Did I Get Gamed On This Hand?

[SCYUKON 0]

So I was out playing Bingo (sorry 3/6 limit) last night at the local brick and mortar when the following hand occurred.As usual, 6 players limp in ahead of me. I am on the button with 10 9 sooted, so decide to take a flyer and make the call. SB calls and BB checs. So pot is $27.Flop comes 10 9 4 rainbow, and it is checked to me so I bet out, and get 4 callers, one of whom is now all in. Pot is now $42.Turn is 6, and again it is checked to me. No flush on board but OESD may have just hit. I bet out $6 and get 2 callers, UTG and cutoff seats. Pot is now $60. 4players left (the one in mid position is all in).River is 2. There is no flush on board but board is a bit scary with 10 9 4 6 2 showing. 87 or 53 has me killed (and totally possible with this crowd).So UTG bets out $6, and cutoff raises it to $12! My two pair must be crushed at this point, so after mumbling to myself, I fold.UTG then proceeds to fold! WFT!!! He was last to act, cost $6 to win a pot of $78 at that point, and he folds.Thankfully, I got to see the cutoff's hand due to the sidepot with the all-in, and all he had was a pair of J's. Goddamit I threw away the wnning hand due to these river bets.So I ask the UTG what he had that was worth betting out on then folding to a raise when he was last to act. He got all huffy and said that he plays strange and that hopefully I would not have a problem with it.I said that I do when it seems a bit strange that he makes a play like that on the river then folds.At any rate, was I right to be pissed and suspect collusion? Probably just a donkey trying a bluff on the river against 3 players (one of whom was all-in LOL).But another question I have is, could I have asked to see the hand that the UTG mucked? Or is that not allowed.God I am still steamed over that one. Not sure if I should be though, could just be my bad for not recognizing the level of stupidity to be found in a 3/6 limit game at a brick and mortar on a Friday night. Still smells bad though.D

[Caught_clean 0]

Sadly you must of seen this before, the fold to the 6 dollars to win 3 million bet. You ask them why they fold and they scream " I was bluffing idiot!". He was probably on a draw and missed and thought his bet on the river was going to take it down.... cause that works in limit, right? Sadly you see this so much you cant say if you were cheated or not, and no im not folding top 2 there with that much in there.But yea sadly you know you cant ask to see his hand he folded, he pretty much admited he tried to bluff into that pot, and regardless well you just cant see his cards.

[chgocubs99 0]

You don't think there was a better than 6:1 shot that your 10 9 was good?

[mcpickl 0]

of course you can't see UTG hand, he folded to the raise.and i say no collusion, UTG just stinks

[DunkinDonuts 0]

The most likely hands that beat you, given the action, are 78, 22, and 66.Given the range typical at $3/6 limit games, I wouldn't assume anything. 3 5 is highly unlikely, even at these levels. Even 22 would be mildly surprising, though I've seen worse.My first instinct would have been that the raiser had JT-AT or an overpair, and was simply playing timidly to make sure an overcard didn't hit the board. I would not have been so confident in this read that I would have re-raised, but I certainly would have called $12 cold on that board.If your typical low-stakes limit player had flopped a set or two pair, I think you would have seen some pot-pumping earlier in the hand.

[Loismustdie 0]

You're not supposed to fold that hand there. I wouldn't. I would bet that 99.9% of the posters here wouldn't. So, really. the issue is that a bad read/bad play cost you money. Learn the lesson, next time call in that spot.

[WowThats 0]

No collusion...You may want to consider re-raising to $18 on the river, their only out is to make you believe they caught, if you re-raise you give the impression you caught and you're not afraid of what is on the board. Did you count the other players chips at any time during the betting? Three handed what is the casinos policy on the number of raises? If its 5 the most it can cost you is $26 more.I believe poker is a lot like chess, you have to know your moves ahead of time. Good luck,

[SCYUKON 0]

You're not supposed to fold that hand there. I wouldn't. I would bet that 99.9% of the posters here wouldn't. So, really. the issue is that a bad read/bad play cost you money. Learn the lesson, next time call in that spot.

Well with a UTG bet, a cutoff raise, how do I make that call. It is not 6 to 1 since the betting is not closed yet (remember the UTG could still pop it up to 18 and CUTOFF could make it 24).So if I was closing the betting, yea sure no problem, but these two guys had me caught between them.So I don't think I made a bad play at all, really, given that I could ended up paying $24 when the two players in front of me were (supposedly) stating that they had great hands.

No collusion...You may want to consider re-raising to $18 on the river, their only out is to make you believe they caught, if you re-raise you give the impression you caught and you're not afraid of what is on the board. Did you count the other players chips at any time during the betting? Three handed what is the casinos policy on the number of raises? If its 5 the most it can cost you is $26 more.I believe poker is a lot like chess, you have to know your moves ahead of time. Good luck,

The limit on the betting on the river is 4 bets, unless it is heads up, in which case it is unlimited.Indeed I never anticipated that two guys who had check called all the way would start betting and raising on the river. Smelt like some sort of trap to me and I got out before I could get squeezed. That is why the UTG fold has me wondering about collusion in the first place.I think the point that was missed by most was that I was not closing the betting with a call of $12, since the UTG still had to act after me, with the option to call or raise, obv. I never on earth considered that he would fold (unless I can put a guy on bluffing 3 others on the river, one of who is all in and can't fold LOL).At any rate, I don't think an overcall is proper with two pair with two possible straights on the Board and a bet and raise in front of me. But anyways, interesting to get folks input.ThanksD

[WowThats 0]

Then the most it can cost you is $18 more... if you go heads up the most it can cost you is $24.

[SCYUKON 0]

Then the most it can cost you is $18 more... if you go heads up the most it can cost you is $24.

Actually the math is $60 pot prior to betting.$78 in pot once it gets to me, costs me $12 to call to that point, but betting is not finished yet perhaps, 6.5 to 1 odds though.Worst case is I call $12, UTG pops it to $18, and cutoff makes it $24.Then I am committed I believe as pot would be 132/12 or 11 to 1, so would def go then.I dunno, those types of chases remind of what I used to do when first started out and ignored the Board. Sigh. game was more fun before learned the math

[Actuary 3]

call the $12, fold to a cap (assuming normal passive-ish live table)Call a 3-bet.

[chgocubs99 0]

Actually the math is $60 pot prior to betting.$78 in pot once it gets to me, costs me $12 to call to that point, but betting is not finished yet perhaps, 6.5 to 1 odds though.Worst case is I call $12, UTG pops it to $18, and cutoff makes it $24.Then I am committed I believe as pot would be 132/12 or 11 to 1, so would def go then.I dunno, those types of chases remind of what I used to do when first started out and ignored the Board. Sigh. game was more fun before learned the math

I know less about limit poker than most people on this planet, but couldn't you fold to another raise and re raise? I'd say you are about 100-1 at best to have the best hand if that happens, and you are only getting 11-1 to call...

[Caught_clean 0]

The only reasonable hand that beats you is 78, if someone had a set they would of raised on the turn. and hey if they didnt, and they slow played one of the few hands that beat you, they just saved you money, cause you could of lost more. Flat call on the river for sure.

[Jdr999 0]

YSAPSKY

[WowThats 0]

YSAPSKY

It was only a matter of time before someone offered something totally useless.Seriously... from time to time throw out all that odds crap.... get in there and gamble. If you place to much emphasis on odds you'll never achieve any part of your potential.

[chgocubs99 0]

It was only a matter of time before someone offered something totally useless.Seriously... from time to time throw out all that odds crap.... get in there and gamble. If you place to much emphasis on odds you'll never achieve any part of your potential.

No.

[DCJ001 0]

1. Other players may not play like you.2. We can't always wait for the nuts to make a call.3. Daniel would have called.

[Actuary 3]

.

thank you for not making a new thread to intro yourself,.

[Socrates 0]

Seriously, there is nothing that makes me smile more than knowing there are horrible players out there who complain about horrible players.

[Caught_clean 0]

I wouldnt say hes a horrible player, at least he had the sense to think 2 pair isnt the nuts like alot of people do, but giving the situation I think its a easy call.

[bdc30 0]

Chances are if they're smart enough to work out a system to collude at poker, they're not using it at the local 3/6 limit game.

[profxavier9 0]

that is a tough spot. if i dont have a read on a guy id say about 60 call 40 fold if i know he is capable of that play 90 call 10 fold. But your better of just calling all the time, unless it absolutely obvious your beat.

[SCYUKON 0]

Seriously, there is nothing that makes me smile more than knowing there are horrible players out there who complain about horrible players.

Hmmn - interesting that so many would just make the call with a player left to act and perhaps 1 more if that player pops it to 18, with the ability to pop it to 24.But if you think I am a horrible player for even considering folding in that spot, wow, are you ever a donkey (or at least you have not read Harrington on Holdem, or the Theory of Poker, where you get taught to consider things like considering if you are closing the betting, implied odds, stuff like that, things I never used to consider). Bit of a tell there, IMHO.It would probably be useful to have a valid poker stats database attached to each poster, so we could sort the wheat from the chaff.At any rate, I like the thought that if folks were smart enough to collude, they would not be using it at 3/6. That alone convinces me it was just stupidity by the UTG.As for the "forget the math and get in there and gamble!" quote, well that one really makes me smile. Takes me back to the days when I would lose 200 to 300 per night in just a couple of hours while I was learning. Now I would have to say I show a positive result of at least 10bb/session about 7 of 10 times.It would be great to get DN's opinion on this play, hope he goes a scanning sometime soon .At any rate, I will make that laydown again, it was just the potential colluding that I was wondering about.Thanks everyone for chiming in. Very interesting perspectives indeed.D

[Loismustdie 0]

Hmmn - interesting that so many would just make the call with a player left to act and perhaps 1 more if that player pops it to 18, with the ability to pop it to 24.But if you think I am a horrible player for even considering folding in that spot, wow, are you ever a donkey (or at least you have not read Harrington on Holdem, or the Theory of Poker, where you get taught to consider things like considering if you are closing the betting, implied odds, stuff like that, things I never used to consider). Bit of a tell there, IMHO.It would probably be useful to have a valid poker stats database attached to each poster, so we could sort the wheat from the chaff.At any rate, I like the thought that if folks were smart enough to collude, they would not be using it at 3/6. That alone convinces me it was just stupidity by the UTG.As for the "forget the math and get in there and gamble!" quote, well that one really makes me smile. Takes me back to the days when I would lose 200 to 300 per night in just a couple of hours while I was learning. Now I would have to say I show a positive result of at least 10bb/session about 7 of 10 times.It would be great to get DN's opinion on this play, hope he goes a scanning sometime soon .At any rate, I will make that laydown again, it was just the potential colluding that I was wondering about.Thanks everyone for chiming in. Very interesting perspectives indeed.D

I take it you didn't learn much from this thread. I will tell you DN's perspective. He would call, and then when he saw he was beat- or maybe just a split second before- he would announce to the camera what you had and why he had to call. It's uncanny.

[Socrates 0]

Hmmn - interesting that so many would just make the call with a player left to act and perhaps 1 more if that player pops it to 18, with the ability to pop it to 24.But if you think I am a horrible player for even considering folding in that spot, wow, are you ever a donkey (or at least you have not read Harrington on Holdem, or the Theory of Poker, where you get taught to consider things like considering if you are closing the betting, implied odds, stuff like that, things I never used to consider). Bit of a tell there, IMHO.It would probably be useful to have a valid poker stats database attached to each poster, so we could sort the wheat from the chaff.At any rate, I like the thought that if folks were smart enough to collude, they would not be using it at 3/6. That alone convinces me it was just stupidity by the UTG.As for the "forget the math and get in there and gamble!" quote, well that one really makes me smile. Takes me back to the days when I would lose 200 to 300 per night in just a couple of hours while I was learning. Now I would have to say I show a positive result of at least 10bb/session about 7 of 10 times.It would be great to get DN's opinion on this play, hope he goes a scanning sometime soon .At any rate, I will make that laydown again, it was just the potential colluding that I was wondering about.Thanks everyone for chiming in. Very interesting perspectives indeed.D

As mentioned before and by many others. The call is a pretty standard play there. As for people acting behind you, it was already mentioned that then you would have to fold to a cap. This donkey has 12 years of experience and the last 3 years of not having to "work." If you can justify your fold, why can't you justify his? His was almost surely a play at the pot with the nuts or nothing. Unless you raise there you are getting a great price to call and hope that it doesn't get capped. And what's up with referencing a NL tournament book as reason to justify your laydown?