Optimism Vs. Christianity

[zzz 0]

Most all Christians are pessimistic when it comes to the afterlife. You cannot prove that people will be miserable for eternity so why believe in that speculation and why preach it? The fact of the matter is we don't know what is going to happen when we die. A true optimist would say they believe that after you die the possibilities are endless. A more pessimistic view would be that after death it's possible you will be miserable for eternity and there is nothing you can do about it.

[Mattnxtc 0]

a christian is pessimistic? really? think a little harder and repost

[zzz 0]

a christian is pessimistic? really? think a little harder and repost

With regard to the afterlife absolutely. You believe without proof that the possibilities of what happens when we die are limited. That is the opposite of being an optimist and believing without proof that the possibilities are endless.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Zzz, you're misguided. A Christian believes that he/she is forgiven and if they repent their sins while acknowledging Jesus died for them on the cross, they will experience eternal bliss.

[Sluggo 0]

DonkSlayer, you're misguided. Different Christian sects believe different things.I think the afterlife is a rather optimistic invention.

[zzz 0]

Zzz, you're misguided. A Christian believes that he/she is forgiven and if they repent their sins while acknowledging Jesus died for them on the cross, they will experience eternal bliss.

And if not they are eternally screwed. Thats my point. You believe that every one has a choice, but when they die they can't choose anymore. That is obviously a pessimistic view. You the man Sluggo!

[DonkSlayer 1]

DonkSlayer, you're misguided. Different Christian sects believe different things.I think the afterlife is a rather optimistic invention.

Do tell, Sluggo. I thought Christianity wasn't your speciality. In any case, a Christian would argue it was quite simple to reach nirvana.

[Sluggo 0]

Historically, Christianity has been divided over how people gain entry into Heaven. From the 16th to the late 19th century, Christendom was divided between the Roman Catholic view, the Orthodox view, and Protestant views.Roman Catholics believe that entering Purgatory after death cleanses one of one's sins and makes one acceptable to enter Heaven. This is valid for "venial sins" only. Many within the Anglican Church also hold to this belief, despite their Protestant history. However, in Oriental Orthodox Churches, it is only God who has the final say on who enters Heaven. In the Eastern Orthodox Church, Heaven is understood as union and communion with the Triune God. Thus, Heaven is experienced by the Orthodox both as a reality inaugurated, anticipated and present here and now in the divine-human organism of the Christ's Body, the Church, and also as something future.In the Protestant traditions, entry into Heaven depends upon the Christian receiving God's grace through faith in Jesus. Protestant theology holds strongly that when Jesus died on the cross, he took upon himself the punishment for the world's sins.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Historically, Christianity has been divided over how people gain entry into Heaven. From the 16th to the late 19th century, Christendom was divided between the Roman Catholic view, the Orthodox view, and Protestant views.Roman Catholics believe that entering Purgatory after death cleanses one of one's sins and makes one acceptable to enter Heaven. This is valid for "venial sins" only. Many within the Anglican Church also hold to this belief, despite their Protestant history. However, in Oriental Orthodox Churches, it is only God who has the final say on who enters Heaven. In the Eastern Orthodox Church, Heaven is understood as union and communion with the Triune God. Thus, Heaven is experienced by the Orthodox both as a reality inaugurated, anticipated and present here and now in the divine-human organism of the Christ's Body, the Church, and also as something future.In the Protestant traditions, entry into Heaven depends upon the Christian receiving God's grace through faith in Jesus. Protestant theology holds strongly that when Jesus died on the cross, he took upon himself the punishment for the world's sins.

So you're saying different emphases or different all-together?

[Sluggo 0]

What's the "difference?"

[SilentSnow 1]

I dont see any way out of this dilemma. There are 2 possibilities.-We cant change our minds or be forgiven after this life. God is therefore asadistic psychopath, making people suffer for all eternity with extremely little justification.-We can change our minds. There is simply no reason at all for religion in this life.If we do turn out to be wrong about God, we simply change our minds and get with the program.Since neither of these options are very palatable, most christians either ignore the question entirely, or pretend that under the first scenario God wouldnt actually be such a loathsome being.

[Loismustdie 0]

I dont see any way out of this dilemma. There are 2 possibilities.-We cant change our minds or be forgiven after this life. God is therefore asadistic psychopath, making people suffer for all eternity with extremely little justification.-We can change our minds. There is simply no reason at all for religion in this life.If we do turn out to be wrong about God, we simply change our minds and get with the program.Since neither of these options are very palatable, most christians either ignore the question entirely, or pretend that under the first scenario God wouldnt actually be such a loathsome being.

Or love him because he actually gave us a choice. He didn't have to. We could just all go to hell, just as easily, at his whim. When you accept an all powerful being you accept that the power is not yours. Personally, I see this as the biggest shortcoming of most humans- we cannot accept the fact that we don't have the power to make the rules. Someone else does, and no amount of whining and bitching and name calling can change that. I sympathize with you, I really do, because from what I can tell you are not a bad person, you are just flawed, like me. You're human, just not willing to try to be the best human you can be, as God defines. Not yet, anyway.

[SilentSnow 1]

Or love him because he actually gave us a choice. He didn't have to. We could just all go to hell, just as easily, at his whim. When you accept an all powerful being you accept that the power is not yours. Personally, I see this as the biggest shortcoming of most humans- we cannot accept the fact that we don't have the power to make the rules. Someone else does, and no amount of whining and bitching and name calling can change that. I sympathize with you, I really do, because from what I can tell you are not a bad person, you are just flawed, like me. You're human, just not willing to try to be the best human you can be, as God defines. Not yet, anyway.

Youre missing the point. In my example, the point is that we don't have even a remotely reasonable choice in the first scenario. And your "go to hell at his whim" argument is awfully weak. Thats like saying I love Stalin because he was just slightly less bad than Hitler. I realize the power is not mine. But dont you think that Christians should be able to come up with a version of God that actually compares favorably to an evil dictator? If God is going to punish us eternally for violating some vague rules that even Christians(let alone all the other religions) cant agree on, I would consider God's moral status to be worse than Hitler.To repeat myself, what I am not saying is that I am unwilling to follow the rules of christianity. Lets assume that miraculously some version of christianity actually turns out to be true. In my scenario, I would be following christianity to the letter, but God would still condemn me for all eternity.And you seem to be big on the "God is powerful, who cares about the justification for his actions argument". So does this mean if Satan managed to overthrow God you would start worshipping him?

[Loismustdie 0]

Youre missing the point. In my example, the point is that we don't have even a remotely reasonable choice in the first scenario. And your "go to hell at his whim" argument is awfully weak. Thats like saying I love Stalin because he was just slightly less bad than Hitler. I realize the power is not mine. But dont you think that Christians should be able to come up with a version of God that actually compares favorably to an evil dictator? If God is going to punish us eternally for violating some vague rules that even Christians(let alone all the other religions) cant agree on, I would consider God's moral status to be worse than Hitler.To repeat myself, what I am not saying is that I am unwilling to follow the rules of christianity. Lets assume that miraculously some version of christianity actually turns out to be true. In my scenario, I would be following christianity to the letter, but God would still condemn me for all eternity.And you seem to be big on the "God is powerful, who cares about the justification for his actions argument". So does this mean if Satan managed to overthrow God you would start worshipping him?

That's sort of my argument- what if that had happened? What if the battle had went differently, and God lost and Satan ruled supreme?I think that if that had happened I would not be given a choice,and Satan has only one goal- to inflict pain. As it is, that didn't happen, and God, through his love for humanity gives us a way to get to heaven- but, doesn't make it neccesary for LIFE, meaning you can do what you want, whenever you want, you just won't receive the rewards for living a more perfect existence. Which is a good thing for 2 reasons- one, you are not a robot, and 2, God knows that the people that truly love him are the ones that sacrifice the desires of this flesh to serve a higher calling, a more perfect existence. I will put it simply- God does not want you to go to hell, but he also will not force you to choose the right, because that proves nothing,not to yourself or to him. It takes the onus off of him when the choices are so blatantly obvious. Have sex with this person or no? Go to church on this day as commanded or no? Steal this or no? Lie to this person or no? All of these things, while sometimes arbitrary when looked at singularly, are things that when you choose the correct way you are a better person for it.

[zzz 0]

That's sort of my argument- what if that had happened? What if the battle had went differently, and God lost and Satan ruled supreme?I think that if that had happened I would not be given a choice,and Satan has only one goal- to inflict pain. As it is, that didn't happen, and God, through his love for humanity gives us a way to get to heaven- but, doesn't make it neccesary for LIFE, meaning you can do what you want, whenever you want, you just won't receive the rewards for living a more perfect existence. Which is a good thing for 2 reasons- one, you are not a robot, and 2, God knows that the people that truly love him are the ones that sacrifice the desires of this flesh to serve a higher calling, a more perfect existence. I will put it simply- God does not want you to go to hell, but he also will not force you to choose the right, because that proves nothing,not to yourself or to him. It takes the onus off of him when the choices are so blatantly obvious. Have sex with this person or no? Go to church on this day as commanded or no? Steal this or no? Lie to this person or no? All of these things, while sometimes arbitrary when looked at singularly, are things that when you choose the correct way you are a better person for it.

I happen to be more optimistic by believing that if God exists then he would give us choices after we die.

[DerekTah 0]

Or love him because he actually gave us a choice. He didn't have to. We could just all go to hell, just as easily, at his whim. When you accept an all powerful being you accept that the power is not yours. Personally, I see this as the biggest shortcoming of most humans- we cannot accept the fact that we don't have the power to make the rules. Someone else does, and no amount of whining and bitching and name calling can change that.

Wow, for the first time I'm actually in aggrement with you Lois.Though I disagree on the whole Satin overthrowing God (Satin has great power over man, no power over God)

[FOOSE1 0]

Most all Christians are pessimistic when it comes to the afterlife. You cannot prove that people will be miserable for eternity so why believe in that speculation and why preach it? The fact of the matter is we don't know what is going to happen when we die. A true optimist would say they believe that after you die the possibilities are endless. A more pessimistic view would be that after death it's possible you will be miserable for eternity and there is nothing you can do about it.

I won't speak for all Christians, but for this one, your comments are WAY off. If I had to guess . . . I would also agree that "most" christians, as you put it, would disagree with you as well. I am definately not pessimistic about the afterlife. I know exactly where I am going when I die. I don't look forward to dying (just like anyone else, I'm scared of it), but I know where I'm going when I do. So I think you are way off. "Most" real Christians understand that Jesus died for their sins and they are forgiven by God by the grace of Jesus Christ. As a Christian you accept Jesus into your life and know that when you die you will spend eternity in heaven. Hell is reserved for those who refuse to accept Jesus/God into their lives.Furthermore, Christians don't preach Hell in the sense that they may go there when they die. If anything they "preach" that if you do not accept Jesus into your heart then you will go there when you die.Sorry . . . you missed this one.

[zzz 0]

I won't speak for all Christians, but for this one, your comments are WAY off. If I had to guess . . . I would also agree that "most" christians, as you put it, would disagree with you as well. I am definately not pessimistic about the afterlife. I know exactly where I am going when I die. I don't look forward to dying (just like anyone else, I'm scared of it), but I know where I'm going when I do. So I think you are way off. "Most" real Christians understand that Jesus died for their sins and they are forgiven by God by the grace of Jesus Christ. As a Christian you accept Jesus into your life and know that when you die you will spend eternity in heaven. Hell is reserved for those who refuse to accept Jesus/God into their lives.Furthermore, Christians don't preach Hell in the sense that they may go there when they die. If anything they "preach" that if you do not accept Jesus into your heart then you will go there when you die.Sorry . . . you missed this one.

Christians believe they have to do something to get to heaven. A more optimistic view would be that you don't have to do anything to get to heaven. Also, you can't prove there is a hell. Again, the fact is no one knows what happens when we die. A Christians view on that fact is if you reject God, then God will reject you. When you die your choices end. A optimists view is that no matter what you do on Earth, God will allow you into heaven, and after death you have choices.

[speedz99 145]

I know exactly where I am going when I die.

I envy your ability to be so adamant that you know all the answers because of what a book from 2,000 years ago tells you.

[Mattnxtc 0]

few things:1. i bet sluggo used wikipedia to find out the info he did...2. christians are the ones with the positive attitude. Heck i get to live for eternity in heaven. How is that not something to look forward to. IT isnt pessimistic to say that nonbelievers go to hell...IT sucks for u but im not pessimistic about it. Thats just the reality of the matter. To assume that when u die there is nothing and that this life was all u got is a very pessimistic view though. I mean whats the point of life if u just die and thats it.

[DerekTah 0]

Christians believe they have to do something to get to heaven. A more optimistic view would be that you don't have to do anything to get to heaven.

Sound like a more selfish/lazy view to me.

[zzz 0]

Sound like a more selfish/lazy view to me.

???....I don't understand how believing in total freedom after death is a bad thing. I'd rather hear someone preach about being totally free after death then being trapped in hell forever if you don't do what the Bible tells you to do.

[Loismustdie 0]

I happen to be more optimistic by believing that if God exists then he would give us choices after we die.

That's a nice sentiment. Unfortunately it can't be backed with scripture.

???....I don't understand how believing in total freedom after death is a bad thing. I'd rather hear someone preach about being totally free after death then being trapped in hell forever if you don't do what the Bible tells you to do.

See above statement.

[zzz 0]

That's a nice sentiment. Unfortunately it can't be backed with scripture. See above statement.

Again, you can't prove the scriptures are God's instructions. Your OPINION is that total freedom is highly unlikely. Why not have a more happy OPINION?

[DerekTah 0]

???....I don't understand how believing in total freedom after death is a bad thing. I'd rather hear someone preach about being totally free after death then being trapped in hell forever if you don't do what the Bible tells you to do.

Well I would say the idea of "total freedom" is a bad thing because it sounds like "did you rape children, beat your spouce, massacre people because you like the looks on their face as you killed them, well none of that matters. You can still go to heaven even with no remorse" "Even if you always turn your back on God and want nothing to do with him the promise land is yours". You may rather have someone preach about that, I wouldn't.