds are pretty large, and he could be trying to pick up the pot with any piece. Very rarely are you beat here. Dont feel bad about your play, you did nothing wrong Link to post Share on other sites
SlackerInc 0 Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 In fact I would jam this preflop with an M<6.Sweet. Do you like my play of showing the aces if everyone folds? Or are you more of the "never show" school.Actually, I think I'm going to go post a poll on showing hands, come to think of it. Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Sweet. Do you like my play of showing the aces if everyone folds? Or are you more of the "never show" school.Actually, I think I'm going to go post a poll on showing hands, come to think of it.The only time I show hands are near the bubble or final table where I will show hands the opposite of the way Im playing...eg I will show strong hands if Im stealing, and show funky hands if Im generally playing tight. Link to post Share on other sites
SlackerInc 0 Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 The only time I show hands are near the bubble or final table where I will show hands the opposite of the way Im playing...eg I will show strong hands if Im stealing, and show funky hands if Im generally playing tight.Right on--that's more or less what I do, at least the former. I posted a new thread about it where I expanded on my philosophy a bit. Link to post Share on other sites
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