The Second Bullet

[CobaltBlue 662]

I've been having pretty good results lately, but I feel like I've been struggling with the second bullet. It's not that I'm particularly afraid to fire it. I just have some difficulty telling whether passive opponents are on the draw, just calling the flop to test me, or actually have a legitimate hand.The real problem that I'm running into lately is that I'll have some sort of draw that I picked up on the flop or turn after raising pre-flop and c-betting. If I take the free card when I'm in position, I still might have the best hand on the river (with A/K-high or some small pair), but my opponent is often going to read that as weakness make a big uncallable bet on the river. If I bet the turn, I run the risk of getting check-raised or putting in money when it's quite -EV. Basically, what'd I'd like to do is check some strong hands on the turn, inducing my opponent to bet out on the river so that I can raise. The problem is that I'm so much in the mindset of betting strong hands and not allowing free cards that I'm almost always betting the turn when I've got the hand.I think it makes my play too transparent...almost always checking the turn when I'm drawing or don't have anything (unless I put my opponent on a draw, think he was just testing with the flop call, or I pick up a scare card), but I'm curious what y'all think. Am I just being paranoid?

[_Great_Dane_ 0]

I've been having pretty good results lately, but I feel like I've been struggling with the second bullet. It's not that I'm particularly afraid to fire it. I just have some difficulty telling whether passive opponents are on the draw, just calling the flop to test me, or actually have a legitimate hand.The real problem that I'm running into lately is that I'll have some sort of draw that I picked up on the flop or turn after raising pre-flop and c-betting. If I take the free card when I'm in position, I still might have the best hand on the river (with A/K-high or some small pair), but my opponent is often going to read that as weakness make a big uncallable bet on the river. If I bet the turn, I run the risk of getting check-raised or putting in money when it's quite -EV. Basically, what'd I'd like to do is check some strong hands on the turn, inducing my opponent to bet out on the river so that I can raise. The problem is that I'm so much in the mindset of betting strong hands and not allowing free cards that I'm almost always betting the turn when I've got the hand.I think it makes my play too transparent...almost always checking the turn when I'm drawing or don't have anything (unless I put my opponent on a draw, think he was just testing with the flop call, or I pick up a scare card), but I'm curious what y'all think. Am I just being paranoid?

My sarcasometer tells me that you're serious, so here we go:I feel that you're doing the right things, for the most part. I'd recommend mixing up your play. Sometimes, if you have a strong hand, like a straight or flush on the turn, bet it.Sometimes, when you have a strong hand and the other player checks the turn, go ahead and check the turn. If he bets the river, you can raise; if he checks the river too, you can bet it. And if he checks the turn and river, you bet the river, and he folds, you can show that you made a straight or flush on the turn and you were waiting for him to bet. This way when you're on a draw in the future, and you'd like a free card, the villain may check the turn for you and give you the free card.The villain may not know what to expect in the future.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Good points, Dane. I do think mixing up play is pretty essential here. I just often worry that if I check behind something like a straight on the turn, I'm giving my opponent a free draw to a flush or a house...or losing money if he's willing to pay with a card still to come.

[CBass1724 1]

I feel the same way that my play has become transparent at times. I guess I am paranoid that no matter what the flop is (online) that if I didn't hit it, the other person did. Stupid way of thinking I guess.I find lately that if I raise preflop and make that c-bet, that if the flop is ugly, I automatically get raised. Now this is good for overpairs when I have them. But more often than not, If I have AK or AQ and am missing the flop, I get pwned after I bet the flop.I have also found my results are getting better of getting paid off when I do bet my big hands. I think that online players have a tendency of thinking that when someone has a made hand that you should slow play it. I like betting it because my opponent won't often put me on a made hand and pay me off. I feel my opponent won't put me on a big hand if I bet it. But you guys are right, it is good to mix it up.Any thoughts on this?

[Whiskey16 1]

I feel the same way that my play has become transparent at times. I guess I am paranoid that no matter what the flop is (online) that if I didn't hit it, the other person did. Stupid way of thinking I guess.I find lately that if I raise preflop and make that c-bet, that if the flop is ugly, I automatically get raised. Now this is good for overpairs when I have them. But more often than not, If I have AK or AQ and am missing the flop, I get pwned after I bet the flop.I have also found my results are getting better of getting paid off when I do bet my big hands. I think that online players have a tendency of thinking that when someone has a made hand that you should slow play it. I like betting it because my opponent won't often put me on a made hand and pay me off. I feel my opponent won't put me on a big hand if I bet it. But you guys are right, it is good to mix it up.Any thoughts on this?

I don't know if it's right or wrong, but I've found myself being more careful on continuation bets, even if I've raised in position in a HU pot, epsecially if I have previously fired out continuation bets and hand them played back at me on uncoordinated boards. Often times, I'll improve on the turn and have someone fire into me once I've hit thinking I was weak before. Other times, with a harmless board, if checked again, I take the opportunity to bet the turn, a delayed continuation bet if you will.I think not always throwing out the continuation bet on the flop when you've missed makes future continuation bets stronger, as well.Regarding the second bullet, I agree you have to mix it up, and it's very read dependent. When you do have a big hand, and check the turn, you have to take that risk, and then if a scare card does come on the river, re-evaluate your action. Long run, you'll also get safe cards, where since you showed weakness on the turn, so they might bluff their missed draw, or hit a card that improves them slightly which might make you more than you would have extracted from a turn bet.But again, I think so much is read dependent. Against a straight forward player, if I miss the flop, c-bet, get called, then turn a draw. If I can take a free river, I will. I'll improve enough to have the best hand, and if the other player was drawing on the flop, I find that most of the straight forward players will check often enough for me to bet and take down the river.Interresting topic to discuss, though.

[DonkSlayer 1]

I find lately that if I raise preflop and make that c-bet, that if the flop is ugly, I automatically get raised. Now this is good for overpairs when I have them. But more often than not, If I have AK or AQ and am missing the flop, I get pwned after I bet the flop.I have also found my results are getting better of getting paid off when I do bet my big hands. I think that online players have a tendency of thinking that when someone has a made hand that you should slow play it. I like betting it because my opponent won't often put me on a made hand and pay me off. I feel my opponent won't put me on a big hand if I bet it. But you guys are right, it is good to mix it up.Any thoughts on this?

1st paragraph is flop-textury. I think a c-bet works best on boards like 2-4-Q than it does 7-8-10 with two suited. With the 2nd hand, you'll often get a raise or call from a villain in position that may have a weird draw or thinks you missed as well. 1st hand, if villain doesn't have a Q, overpair or set, he's not nearly as likely to chase with an underpair or AK/AJ. 2nd paragraph is read-dependent, but a lot of NL players don't want to lay down hands made at all, especially if you're betting-leading all the time. Cobalt, one suggestion. If you're not terribly comfortable firing the 2nd bullet, only do it in very marginal situations where you're pretty sure you're ahead but don't want to see a river. Checking the turn consistently with way-ahead and maybe-behind hands on the turn will mix it up just as much as if you were always betting them instead.

[CBass1724 1]

Thank you Donk, I tend to agree with you.Hey I am in northern VA, not too far away from you.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Thank you Donk, I tend to agree with you.Hey I am in northern VA, not too far away from you.

Do you get into any of the games up there? I know there was a bust about a year ago but there's a ton listed on homepokergames.com still.

[CBass1724 1]

Do you get into any of the games up there? I know there was a bust about a year ago but there's a ton listed on homepokergames.com still.

Yeah there were a couple busts up here, but the common denominator of them all have been a bar set up and the house taking a cut of the money and/or selling booze. Just stupid if you ask me.Unfortunately one was in my neighborhood but I didn't know the people.A guy on my gf's softball team invited me to play in a game that he goes to a lot in Stafford. It is a 2-5NL but they sell alcohol there too. I am just too nervous to go to places like that especially where I don't know anybody very well.My buddies and I play a lot of weekends up here and we rotate houses. Normally about 5-8 of us and we play 1-2NL with $300 max buy in. Plays more like a 3-6NL some days, lol.EDIT: Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread.

[_Great_Dane_ 0]

I feel the same way that my play has become transparent at times. I guess I am paranoid that no matter what the flop is (online) that if I didn't hit it, the other person did. Stupid way of thinking I guess.Any thoughts on this?

Keep in mind that, often, it's not whether you hit the flop; it's whether or not your opponent hit the flop. A player with unpaired hole cards will only make a pair on the flop about 30% of the time so, on a flop of 2 3 7 rainbow, if you make a continuation bet, and get raised, a reraise will probably take it down. This depends on how aggressive you'd like to play.This is also why playing position is important. If you raise from the button with A K preflop, get called by a blind, and the flop is 2 3 7 rainbow, the blind will most likely check, letting you bet and take it down.

[Big Blue 0]

Along these lines, I find myself making overcompensating to change gears. I'll push too often on draws, and slowplay too many stong hands. I think it makes me tougher to read in live games, but I'm worried that I become a bad transparent at times.Sometimes I wish I had a timer, letting me know when to go from aggressive to tight. I can often change gears when the new dealer sits, but I still think others are reading me too well. I guess I have some tells that I need to hide.

[DonkSlayer 1]

My buddies and I play a lot of weekends up here and we rotate houses. Normally about 5-8 of us and we play 1-2NL with $300 max buy in. Plays more like a 3-6NL some days, lol.EDIT: Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread.

Wish I had friends like that It's all I can do to get a $100max game going.

[No_Neck 0]

Wish I had friends like that It's all I can do to get a $100max game going.

Ha my weekly game just went from $5 to $10, I have walked away $90 dollar winner though. (with it at $5)

[kes1981 0]

If your fire second with air when your opponent floats alot of flops. Try using these two stats in HUD: fold to flop bet, fold to turn bet. On the other side, you should float villans if they CB alot, but don't fire second barrels. These stats are helpful for HUD: CB flop, CB turn

[delasoul 0]

If your fire second with air when your opponent floats alot of flops. Try using these two stats in HUD: fold to flop bet, fold to turn bet. On the other side, you should float villans if they CB alot, but don't fire second barrels. These stats are helpful for HUD: CB flop, CB turn

I tried reading your response but got lost from staring at the picture lmao.

[CobaltBlue 662]

If your fire second with air when your opponent floats alot of flops. Try using these two stats in HUD: fold to flop bet, fold to turn bet. On the other side, you should float villans if they CB alot, but don't fire second barrels. These stats are helpful for HUD: CB flop, CB turn

This is a good idea, kes. I guess I've tried doing that in a general sense from memory and notes since Bodog doesn't really support HUD, but I think I might give a more concentrated effort. Also, now that I can track Bodog in PT, I can look through those stats.

[SweetDaddyFreak 0]

The more I play and the better player I become, the more important position becomes. I'd fire the second bullet mainly depending on the texture of the board and the player. Also I try and think what bet I would make looks like I want it to get called, and what bet I make would make look weak.If I think my opponent will see a 3/4 turn bet as strength, I'll bet this with a weak hand. If I have a very strong hand and think he'll make an overbet on the river, I'll check. Always be one level above your opponentIf all else fails then reload and fire again on the river