What Moves Work In Low Buy-in Mtts?

[BeaverStyle 1]

Sticky icky.

W0rd

[Brunswick14 0]

Some more thoughts......Some of you advocated a TAG system in the early stages of these tournies. After this last month of playing and just looking at the pattern of when i went deep and when i went out in the middle to just past cash stages, you HAVE to be loose in the beginning. Maybe not LAG but definately loose. The first 3 levels in stars tournies are all about implied odds for myself. And frankly i dont want to play a 1k person tourny when right off the bat i am playing short stack poker. Get a double up, gamble to get to 4.5k by the 4-5th level, you now have put yourself in an uber great position to go deep and possibly FT this biatch. as the blinds jump identify the key levels where lots of ppl transition to manageable stacks to short stacks. Pick on the weak ones, stay out of the way of the crazies. During those times in a tourny you really need to think about protecting ur stack instead of building it. Another move I have been doing that seems to work in a positive EV way is the stop and go. I dont think we have discussed this in this thread yet. Here is the most common situation where i choose to use the stop and go. I am short w/ M of 3-7 in the sb or bb with a smallish pocket pair, 55-99/TT, late position raises or loose player from whatever position raises. Folded to me, I think, "There is a good possibility that my hand is best right now." So I decide to call then PUSH ANY FLOP, for myself it is very helpful to not even look at the flop when I perform this play (puts my mind at ease). Ideally the raise should be close to half your stack or once you call and then subsequently push your push is HALF the pot. I say half the pot because say they do have something like AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, JT..... whatever, not a high pocket pair 2/3rds of the time they will miss the flop so on pure mathematics we have a break even situation granted they fold when they miss. Not only that but say you do your little stop and go with a pair of say 66s, the person very reasonably may have 99-JJ. The flop comes with a variation of 2 A, K, or Qs. Well you just outplayed your opponent and made him lay down the best hand that if you were to push pre were a 4:1 dog. oh and guys i see a lot of you posting basic strat guides to going deep in low buy-in mtts. My intention of this thread is to limit the discussion to, "Moves" i.e. plays that affectively pick up dead money that are independant of your cards. By acquiring a range of these moves it will assist us in more consistently going deep in tournies because we become less reliant on the cards that are arbitrarly given to us. ..... Beaverstyles, BBFIDTS, j/k ...... And I don't want anymore talk of TAG poker or "Solid" strat.... this is not the place!

I dont know if this play is a good idea or not, what if you had 66 and you limp in the sb and the bb checks with like a K7then the flop comes king high. you push now, and he has to call you. if you would have pushed preflop he would just fold his K7 and wait for a better hand.Also if the person did have JJ in the big blind with a short stack small blind limp, they wouldnt just check they would push you in.

[Alex916F 0]

I dont know if this play is a good idea or not, what if you had 66 and you limp in the sb and the bb checks with like a K7then the flop comes king high. you push now, and he has to call you. if you would have pushed preflop he would just fold his K7 and wait for a better hand.Also if the person did have JJ in the big blind with a short stack small blind limp, they wouldnt just check they would push you in.

Maybe i didnt explain myself clearly..... with the stop and go i am referring to a move where there is a raise preflop. like i said earlier ideally u are in the sb or bb someone raises you call with the knowledge that you will be HU (if ur in the bb), or likely HU (in the sb) you then push any flop and like i said ideally ur push is about 1/2 the size of the pot. now the situation ur referring to is when it is folded to you in the sb, in that situation i would likely push with a hand like 77 or you could do the stop and go if you were to raise about half ur stack then push any flop. for the stop and go to work you have to be the first one in the pot, remember that.

[Flack_attack 0]

What is the best way to deal with the excessive limpers (I'm seeing this more and more and it's rather frustrating) and also mini-raisers that proliferate in the middle and even late stages of low buy-in MTTs?

[simo_8ball 0]

What is the best way to deal the excessive limpersRaise them. The squeeze play is your friend.

[Flack_attack 0]

I was under the impression that the squeeze play was a big re-raise after a raise and a call, not limpers.

[simo_8ball 0]

I was under the impression that the squeeze play was a big re-raise after a raise and a call, not limpers.

Technically yes, you are correct. What I'm suggesting is what's known generally as 'the Barry play' (after Barry Greenstein). It goes by the same principle as the squeeze play though and works very well in many situations.

[Jam-Fly 8]

A very good example of this is the very first hand of the Paris final table. There's was about 5 limpers I think and David Benyamine (the CL) raised all in. My memory of the hand is very bad, but he had a hand most people would just check and see a flop with (66 or AJ etc.).

[Brunswick14 0]

Maybe i didnt explain myself clearly..... with the stop and go i am referring to a move where there is a raise preflop. like i said earlier ideally u are in the sb or bb someone raises you call with the knowledge that you will be HU (if ur in the bb), or likely HU (in the sb) you then push any flop and like i said ideally ur push is about 1/2 the size of the pot. now the situation ur referring to is when it is folded to you in the sb, in that situation i would likely push with a hand like 77 or you could do the stop and go if you were to raise about half ur stack then push any flop. for the stop and go to work you have to be the first one in the pot, remember that.

I understand now. sorry, im pretty retarted

[blakheart 3]

I occasionally played AK or AQ slow now in certain situations, being able to trap particulary when the M's are low.Example today in a live MTT. I am CL in the BB with AQ diamonds. Short stack calls UTG for half his stack all folds to me, I check. Flop comes A 10 3 (2 diamonds), I check he goes all in with JQ. GG him. I used to automatically raise preflop, now I know we are going to get it all in, I'll let him bluff it in.Another "move " mentioned is to overbet made hands. I found that in low buy in tourney's people decide to call or fold regardless of the size of the bet. And a big river bet may look like a bluff.

[DoinSublime 0]

Another "move " mentioned is to overbet made hands. I found that in low buy in tourney's people decide to call or fold regardless of the size of the bet. And a big river bet may look like a bluff.

[copernicus 0]

What is the best way to deal with the excessive limpers (I'm seeing this more and more and it's rather frustrating) and also mini-raisers that proliferate in the middle and even late stages of low buy-in MTTs?

Call with great implied odds, see a flop and play poker. Squeeze plays in low buy in tournaments are a ridiculous strategy. Even in the late stages most people are still predominately playing there own two cards, not stacks.

[simo_8ball 0]

Squeeze plays in low buy in tournaments are a ridiculous strategy. Even in the late stages most people are still predominately playing there own two cards, not stacks.

Not if you pick the right situations. Squeeze plays can work well at any level, but you have to be very selective.

[copernicus 0]

Not if you pick the right situations. Squeeze plays can work well at any level, but you have to be very selective.

Even if you pick the right rare situation, they still dont always work. Even Harringtons criteria require that you have an image of being extremely tight. Online low limit players don't observe enough to know if you are tight or not, they are watching TV, searching the web, and flirting with their cyber girlfriends while they are playing.

[simo_8ball 0]

They don't always need to work, and I find that it is often a very good way of picking up dead money. I don't believe it is entirely necessary to have a tight image either. As you say, they are often playing just their own 2 cards. If they don't raise, they usually don't have a big enough hand to call a large raise. The only times you will usually get in trouble are when someone has limped with 99/TT or AQ and can't let go.It is a high variance play, but if you use it selectively it is definitely +EV.

[tuckermitchell 1]

They don't always need to work, and I find that it is often a very good way of picking up dead money. I don't believe it is entirely necessary to have a tight image either. As you say, they are often playing just their own 2 cards. If they don't raise, they usually don't have a big enough hand to call a large raise. The only times you will usually get in trouble are when someone has limped with 99/TT or AQ and can't let go.It is a high variance play, but if you use it selectively it is definitely +EV.

I have to agree. I predominantly try to play tourneys I can afford to lose, so that I can gamble early to accumulate chips quickly. I squeeze in LP with hands like KQ or AJ and am willing to gamble my money on a flip then and against the less frequent chance that I am dominated. I prefer to gamble early in the tournament and get a stack to go deep with rather than just trying to hold on all tourney and have to flip later when I am shortstacked and nearing the bubble or just into the money. I would rather have gambled and lost in the first 30 minutes or be a large stack and be able to call people who are gambling late in +EV situations. Not only that but having a big stack gives me the opportunity to steal freely late without having to worry about the steal raise's amount in relation to my stack.

[DoinSublime 0]

Something that hasnt been mentioned. When a not so good player in one of these MTT's or SNG's loses a big hand, you can be almost sure of the tilt factor. On the next hand, they will shove: any ace or any pair. So just be on the lookout for this, it is something I see all the time. If you pick up a good hand, or have a stack big enough to race with, always be on the lookout for the newb who just lost a big pot, because most likely they are shoving their next hand. Sometimes with anything bigger than a 10, but most of the time, like I said, with any ace or pair.

[DoinSublime 0]

something else I've picked up on. (this could be common place for experienced players, this newby just realized it)when you raise with your suited connectors (or w/e you have), and a raggedy A board flops, represent the ace. if you raised preflop, inexperienced players are thinking high cards, and if they don't have that ace, they are folding, and if they do have it they are playing right back at you.another thing, especially early on, is to exploit the fact that inexperienced players play Ace rag a lot. so pick up on who does and note it, and then use it against them to stack them when you can

[SlackerInc 0]

when you raise with your suited connectors (or w/e you have), and a raggedy A board flops, represent the ace. if you raised preflop, inexperienced players are thinking high cards, and if they don't have that ace, they are folding, and if they do have it they are playing right back at you.

Yes, this works well for me at PS micro buyins. I don't know if I'd do it OOP, but when I am in position, after I raised limpers preflop (with say JJ) and they called (in these things, especially when the blinds are low, once they've limped they'll often call a raise when they shouldn't--usually without high cards), and the flop comes with an ace, they'll often check, check, check to me, then I bet say 40% of the pot, and down they go like matchsticks, LOL. (When, as you say, they do in fact have an ace, usually they'll bet ahead of me and then I'm gone; or very occasionally they'll check-raise and then I'm gone as well, but the bet works way more than it needs to.) This often works with a K or Q up there instead, since as you say they are thinking all about high cards in a raiser's hand.

[Big_Slick_86 0]

Patience, position, keeping pots small without the nuts. Avoid big bluffs unless youve seen he villain fold and every street makes sense

Call with great implied odds, see a flop and play poker. Squeeze plays in low buy in tournaments are a ridiculous strategy. Even in the late stages most people are still predominately playing there own two cards, not stacks.

Copernicus if you weren't reducibly complex I'd worship you. Solid and tight is definately the way to go, see my own travails from this evening...http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...showtopic=84273(I'm not wantin to bump my own post folks ) but certainly in the early stages, I found this strategy definately helped.

[SlackerInc 0]

Copernicus if you weren't reducibly complex I'd worship you.

Kudos for the very clever tweak on the ID crowd there! LOL

[DoinSublime 0]

Yes, this works well for me at PS micro buyins. I don't know if I'd do it OOP, but when I am in position, after I raised limpers preflop (with say JJ) and they called (in these things, especially when the blinds are low, once they've limped they'll often call a raise when they shouldn't--usually without high cards), and the flop comes with an ace, they'll often check, check, check to me, then I bet say 40% of the pot, and down they go like matchsticks, LOL. (When, as you say, they do in fact have an ace, usually they'll bet ahead of me and then I'm gone; or very occasionally they'll check-raise and then I'm gone as well, but the bet works way more than it needs to.) This often works with a K or Q up there instead, since as you say they are thinking all about high cards in a raiser's hand.

I will do it OOP against one villain and the reason is this: It is cheap to do it. If they are folding, they will fold to a bet 40% the size of the pot as much as they will a bet the size of the pot, so I will bet out against one opponent to get my information cheaply. In a multiway pot, the only way I do it is if there is only one player left to act behind me, making the percentages that much more in my favor, in fact, making it almost as if it is a one on one.

[rogerwilco 0]

I have to disagree to a certain extent that bluffs don't work in low buy in tourneys. Some things I habitually do in the later stages that are very profitable:- I often have a guy to my right who completes the SB when it is folded to him, and also when there is one limper (when I'm getting desperate but still have fold equity even with 2 limpers), I'll raise 4xBB (or move allin depending on my stack) a lot whenthe blinds are worth it.- sometimes there's an aggressive player to my right who can't keep himself from raising my blinds, and I'll re-steal with any hand that has decent showdown value (no weak aces though, because he might call with A8 or so)- often, the players who seem to by playing somewhat decently are in fact just tight/weak. What I mean is, they'll continuation bet, but fold to a raise on the flop. smallish bets on the flop almost always are a sign of weakness. - and big stacks often play too aggressively because they think they are in god-mode or something, slowplaying (even preflop with less than great hands) can work perfectly in the right situations.

[DoinSublime 0]

I have to disagree to a certain extent that bluffs don't work in low buy in tourneys. Some things I habitually do in the later stages that are very profitable:- I often have a guy to my right who completes the SB when it is folded to him, and also when there is one limper (when I'm getting desperate but still have fold equity even with 2 limpers), I'll raise 4xBB (or move allin depending on my stack) a lot whenthe blinds are worth it.- sometimes there's an aggressive player to my right who can't keep himself from raising my blinds, and I'll re-steal with any hand that has decent showdown value (no weak aces though, because he might call with A8 or so)- often, the players who seem to by playing somewhat decently are in fact just tight/weak. What I mean is, they'll continuation bet, but fold to a raise on the flop. smallish bets on the flop almost always are a sign of weakness. - and big stacks often play too aggressively because they think they are in god-mode or something, slowplaying (even preflop with less than great hands) can work perfectly in the right situations.

I definitely agree with you. I think I have just flip flopped back and forth because I haven't singled out the right times to do such. Everytime I think I have one down, I get busted by a donk who called a 3xBB raise preflop with A3o and then calls his chips off with the 3, etc etc or something of the sort.But, this just means I am still learning and need to continue to do so on my reads of when it is appropriate. But, yeah, I do agree, and thanks for your thoughts. Solid help.

[Alex916F 0]

I have to disagree to a certain extent that bluffs don't work in low buy in tourneys. Some things I habitually do in the later stages that are very profitable:- I often have a guy to my right who completes the SB when it is folded to him, and also when there is one limper (when I'm getting desperate but still have fold equity even with 2 limpers), I'll raise 4xBB (or move allin depending on my stack) a lot whenthe blinds are worth it.- sometimes there's an aggressive player to my right who can't keep himself from raising my blinds, and I'll re-steal with any hand that has decent showdown value (no weak aces though, because he might call with A8 or so)- often, the players who seem to by playing somewhat decently are in fact just tight/weak. What I mean is, they'll continuation bet, but fold to a raise on the flop. smallish bets on the flop almost always are a sign of weakness. - and big stacks often play too aggressively because they think they are in god-mode or something, slowplaying (even preflop with less than great hands) can work perfectly in the right situations.

I disagree with this statement. this push is really player dependant. I have been knocked out or doubled up by plenty of ppl who think ur making a move and call half their stack off with A4s. any somewhat decent hand they are holding u are putting yourself at a pretty big risk. In this situation that you describe i like employing a push with premium hand selection, 99 or higher and AK AQ, and maybe AJ. I'll do this when i am sb or bb because if i have a pp it doesnt do well in a multiway pot and this pot might be plenty big already or my big A will be hard to play after the flop if i hit my A and get some aggression towards me. you would be shocked how often ppl call with 77 or a weak ace, then you have them crushed...... for me i find the push with bunch of limpers play getting called way too often.