limping monster hands

[DCWildcat 0]

I'd be slightly more prone to limping with AK--it's a drawing hand anyway.

Take that thought. Think the opposite. Now you're correct.

Really? For low-limit hold em, I tend to benefit when I can get more weak aces and weak kings in. They'll usually give me another bet or two when their card flops. The fish will give me three or four.By the way (and I wasn't clear on this), I meant slightly more prone relative to AA/KK/QQ etc. I did NOT mean slightly more prone to raising with it preflop--I'm still raising with it the vast majority of the time. Sorry for the confusion.

[redfish 0]

But it seems I lose SO much money to these guys. Seriously, I get caught all the time with it. I see it AT LEAST once every 2  hours in a session

It seems like so much money to these guys because you are only seeing when they win the showdown. You aren't seeing the times when they get beat by two pair, trips, etc.. I believe you rarely make any decent money limping with aces unless you get action preflop. Other than that if 5 people see the flop you need to hit a set or something normally to just win the pot.

[Snowman22 0]

As others said, it totally depends on the style of poker. Limping AA, KK or AK in any limit or full-handed game is a bad idea the majority of the time.However, in NL-6 with AA or KK, u want to get two callers to maximise value (in my opinion), and a lot of the time, this means limping from late position or in the blinds.Also, i would classify AK as a drawing hand in a limit game.

[pockets 0]

Raising with AK won't drive out weak aces in low limit games. That's what makes them easy to beat-people misplay their hands.And even if AK is a drawing hand, the equity it gets means you should be raising with it every time in an unraised pot.

[NormanHaupt 0]

Raising with AK won't drive out weak aces in low limit games. That's what makes them easy to beat-people misplay their hands.And even if AK is a drawing hand, the equity it gets means you should be raising with it every time in an unraised pot.

Raising AK = pocket Q's in the mind of noobs. They see the ace, you act a little scared, and you've got them hooked to the river.AK is the best hand to raise period.

[pokargrl 0]

Limp with the intention of only calling a raise with AA and KK = very bad idea. Limping with the intention of raising a raise with AA and KK = good idea if played well. At an aggressive table, it's a great way to get a bunch of dead money in the pot. For example, you hold AA UTG and limp. UTG +2 raises 4xBB, and there's 3 callers. I usually raise to like 15-20xBB at this point. That way, I'm committed to the pot all in, but the original raiser is likely to call, and the others will probably fold. However, if you limp with AA UTG, and so do 6 others, you've got a tough situation. I'll usually bet out 3/4 of the pot to find out where I am (assuming I didn't flop a set). If you get raised, and several other people seem to like the hand, folding is probably a good choice. Unless you can be reasonably certain that your overpair is good, you're very likely beat by 2 pair or a set. An additional benefit to limp-raising is nobody ever believes you. If you limp-raise a small raise into a bunch of callers, one of the idiots is bound to call you with a bad hand. Doubling/tripling up are extremely common if the limp raise works.

[WalkingSticks 0]

I think that depending on the texture of the game, an early position limp with Aces can be a very profitable move. But, like I said, it depends on the texture of the game. You can occasionally limp with Aces in early position if you are in an aggressive NL game. In my experience this can make a lot of money. But it is an incorrect move if you are in a passive game with people seeing a lot of multiway flops. Also when I limp and there is a raise behind me, I generally re-raise rather than smooth call, but this is probably because my post-flop game is weak.

[HtotheNootch 0]

Nahmie (sorry was possessed by Cliff Clavin)You probably play aggressive. Even so, I'd be willing to shove a good portion of my stack into the middle that you're not a Maniac, however it can also be a case of "I'll let them bet the hand for me". I've done this to maniacs before. There's nothing like having the absolute nuts and someone else doing the betting/raising. You're not a maniac, but sometimes you'll get caught with a strong hand, but not the nuts. It happens.

[Vade 0]

Limp with the intention of only calling a raise with AA and KK = very bad idea. Limping with the intention of raising a raise with AA and KK = good idea if played well. At an aggressive table, it's a great way to get a bunch of dead money in the pot. For example, you hold AA UTG and limp. UTG +2 raises 4xBB, and there's 3 callers. I usually raise to like 15-20xBB at this point. That way, I'm committed to the pot all in, but the original raiser is likely to call, and the others will probably fold. However, if you limp with AA UTG, and so do 6 others, you've got a tough situation. I'll usually bet out 3/4 of the pot to find out where I am (assuming I didn't flop a set). If you get raised, and several other people seem to like the hand, folding is probably a good choice. Unless you can be reasonably certain that your overpair is good, you're very likely beat by 2 pair or a set. An additional benefit to limp-raising is nobody ever believes you. If you limp-raise a small raise into a bunch of callers, one of the idiots is bound to call you with a bad hand. Doubling/tripling up are extremely common if the limp raise works.

Highlighted section explains perhaps 89-90% of the Bad beats taken by AA and KK, at least the ones that are most complained aboutPeople will call you with 2nd and bottom pair, make their hand on the turn and poof...no more acesI'd rather steal the blinds 10 times in a row with AA then lose 1 pot I could have avoided

[NormanHaupt 0]

Nahmie (sorry was possessed by Cliff Clavin)You probably play aggressive. Even so, I'd be willing to shove a good portion of my stack into the middle that you're not a Maniac, however it can also be a case of "I'll let them bet the hand for me". I've done this to maniacs before. There's nothing like having the absolute nuts and someone else doing the betting/raising. You're not a maniac, but sometimes you'll get caught with a strong hand, but not the nuts. It happens.

lol love the cliff impression. I knew a cliff back in high school but he was a bigger loser than I was so I never went along with the jokes.Surprised no one has make a Psycho reference, though, since my mother does play on PStars, as well.Anyway, I'll leave my style description up to the others who play with me- but tightly uber aggressive I am. I'm still learning controlled aggression- and raising for other reasons than to jam a pot- to save money on turn and river, for example.Anyway, its akin to Roadrunner and Coyote. I light up my rocket skates and think there's really a tunnel in the mountain- by the time I see the wet paint its too late and I'm commited.Anyway, I've calmed down from my initial post. It happens- this I know. I've cashed completely out and been bonus whoring.Since the insident, I've successfully built a BR large enough to safely play within 1/2 limits, too. So gg.

[holman3rd 0]

Limp with the intention of only calling a raise with AA and KK = very bad idea.  Limping with the intention of raising a raise with AA and KK = good idea if played well.  At an aggressive table, it's a great way to get a bunch of dead money in the pot.  For example, you hold AA UTG and limp.  UTG +2 raises 4xBB, and there's 3 callers.  I usually raise to like 15-20xBB at this point.  That way, I'm committed to the pot all in, but the original raiser is likely to call, and the others will probably fold.  However, if you limp with AA UTG, and so do 6 others, you've got a tough situation.  I'll usually bet out 3/4 of the pot to find out where I am (assuming I didn't flop a set).  If you get raised, and several other people seem to like the hand, folding is probably a good choice.  Unless you can be reasonably certain that your overpair is good, you're very likely beat by 2 pair or a set.  An additional benefit to limp-raising is nobody ever believes you.  If you limp-raise a small raise into a bunch of callers, one of the idiots is bound to call you with a bad hand.  Doubling/tripling up are extremely common if the limp raise works.  

Highlighted section explains perhaps 89-90% of the Bad beats taken by AA and KK, at least the ones that are most complained aboutPeople will call you with 2nd and bottom pair, make their hand on the turn and poof...no more acesI'd rather steal the blinds 10 times in a row with AA then lose 1 pot I could have avoided

Those that complain about bad beats don't understand Sklansky's Fundamental Theorem of Poker. You want opponents to call you when they don't have the pot odds to justify it. Long-term, this is EV+ vs. stealing blinds from hands like 7-2. Sure, you'll get sucked out on occassionally. After all, AA is not a 100% lock preflop.

[NormanHaupt 0]

Limp with the intention of only calling a raise with AA and KK = very bad idea.  Limping with the intention of raising a raise with AA and KK = good idea if played well.  At an aggressive table, it's a great way to get a bunch of dead money in the pot.  For example, you hold AA UTG and limp.  UTG +2 raises 4xBB, and there's 3 callers.  I usually raise to like 15-20xBB at this point.  That way, I'm committed to the pot all in, but the original raiser is likely to call, and the others will probably fold.  However, if you limp with AA UTG, and so do 6 others, you've got a tough situation.  I'll usually bet out 3/4 of the pot to find out where I am (assuming I didn't flop a set).  If you get raised, and several other people seem to like the hand, folding is probably a good choice.  Unless you can be reasonably certain that your overpair is good, you're very likely beat by 2 pair or a set.  An additional benefit to limp-raising is nobody ever believes you.  If you limp-raise a small raise into a bunch of callers, one of the idiots is bound to call you with a bad hand.  Doubling/tripling up are extremely common if the limp raise works.  

Highlighted section explains perhaps 89-90% of the Bad beats taken by AA and KK, at least the ones that are most complained aboutPeople will call you with 2nd and bottom pair, make their hand on the turn and poof...no more acesI'd rather steal the blinds 10 times in a row with AA then lose 1 pot I could have avoided

Those that complain about bad beats don't understand Sklansky's Fundamental Theorem of Poker. You want opponents to call you when they don't have the pot odds to justify it. Long-term, this is EV+ vs. stealing blinds from hands like 7-2. Sure, you'll get sucked out on occassionally. After all, AA is not a 100% lock preflop.

I play poker, not craps. Over the long term I can stand to beat someone, sure. Over the long term if i have the finical backing to keep reloading my BR when it busts out- again. Over the long term if I have the patience to sit there over and over and over.We all understand, as poker players, we want them to call us and we want their money when they don't have the odds. You're preaching to the choir buddy. Most of us are huge Sklansky fans.But the complaint, from me, is that when 80% of players not only see the fllop, but see the river too, in a game, it turns into a crap shoot. Variance skyrockets. You can make a killing in one night and you can lose your bankroll- yes even playing within your 300xbb limits.Again, I play poker not craps. The original post was about people limping with pocket AA and catching aggressive players like me completely off guard- and now its mutated. There's another post in the discussion area about pacific poker and this very topic. Feel free to visit it there.--Today I actually had someone limp AKs against my AQ today, too. It wasn't like he called my raise cold, either, he was purposefully limping to catch A-rag hands. My AQ was appearently a rag But I did catch another AK limper with my AJ when I spiked two pair on the flop. muhuhahahaha bastard.

[holman3rd 0]

We all understand, as poker players, we want them to call us and we want their money when they don't have the odds. You're preaching to the choir buddy. Most of us are huge Sklansky fans.

Relax already. Geez. I was merely responding to Vade's comment that he'd rather steal blinds 10x in a row with Aces. If you already are a Sklansky fan, then pass over my comments, as they were OBVIOUSLY not directed at players like you.

[holman3rd 0]

 Again, I play poker not craps. The original post was about people limping with pocket AA and catching aggressive players like me completely off guard- and now its mutated. There's another post in the discussion area about pacific poker and this very topic. Feel free to visit it there.

And I'll mutate this thread some more, but in response to your comments. I'm assuming you play 1/2 since you mentioned it previously. That said, what else do you expect? The % of players seeing a flop is very high at this low level, as is the number of passive players that limp with anything, including aces. If they are consistently "catching agressive players" like you "off guard," perhaps you need to work on your game a bit. Does it ever happen to me? Sure it does. In fact, my aggression tends to encourage fish to try and trap me with big hands. It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway...that's why it's so important to pay attention at a table and get reads on the players. Then again, I guess I'm preaching again. I'm sure you already know that.

[holman3rd 0]

We all understand, as poker players, we want them to call us and we want their money when they don't have the odds. You're preaching to the choir buddy. Most of us are huge Sklansky fans.

Relax already. Geez. I was merely responding to Vade's comment that he'd rather steal blinds 10x in a row with Aces. If you already are a Sklansky fan, then pass over my comments, as they were OBVIOUSLY not directed at players like you.

Norman,On further reflection, I apologize for my curtness. Perhaps you weren't being aggressive in your tone toward me, and I was just being oversensitive. Misinterpreting "tone" in emails and other electronic mediums is a big leak of mine.That said, your points are all well taken.

[BuzzWorthy 0]

I think limping with AA is overrated, ESPECIALLY at the low limits. The pros or higher limit players will make this play because they know if anyone else enters the pot, it will be for a raise, allowing them to re-raise, which is what you really want when you are limping with Aces. If you can't re-raise, you you risk losing the huge pre-flop edge of AA without any additional money in the pot. Once the flop hits, anything can happen.I didn't read all the posts, but are you talking limit or no-limit? I think the AA limp, which can be effective in higher-limit games, really shows it's strength in no-limit, as you can go all-in (or at least a LARGE amount)over the top on the re-raise, and you are almost certain to be called by only good hands, which are the ones AA has the biggest edge over (KK, QQ, AK, etc). In limit, it's only one more bet to call, and if the flop hits your opponent well, you could be in big trouble. Also - this play should ONLY be made from early position. Anyone who limps with a hand as strong as AA from late position is making a HUGE mistake, as you are very unlikely to get the benefit of the re-raise, and now you risk the flop hitting an opponent.

[Abbaddabba 0]

If you can't get away from hitting top pair, you're the fish.

[Abbaddabba 0]

But the complaint, from me, is that when 80% of players not only see the fllop, but see the river too, in a game, it turns into a crap shoot. Variance skyrockets.

There's a big difference between a crap shoot and this situation. Notably, your expected return is going to be far greater than dead even, where as with craps it's well below. 300BB's is more than enough to ensure you wont "go broke" while holding aces to a family pot, nor would it put a sizable dent in your bankroll. Your bankroll of 300BB's would suffice for a normally distributed set of incidents of holding aces in a family pot, at any reasonable level of significance. Your expectation would be through the roof.With enough data, you could probably calculate to what level of certainty a 300BB bankroll would be enough to avoid going broke, if repeated indefinitely. I don't see how it could be any less than 99% certain. When you consider the average return from aces in a family pot, that is an incredibly low risk to return ratio. If you're willing to forego that kind of risk for such an incredible boost in your expected return, you shouldn't be playing poker (cliched answer, but truer in this case than it has ever been). You will almost never get a better ratio while playing poker, unless you're playing with people that are virtually retarded.

[BuzzWorthy 0]

If you can't get away from hitting top pair, you're the fish.

Getting away from the hand has nothing to do with it. If you're beat, fold. It doesn't matter whether you played properly pre-flop or not.When I say you're in trouble, I mean that by not raising, you allowed a lesser hand a chance to draw out on you. If everyone has limped to you, holding AA in late position, of course you should raise. You are the favorite. You will probably get a lot of calls in limit, but you have the odds in your favor and you're getting more money inthe pot. There is NO point to limping in late position.For example, the flop could come 7-2-8, and you would have no idea where you're at in the hand, especially when you allowed the BB in for free.I'm fine with the limp-reraise in early position, as it offers you the chance to get 3 or more bets in with you having the edge. However, your play should vary, and you shouldn't do it every time.If you're advocating limping in late position, who's the fish?

[NormanHaupt 0]

Holy Off Topic, Batman!Look, I'm not complaining about not getting away from AA. Please read the ****ing post again. I'm complaining about people who limp AA and ideas how to combat this sudden fad.Jesus Christ.. just don't post unless you read the OP several times. It'll keep you from being wrong and off the topic.

[Mr Monkey 0]

Limping with AA or KK is a bad idea except heads up. Even limping with these hands with the intension of raising is in my opinion is a diaster waiting to happen. I have seen alot of people lose alot of money by trying to get cute. They just dont know what type of hands their oponents have. And they cant throw away AA.

[Trakker 0]

yea totally agreed, the reason why i dont limp in with AA, AK and such is that others limping in will draw against you. Sure you want more fish but you dont want the BB that checks in with 6 2 off suit to catch trips or two pair or straight etc...my advice raise modestly, wif AA or AK your pretty much boss and you should go in for a raise of 30% more than the BB. The people most likely to call are people holding pockets or similar hands, from that point its basically a race.

[GT123 0]

i watched the EPT copenhagen, where ram vaswani limped with pocket aces and this agressive swedish guy raises with AJ.. vaswani then flat calls and the flop comes all low cards. Vaswani goes all in, and the swedish guy calls him with ace high. That was the worse call I have ever seen, and after the swedish guy kept saying he was extremly unlucky in the tourny. it wasn't even heads up, almost a full table.Anyways,I think if your good enough and its the right table and situation, you can get away with limping once in awhile. But I wouldn't do it often.

[RISEorFall 0]

people who get all cute with these huge hands just watch too much tv. They see Ram Vaswani or Johnny Chan do it once or twice and think they can do it too. Sure it works sometimes, but if you ever watch the pros do it, you;ll notice they only limp with huge hands when there's only 1 or 2 people left in the hand. The only reason to slow play these is when you're up against some hyper aggressive player (like yourself) who can be caught playing their hands too aggressively. In these cases, however, it is best to push after the flop. I don't think I've ever seen a pro slow play a huge hand past the flop and win. I also like to just call with AK when and only when there has already been a raise. I've trapped a lot of people this way, got a guy with AQ when an Ace hit, and a guy with KJ when a K hit. The only reason to this being that if you get a raiser before you, 1) he's done all the dirty work for you by raising and 2) you can put him on high paint or a pocket pair most likely, and if your AK hits, an overwhelming amount of the time you have him dominated. Then you can let him bet his high cards at you (and he most likely will bet with high cards on the board being the pre-flop raiser) and then re-raise him there. Plus, if you miss altogether, you can still bet at him, and he won't able to put you on a hand very accurately because you just called pre-flop. If he missed too he'll probably fold while mumbling something to himself about people playing anything and beating his premium hands.

[GT123 0]

people who get all cute with these huge hands just watch too much tv. They see Ram Vaswani or Johnny Chan do it once or twice and think they can do it too.

if thats directed at me. Did I say do it all the time?!!? I said given the right situation, and the right situation doesnt come up often, I also say you gotta be good enough to know when limping is ok.